----- Original Message ----- From: "Gavin Bell" <g.bell@which.net> To: <abruce@madasafish.com>; <angus@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 7:40 PM Subject: Re: [ANGUS] Where were Scots baptisms held? > Adrian B wrote: > >>Where were Scots baptisms held? Particularly those in Church of Scotland, >>1780s? >> >> > > I doubt if there can be any simple one-size-fits-all answer to this > question. On the one hand, there had been, from the early days of the > Kirk of Scotland, a strong presumption in favour of baptism "in the face > of the congregation", but on the other, the risks of bringing a sickly > child to church on poor or non-existent roads meant that there was, from > equally early on, a "get-out" for home baptism if the child was poorly. > > And just as burial inside the Kirk building was (a) strictly forbidden, > and (b) available on payment of a hefty premium, so, too, "private" > baptism was often possible in exchange for a donation to the Poors' > Fund. It is likely, too, that practice varied, from place to place and > over time. > >>... >> >>What's prompted the question is a baptism I have (actually from Caputh in >>Perthshire) that says "10 July <1789> Andrew Thomson in Wester Caputh had >>a >>child ... born & baptised July 17". The word "born" is an interpolation. >>Dates of birth are not normally seen in Caputh at this time - at least, >>not >>in the examples I have. The most logical meaning is that she was born on >>10 >>July and baptised on 17 July - but why would the minister record the birth >>date? I know it happens in lots of other places - but it seems most >>untypical here at this time. >> >> > > Even so, I would be wary of reading too much into a single untypical > entry - the Clerk may simply have muddled up the weeks. Both 10th and > 17th July 1789 were Fridays, so the likelihood is that the child was not > baptised in the Kirk - there was often a midweek service, as well as the > main service on Sunday, but not on Fridays. > >>Alternatively, in the Church of England we often find double baptisms - >>the >>first is a private baptism at home, and the second a church ceremony >>receiving the child into the church. This reputedly happens for sickly >>children who might not otherwise survive to their baptism. So an >>alternative >>is that she was, perhaps, both born and baptised on 10 July, then received >>into the church on 17 July. But I don't know if this happens in Scotland. >> >> > > I don't believe it did. Baptism represented the individual's entry into > the Kirk, so it is hard to imagine it being repeated. > > > Gavin Bell > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ANGUS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > __________ NOD32 4261 (20090720) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > >

Thanks Gavin. An interesting and insightful reply - no, I didn't expect there to be a single answer but I feel I have more of an expectation now. Adrian -----Original Message----- From: Gavin Bell [mailto:g.bell@which.net] Sent: Mon 20 July 2009 18:41 To: abruce@madasafish.com; angus@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ANGUS] Where were Scots baptisms held? Adrian B wrote: >Where were Scots baptisms held? Particularly those in Church of >Scotland, 1780s? > > I doubt if there can be any simple one-size-fits-all answer to this question. <<snipped>>

Adrian B wrote: >Where were Scots baptisms held? Particularly those in Church of Scotland, >1780s? > > I doubt if there can be any simple one-size-fits-all answer to this question. On the one hand, there had been, from the early days of the Kirk of Scotland, a strong presumption in favour of baptism "in the face of the congregation", but on the other, the risks of bringing a sickly child to church on poor or non-existent roads meant that there was, from equally early on, a "get-out" for home baptism if the child was poorly. And just as burial inside the Kirk building was (a) strictly forbidden, and (b) available on payment of a hefty premium, so, too, "private" baptism was often possible in exchange for a donation to the Poors' Fund. It is likely, too, that practice varied, from place to place and over time. >... > >What's prompted the question is a baptism I have (actually from Caputh in >Perthshire) that says "10 July <1789> Andrew Thomson in Wester Caputh had a >child ... born & baptised July 17". The word "born" is an interpolation. >Dates of birth are not normally seen in Caputh at this time - at least, not >in the examples I have. The most logical meaning is that she was born on 10 >July and baptised on 17 July - but why would the minister record the birth >date? I know it happens in lots of other places - but it seems most >untypical here at this time. > > Even so, I would be wary of reading too much into a single untypical entry - the Clerk may simply have muddled up the weeks. Both 10th and 17th July 1789 were Fridays, so the likelihood is that the child was not baptised in the Kirk - there was often a midweek service, as well as the main service on Sunday, but not on Fridays. >Alternatively, in the Church of England we often find double baptisms - the >first is a private baptism at home, and the second a church ceremony >receiving the child into the church. This reputedly happens for sickly >children who might not otherwise survive to their baptism. So an alternative >is that she was, perhaps, both born and baptised on 10 July, then received >into the church on 17 July. But I don't know if this happens in Scotland. > > I don't believe it did. Baptism represented the individual's entry into the Kirk, so it is hard to imagine it being repeated. Gavin Bell

