alfredmiln@aol.com wrote: >I am sorry to say that I find the above site a nuisance.There is not sufficient information in the heading to direct the reader to what the content is about.? > There are problems with messages from the Gateway, because, in the form in which they initially appear on the "Message Board" they get their context by being threaded together, a connection which does not survive the process of being "echoed" to the List. We did debate, long ago, whether or not such messages should be echoed to the List. I voted that they shouldn't, but I was outvoted. So I have learned to live with the problem. >I don't want to open every email to decide if it is important > That does sound rather like cutting off your nose to spite your face! I find I can tell quite quickly whether or not the substance of any message interests me, and if it doesn't, the "Delete" button is ready to hand. >and I am finding less individuals on the site recording information.I am sure that many individuals-like myself(12 years)?are not posting messages as we did in the past. > > That, of course, becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you want more traffic on the List, then send us a query or a comment. Gavin Bell

When Isabella CRAIK died in 1898 her estate of £103 0s 11d was left under the terms of her will of 12 August 1892 to 15 grandnieces and 4 grandnephews. She was born 9 October 1810 at Nether Tenements, Brechin, the daughter of George CRAIK and Jean LOW. She was probably in domestic service for all of her working life, and finding her in the Census records 1851-1891 is proving elusive. I am trying to identify all the links with the relevant births, marriages and deaths, and one in particular is sending me round in circles. Any help would be appreciated if someone recognises her. "Elizabeth GALL, presently residing in Edinburgh, daughter of the late Mrs Elizabeth CRAIK or LYALL" who received a chest of drawers and 1/15th of the estate. There is an Elizabeth CRAIK who married Charles LYALL who had Thomas, Mary and Elizabeth. The daughter Elizabeth was born 11 February 1843 at Laurencekirk and died in 1898 when her usual residence was given as 59 Albert Street, Edinburgh. Isabella had been servant, along with her niece, to Charles and Elizabeth LYALL in 1841 when she was aged 30. Elizabeth's mother is possibly the daughter of John CRAIK and Mary FULLARTON, baptised 8 November 1803. John's parentage is not known. No explanation has been found for the GALL - no trace of a marriage, nor that she was illegitimate. Can anyone help me clear up this mystery? Thanks John

I agree with Leslie, I very seldom read the gateway posts. I find them out of context most of the time because of the thread system. If I want to see what is going on on a message board, I can go there and search for a topic I am interested in. Heather SK. Canada Lesley Robertson wrote: > > Now that it's one way, and those of us on the list have > to log into the board to reply, I don't bother reading the message board stuff. I'm not > going to keep loggong in and loggin out as answers occur to me,. > > Lesley Robertson > > _________________________________________________________________ > See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ANGUS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >

As a relatively new member of several lists, I too have wondered why there are both lists and message boards on the Rootsweb site. The message board postings can by quite cryptic. However, I wouldn't like to lose the messages as I have come up with at least as many valuable connections from the message boards as the lists. One solution to receiving all the unwelcome message is to subscribe to the digest which usually comes once or twice a day. It's very easy to whip through or ignore those message board items then. Alison Vancouver > > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 03:39:41 -0500 > From: alfredmiln@aol.com > Subject: [ANGUS] Gc-Gateway > To: ANGUS-L@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <8CB5EF2691153C9-B20-1F18@mblk-d16.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I am sorry to say that I find the above site a nuisance.There is not > sufficient information in the heading to direct the reader to what > the content is about.?I don't want to open every email to decide if > it is important and I am finding less individuals on the site > recording information.I am sure that many individuals-like myself(12 > years)?are not posting messages as we did in the past. > > Comments would be appreciated > > ?????????????????? > Alf________________________________________________________________________ > Get a FREE AOL Email account with unlimited storage. Experience > Email and instant messaging together - chat while you mail and mail > while you chat! Register for your free email account at http://free.aol.com.au >

I am sorry to say that I find the above site a nuisance.There is not sufficient information in the heading to direct the reader to what the content is about.?I don't want to open every email to decide if it is important and I am finding less individuals on the site recording information.I am sure that many individuals-like myself(12 years)?are not posting messages as we did in the past. Comments would be appreciated ?????????????????? Alf________________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE AOL Email account with unlimited storage. Experience Email and instant messaging together - chat while you mail and mail while you chat! Register for your free email account at http://free.aol.com.au

