Thanks for the support and answers, Gavin! They weren't colorful until recently! But they've certainly become colorful since I've been looking for them in the court records! (They were mystery people until I happened to find Wm Innes (the son) in the court records and by looking HIM up, happened to find out his father was also ... an accomplice of some sort!) Since finding that generation back in my Innes line (about 10 years ago) they've just been names. This just wasn't exactly the character I was expecting! I believe the utterance was of forged notes. I am ordering the files later this month and will know more, but an inventory of one lists a guinea note, so I'd think these may be paper documents?? (Then there were other items too fragile to copy). No coins were mentioned. But, your bringing up the question of coins vs paper is more than valid. I posted a query about 2 months ago about nailer/nail mailer and change keeper as occupations and responses came back about nailers related to the weaving business in setting pins/nails upon which the fabric was woven. So, now this does raise that question again. Hmmm. Well, I guess everythings back on the table about what they were doing. (What WERE they doing!) But the father was also a change keeper, which several on the list indicate he kept an inn or public house. I see in the 1818 City Directory that there were two main hotels, but neither were in West Gate, which is where they were "of". Son James was a sawmaker/saw repairman so had access to tools and would have learned the trade somewhere. (A trade passed down to several sons and then grandsons on two continents!) (I have a wooden chest of pine, with wooden pegs, that I suspect may have been made by him. It came to America bef 1890 with granddaughter Juliana Innes Powrie and had everything she owned.) You and Gordon have both corrected me/informed me about maiden names. I was wondering about that. I had earlier found wife Helen Hay in the 1841 census living in the household of (or adjacent to), son James Innes, but under the surname Hay. As usual, questions answered lead to more questions unanswered. But, I'm happy to know more than just his name, marriage and names of the two sons! Can't wait to see the court records (father and son) ... but they say it takes a month and I have to pay abt $240 US (160 B.P.) for copies. Thanks again, Gavin. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gavin Bell" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 5:51 AM Subject: Re: [ANGUS] Dundee -- Citizen arrested, tried, prisoner ... England; would he have returned??? > Marilyn Arnold wrote: > >>Perhaps this isn't the right list for this question. ... >> > > It definitely is! Thank you for such a colourful account. I can't > answer all your questions, but here are one or two thoughts: > >>... >>... Married and had children. They >>(and Helen Hay Innes, who took back her maiden name) were buried in the >>Howff. >> > > I doubt if Helen did "take back her maiden name" - she probably never > lost it. The convention of the wife adopting the husband's surname was > at that date not universal in Scotland. If Jean Smith married John > Brown, she became "Jean Smith or Brown", a formulation that still occurs > today in formal contexts such as Wills. In the Census, she was just as > likely to be listed as "Jean Smith" as "Jean Brown" and if she was > widowed, she might become either "Widow Smith" or "Widow Brown" - one > ancestor of mine seems to have answered to both. > >>Son William, like his father, was also a nailer/nail maker, and was >>also involved in "utterance"/forgery. >> > > I'm intrigued by the coincidence of two nail makers becoming forgers. > Do you know what it was they "uttered"? I'm guessing it was counterfeit > coins, as paper money was at that date something of a rarity, and > consequently difficult to pass off. A nail maker would have a forge and > anvil, so perhaps there was a built-in professional temptation to start > stamping out half-crowns made of lead! > >>... >> >>Question -- Would he have returned to Dundee or stayed in London? >> > > I really don't believe that we can, with any confidence, say what our > ancestors might or might not do in particular circumstances. It is > unlikely that we can ever discover all the relevant factors which might > have had an effect on their decisions, and we certainly can't get inside > their minds. > >>How >>difficult was transportation in that time period? If he came back to his >>wife and son James and young family, I'm assuming this would have been by >>ship? >> > > That would have been cheaper than the overland journey. > >>How long would it have taken? >> > > The first "steam packets" were by then employed on the more lucrative > routes, such as carrying mail across the English Channel and Irish Sea, > but I suspect that the Dundee to London route was still covered by > sailing ships, which necessarily were at the mercy of the weather, and > did not run to fixed timetables. I would expect the journey to last > some days, perhaps (with contrary winds) as much as a week. > >>Were prisoners given any money when >>released? If he had no money upon release what would he have done? As a >>prisoner, would he have been allowed to send and receive mail? >> > > I don't know whether prisoners could receive mail. But this was before > the introduction of the "Penny Post", so mail charges were normally paid > by the recipient, not the sender. Once he was released, of course, he > could have sent a message himself, requesting replies to an inn - or > perhaps to the shipping office.. > >>Could family >>have sent him money for the return? >> > > I think it likely that the regular ships between London and the Scottish > ports might well have acted as carriers of letters or parcels, just as > carters did on land (and "country buses" did in the days of my youth). > Or the family could have paid for his passage in Dundee. > >>How would he have been received in the >>community as a former convict and prisoner? Would he have been shunned >>and >>unable to find work? >> >> > > "Shunning" strikes me as typical of small, inward-looking societies. He > would probably have been well advised not to seek out the company of > those whom he might have practised his "utterance" on, but Dundee was by > then embarked on its great 19th-century expansion, so would have offered > (a) a measure of anonymity, and (b) a growing range of employments in > the jute mills. > > > > Gavin Bell > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message