In a message dated 7/20/2009 12:31:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, abruce@madasafish.com writes: Where were Scots baptisms held? Particularly those in Church of Scotland, 1780s? Once upon a time I would have assumed "in the Church" but since I eventually found out that marriages weren't (far too frivolous, I think a lister implied), maybe I shouldn't assume. -------------------------- This isn't exactly a firm answer to your question, but I was reminded of a story told in Sir J. M. Barrie's "Auld Licht Idylls" (published ca 1913) where he discusses the christenings held in his fictional town of Thrums (supposedly based on his own home town of Kirriemuir). I quote: "How the minister would have borne himself in the event of a member of his congregation's wanting the baptism to take place at home it is not easy to say; but I shudder to think of the public prayers for the parents that would certainly have followed. The child was carried to the kirk through rain, or snow, or sleet, or wind, the father took his seat alone in the front pew, under the minister's eye, and the service was prolonged far on into the afternoon." Barrie goes on to tell how they vied to have their children christened as soon as possible. "Among the wives she was esteemed a poor body whose infant did not see the inside of the kirk within a fortnight of its birth. ...That was a good and creditable birth which took place early in the week, thus allowing time for suitable christening preparations; while to be born on a Friday or a Saturday was to humiliate your parents, besides being an extremely ominous beginning for yourself." He then tells the story of an elder's wife who gave birth at 9:45 on a Saturday night, and the child was presented for baptism the next day. "Briefly it amounted to this: that a bairn born within two hours of midnight on Saturday could not have been ready for christening at the kirk next day without the breaking of the Sabbath." Unfortunately for this family, a neighborhood busy-body had spied on them when seeing lights on after midnight, and testified against them, and the father ended up tendering his resignation of church office. Irene, in Michigan **************What's for dinner tonight? Find quick and easy dinner ideas for any occasion. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?ncid=emlcntusfood00000008)

Where were Scots baptisms held? Particularly those in Church of Scotland, 1780s? Once upon a time I would have assumed "in the Church" but since I eventually found out that marriages weren't (far too frivolous, I think a lister implied), maybe I shouldn't assume. What's prompted the question is a baptism I have (actually from Caputh in Perthshire) that says "10 July <1789> Andrew Thomson in Wester Caputh had a child ... born & baptised July 17". The word "born" is an interpolation. Dates of birth are not normally seen in Caputh at this time - at least, not in the examples I have. The most logical meaning is that she was born on 10 July and baptised on 17 July - but why would the minister record the birth date? I know it happens in lots of other places - but it seems most untypical here at this time. Alternatively, in the Church of England we often find double baptisms - the first is a private baptism at home, and the second a church ceremony receiving the child into the church. This reputedly happens for sickly children who might not otherwise survive to their baptism. So an alternative is that she was, perhaps, both born and baptised on 10 July, then received into the church on 17 July. But I don't know if this happens in Scotland. Also - in Dundee I do find children in certain families clearly born and baptised the same day - and it seems unlikely that a new-born should be taken through the streets to church on the day of their birth. Grateful for any thoughts over where Scots baptisms took place. Adrian B

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: lascot29 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/159.389.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: To update my address - mhelens@bellsouth.net Helen Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: AlmaMacPherson Surnames: Mudie Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5632.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Hi I have a Peter and a Catherine Mudie in my tree as well and I would be interested to know if we are on the same tree. Contact me almamac@xtra.co.nz if you like. Regards Alma Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: KathrynMudie Surnames: ? Classification: lookup Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5632/mb.ashx Message Board Post: I HAVE TRACED THE MUDIE NAME THUS FAR TO THE ABOVE AND CANNOT SEEM TO GO ANY FARTHER. I KNOW I HAVE LIVING RELATIVES IN GLASCOW AND EDINBURGH. I MET THEM WHEN I WAS 11 AND AM NOW 60. SO I AM TRYING TO LOCATE THE LIVING AND THE DECEASED. I AM NEW TO THIS RESEARCH. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