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: gbell152 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5515.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.3.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: You wrote: "But I or we were allowed to look for a birth I was sure of, from other sources, and it hadn't made it to Edinburgh." The chances that the copy Register 'did not make it to Edinburgh' are nil. The local Registrars were subject to regular (usually annual) inspection, and if the first copy did get lost in transit, then the Registrar General would promptly require the creation of a new copy. It is simply not credible that a gap in the records could have occurred. What can happen is that entries in the paper Registers get missed or mistranscribed in the process of indexing, and consequently do not turn up as expected as the result of a search on Scotlandspeople. An informative and well-illustrated account of the GROS and its records, both pre- and post-1855, is available as "Jock Tamson's Bairns" (ISBN 1 874451 59 1) Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: maryschacht Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5515.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.3.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: thank you for the correction! I thought it was the family, as the one date given in the family bible. Obviously the church and family caught up. the bible did clearly give birth dates..so i have correct year for them. I made a mistake with two copies rather than three, but going to the regional repository is possible. I'm a tourist, and a hobby genealogist. I was travelling with a professional friend. But I or we were allowed to look for a birth I was sure of, from other sources, and it hadn't made it to Edinburgh. This, like my viewing the "non-conformist index at the NAS reading room, was a one-time reference check, so I shouldn't make generalities. I spoke, out of turn, and would go with my more learned friends on the list...especially native Scots! It has been several years since I was in Scotland doing "boots on the ground" research. I should not be advising folks.. but I meant well! We can agree that there are records outside the GROS and IGI. which are other places to look. I eagerly await the burial records, but am not "holding my breathe". I'm doing English members of the family, while I wait. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: GordonPertJohnson Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5515.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Can I add that familysearch/the IGI is merely an INDEX to registers (plus entries submitted by individual Mormons from a variety of sources, such as family bibles). Often there is much more data in the original OPR, and so you should try to read the OPR itself, either an online image of scotlandspeople, or on microfilm at a Mormon FHC, or most public libraries in Scotland, as appropriate to the location. A "marriage" entry in the IGI/familysearch will usually be the calling of banns, and sometimes the apparent marriage never went ahead, as one discovers on reading the OPR. Marriage entries in OPRs are often little more than the names of the couple, but baptisms often give the father's occupation, and/or the place of residence of the couple. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: GordonPertJohnson Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5515.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.3/mb.ashx Message Board Post: ** The idea that families registered all their children at one time is erroneous, in that children's baptisms were intended to be registered BY THE CHURCH, not by the family, but through forgetfulness and lost information, a number of baptisms failed to get registered at the correct time. Years afterwards, when a later child is being baptised, the minister might ask about the baptisms of earlier children, then, finding that they were not in the register, ask the family for the date of those baptisms, and add them at the time of the latest baptism registration. The church registers were not public records, so not accessible to neighbours. What is this mysterious "Non-Conformist Index" you mention? The Church of Scotland was the conformist church in Scotland, just as the Church of England was the conformist church in England. Gavin is correct about there being only two copies of the civil registers. The census returns do not give any description of occupations. It is correct that occasionally one of the missing OPRs turns up, usually held by a family whose forebear was one of the ministers, and unaware that these registers out to be handed over to their rightful owners. The mortcloth records and other pseudo-death records (coffin accounts, etc.)are all part of the microfilmed OPRs, though not indexed by the Mormons. There is a national project for local FHSs to index all death and gravestone records, but it will take years to complete. Gordon. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

Jeff, Sorry I'm so late in getting back to you. I can't tell you whether 58 Market St still exists, but there is a Brown Horse Hotel listed at 60 Market St on one of the square ads that surround my Brechin map. Unfortunately my computer is refusing to get me to Google, so can't get an e-mail address [if they have one. Sun. night often presents an overload for my internet connection. ] There also is a Dalhousie Bar at # 1-- must be right across from the car park which is on the corner. Other than this, the local library at CULBRELIB@angus.gov.uk is wonderful! They'll have a directory and perhaps some old pictures. The Brechin Museum . may also have pictures in their many scrapbooks. of 58 Market. The lib can tell you how to contact them. Have a card somewhere, but can't seem to locate it at the moment....[Surprise!] Papers accumulates so......Good luck! Marilyn Threlkeld mjmt@camalott.com ----- Original Message ----- From: <gc-gateway@rootsweb.com> To: <ANGUS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 5:33 PM Subject: Re: [ANGUS] Stewarts from Brechin > This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > > Author: jandrosoff > Surnames: > Classification: queries > > Message Board URL: > > http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/1058.1.1.1.1/mb.ashx > > Message Board Post: > > Curious although my grandmother's family wasn't specifically from Brechin > she was born there in 1904 @ 58 market Street (if anyone listening can get > me a picture). Her mom's family was from Glenesk, Tarfside.. > > Jeff > > Important Note: > The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you > would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link > above and respond on the board. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ANGUS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: gbell152 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5515.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2/mb.ashx Message Board Post: You wrote: "There were 3 copies made of the record. Original record, regional copy and the GROS copy." I think you are mistaken in that. The original legislation which set up Civil Registration clearly states that the Registers are to be kept "in duplicate", ie that there shall be an original and one copy, which is to be sent to GROS at the end of each year. The originals were all initially retained by the Registar who compiled them, but in more recent times, the older ones have been sent to a single "Regional Repository". Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

Bank St is a very short street, containing part of the side of the church fronting on the intersecting st. [South Esk], then a vicarage [or manse], and a day care center which used to be the Free Presby. church bldg many years ago. [Way before the war] Then there are just a few small bldgs to the corner of Panmure. The other side of Bank has residences which seem of a more recent nature than most of the homes in the area as they have front lawns--I seem to remember several apts and some other bldgs, too. That could be the area you're searching for. The local library is wonderful about helping. Try to be as specific as possible as they stay very busy . You can reach them at CULBRELIB@angus.gov.uk Good luck! Marilyn Threlkeld mjmt@camalott.com ----- Original Message ----- From: <gc-gateway@rootsweb.com> To: <ANGUS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 3:35 PM Subject: [ANGUS] Territorial Army Hall Bank Str. Brechin > This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > > Author: gwatson000126 > Surnames: > Classification: queries > > Message Board URL: > > http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5511/mb.ashx > > Message Board Post: > > Does anyone recollect or know of a Barrage Balloon Training Ground before > World War 2 as it is no longer there. It was a territorial Army Hall I was > told on Bank Street in Brechin. Local people would of trained here before > they went off to war 1939-1945. I am interested in pictures or where I > would find out about those who trained there. > > Thankyou > Gail > > Important Note: > The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you > would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link > above and respond on the board. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ANGUS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: ANGELAH Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5515.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: You are all providing a wealth of information, my many thanks. I didn't realize how little I knew! To answer Gordon's question on dates - Isaac and Mary were married in 1836. Their first two children were born in 1837 and 1838, but their baptisms do not appear in the OPR's on scotlandspeople site (which, you pointed out, may be a 'clue'). By 1841, they were in England where their third child was born. In 1844, they left for the US so were gone before civil registrations began. Isaac and Mary's marriage is included in the OPR's on the scotlandspeople site, and the extract is also listed on familysearch which I assume is the same record on microfilm. I can't find the first two children's bapstim records on either site. I have a copy of the third child's English civil birth record from another researcher. The remaining children were born in the US. I appreciate the ideas on where else to search - the local churches, alternate churches, trades organizations. I'm not sure if any of these would be accessible from a distance but can check. At least there is a glimmer of hope that there is more information to be found! Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: maryschacht Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5515.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Thanks for the excellent explaination of How members registered in different faiths. Some children were baptized, in the Established Kirk, because they were members of that community. I've seen entire families register them all at once in the Presbyterian church. So neighbors knew they were baptized. Important for later marriages to Presbyterian church members. I only mention the non-conformist index as another place to search, which is the question at hand. Checking regional repositories,and not just the Central (GROS)is another place to check in case the second copy made it to that archive, but failed to send the third copy to the main repository in Edinbugh. This refers to the civil registration only. There were 3 copies made of the record. Original record, regional copy and the GROS copy. OPRs are missing too. Most by loss over time or fire. The OPRs are supposed to be turned over, but if a period is missing, checking with the church of origin, might locate entry books never turned over to the GROS. The LDS never filmed at anywhere but the GROS, so their copy of the copies, in incomplete. They never filmed the other religions and were stopped by the crown from completion of filming. It was the Crown's decision.. not the fault of the Lds. I'm just saying searching the Scottish records AND the LDS would be wise. Libraries have addition information with Census, books on the local area, books on a person's trade. The Census books which tell enumerators all the professions on a farm, with a brief description, are a gold mine for lesrning life on a farm. The horse handler had a different trade from the one working with the cows or sheep. Kirk Session notes are always an interesting read, and you may find your family in the paupers roll. I've heard the mort cloth rentals for deaths in the parish, have been taken out of the Kirk Sessions and added to the GROS/Scotlandspeople.gov website. But I have not found any myself? Does someone else know for sure? Doctor records in small villages are a gold mine, but I'm not sure the majority of Surgeons want us poking through their records. (which were passed down from other doctors upon their deaths or retirement. I've had luck with two... Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: Forfarian Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5515.1.1.1.1.1.1.2/mb.ashx Message Board Post: You cannot safely assume that either Mary or Isaac was baptised into the same denomination in which they were married. I have lots of cases of people being baptised in one denomination but married in a different one, often because their spouse was from a different denomination. Nor would the 'Scotch Presbyterian Church' necessarily be the Church of Scotland. As Gordon Johnson has already pointed out, there were umpteen presbyterian churches, sects and denominations in Scotland besides the Church of Scotland, which is sometimes (and not entirely accurately, but I won't go into the distinction here) referred to as the 'Established Church'. In Scotland, there was and is no such denomination as 'Scotch Presbyterian' so I cannot say which of the many Scottish presbyterian denominations this church would have been affiliated to. To get some idea of just what a can of worms this is, have a look at this diagram: http://uk.geocities.com/edward.andrews@btinternet.com/chart.html but even this is only part of the story. It doesn't mention Bereans, Glassites, Antipaedobaptists, Methodists, Congregationalists and no doubt dozens of other presbyterian sects I have never heard of either. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: GordonPertJohnson Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5515.1.1.1.1.1.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Dates, please? The OPRs are the abbreviation for the registers of the Church of Scotland, but as these parish ministers had a theoretical responsibility for EVERYONE in the parish, whether members of the Church of Scotland or not, you can at times find baptisms there which occurred in other churches. As regards marriages, the banns were required by law to be called in the parish church (Church of Scotland), no matter where the subsequent wedding was performed. So you often find in the OPRs details of banns for a wedding, but no baptisms for the couple's children. This is a good indication that the couple were members of another denomination, or perhaps non-churchgoers. This is particularly noticeable in the years 1843-1854, when a large proportion of the population moved over to the Free Church (formed 1843 as a result of a religious schism). Once civil registration started (in 1855), all children are recorded by civil birth certificates. You can often find the missing earlier children in the 1851 and 1861 census returns. The term "Scotch Presbyterian Church" is unknown in Scotland, and is clearly written by someone unfamiliar with the Scottish churches. If it was later in the 91th century, it could refer to the United Presbyterian Church of Scotland, which amalgamated with the Free Church of Scotland to form the United Free Church of Scotland in 1900. The United Presbyterian church was an amalgamation of the Relief congregations and the United Seccession Church. You can see why the question is complicated! Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: ANGELAH Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5515.1.1.1.1.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Since Mary and Isaac were married in a Presbyterian church (and listed in OPR's), I assumed they were both raised that way and they would have been baptised in the same church. Mary's obituary stated "Early in life she united with the Scotch Presbyterian church, and was a member of the Presbyterian church in Bonaparte for years.". The Scotch Presbyterian Church would be the Church of Scotland, would it not? But the way this sentence reads, perhaps she was NOT part of this church when born. Interesting. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: GordonPertJohnson Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5515.1.1.1.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: This is a misunderstanding of church organisation in Scotland. There were (and are) a number of presbyterian churches in Scotland, not just the Church of Scotland; but the IGI/familysearch and scotlandspeople are based primarily on Church of Scotland registers. Depending on the date, other presbyterian churches include Associate congregations; Free Church of Scotland; United Free Church of Scotland; United Presbyterian Church, plus other smaller groupings which may lay claim to be presbyterian. Other churches not covered by these online indexes include the Roman Catholic Church; and Scottish Episcopal Church; Baptist Church; Congregational Church; etc., so try to establish what church your ancestors were affiliated to. Gordon. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: maryschacht Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5515.1.1.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Scotlandspeople.gov is the website arm of the GROS. It only contains established church (Presbyterian records). If your family was another religion, looking at the GROS will not help you. The LDS incomplete filming of the GROS, is therefore based on Presbyterian records only. Try the non-conformist index at the NAS, National archive of Scotland. Good luck to you Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

An International Clan Scott Gathering is planned for September in Scotland, as part of Homecoming Scotland 2009. More information on the various events are available through http://clanscottsociety.org/linked/BordersGathering2009.html and through the Clan Chief's site http://www.bowhill.org/public/news/homecoming20091 There is a great line up of events and tickets for the various events which can now be booked online. With limited tickets for these events, if you are considering attending likely best to act quickly. Please spread the word by cross posting to appropriate lists you may be a member of, or forward the information to anyone with Scott ancestry. Sincerely, Ian Scott http://clanscott.blogspot.com -- Ian & Daphne Scott 51 Ambrose St. Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, Canada, C1A 3P5 (902) 892-5796 scotts@pei.sympatico.ca