Page 5 (Month/day) (Year) (Names and places) Jan 18 1724 David Bathie in Woodhill and ? Dickie were Marryed These were the Last that Mr Archbald did Mairie July 28 1724 Robert Robertson and Jean Matthew were Married April 8 1725 James Thomson and Magdalen Paton were Married Jun 17 1725 John Thomson and Jean Storier were Marryed Julie 28 1725 Patrick Kill and Helen Bruce were married Janr 27 1726 Arthur Blair weawer in Buden & Eliza Thomson were Mar Feb 3 1726 James Kid in Buden and Elizabeth Paton were Mairred March 11 1726 Mr William Dall Minister of the Gospel at Barrie and Mrs Rachel Rutrck war marryed Julie 15 1726 Robt Mair and Eliz Crafourd were Married Julie 26 1726 Robert Foot weaver in the Buddon and Elix Nicol were Mard Novr 10 1726 Alexr Ferrier weaver in Barrie and Margt Mair were Mar Novr 24 1726 John Black, weaver in Carnoustie and Eliz Kid were Mar Novr 28 1726 Patrick Morison & Anna Beaton were mairyed January 30 1727 Robt Chaplin & Christian Clerk were mairyed June 1 1727 James Ramsay & Bessie Black were married June 15 1727 John Bouchard & Agnes Clerk were married June 27 1727 Robert Gray & Mary Bool were married Aprile 15 1728 Andrew Mill & Agnes Ormond were married July 11 1728 John Nish & Margaret Ramsay were married July 12 1728 Dav Lowson & Margaret Aimer were married July 26 1728 John Burns & Margaret Williamson were married August 14 1728 Andrew Mill & Agnes Ormond were married Novr 7 1728 Robert Kyd & Barbara Scott were married Novr 15 1728 David Thorntoun & Isobel Crammond were married June 18 1729 David Dalrymple & Jean Miln were married June 28 1729 William Dempster gardener & Grisel Scot were married March 24 1730 James Aimer wright & Margt Smith were married May 22 1730 James Guild in Lochside & Barbara Mathew were married June 25 1730 John Smith & Helen Anderson were married June 26 1730 William Smith & Helen Davidson were married Augt 27 1730 Alexr Kirkaldie in Balskelly & Elsp Petillow were Married Decr 22 1730 David Morham & Margt Small were married Febry 11 1731 George Peter in Elshenure & Agnes Crawfurd were marryd May 28 1731 David Henderson & Isobel Clerk were married June 24 1731 David Miller & Janet Clerk were married July 5 1731 David Spankie & Margt Shepherd were married Augt 30 1731 James Cary & Agnes Ramsay were married Octr 22 1731 John Smith & Jean Robertson were married Novr 26 1731 John Ramsay in the Parish of Monikie & Helen Gowan in the Parish of St Vigens were married Decr 30 1731 James Muireson & Isobel Young were married Aprile 28 1732 John Dargie & Elizabeth Gibson were married June 16 1732 James Guild & Barbara Airmer were married June 16 1732 William Templeman & Mary Middleton were married June 21 1732 James Spence & Elsp Kyd were married

Adrian said: > FYI - Unless I'm mistaken there has never been a requirement to produce a > proof of marriage certificate when registering a birth. (Mark Herber says > something similar in "Ancestral Trails".) Having said that, Scots birth > certificates do state the date and place of marriage and I note that the > current Dundee registrar's site says "If the parents are married to each > other, it would be helpful to take their marriage certificate when the birth > is to be registered". However, "helpful" sounds like they can't enforce it > and if someone says something about their "marriage", I imagine it would > have to be taken as truth. All comments gratefully accepted! ** It is a common occurrence in birth certificates of the early 20th century to have a marriage place and date on the birth certificate which is totally spurious! This avoided the dreaded stamp (or handwritten) "ILLEGITIMATE" being placed on the birth certificate. An illegitimate birth was still a social stigma back then, and people would go a long way to avoid this (except contraception!). While giving false information was still a criminal offence, it was the lesser of two social evils if you got away with it - and most did. Gordon Johnson.

I have Kaspersky 2009 and find it wipes some messages it considers spam. I have to check the archives to see the message. I've had a lot of problems with emails and websites since it was installed. It seems to consider most things as spam or virused! Barb

This is an IT issue triggered by family history - Just to warn anyone using Kaspersky Internet Security 2009, who wants to look at the Library Catalog on www.familysearch.org I could get to the enquiry screens but I got a totally blank screen back in reply. Turned out that Kaspersky Internet Security 2009 had decided the response screens looked like Banner Ads and blocked them accordingly. Fortunately the sites can be "white listed", which tells KIS to allow the outputs. For anyone with KIS, the option is under Protection / Content Filtering / Banner Ad Blocker / White & Black Lists. To the white list tab, I added 3 masks for the URL addresses I could see being used, viz: *familysearch.org* *ldsfch.112.2O7* *byuhbll.112.2O7* These addresses showed up in the banner ad blocker section of the reports option in KIS. This current version of KIS seems to be a lot more obtrusively pedantic than the previous - don't be too dismissive, though, it may be that your own internet security / ad blocker may one day throw a similar hissy-fit! Adrian B

> she was a "pendiclar". I've been told this means she had > (rented? owned?) a > small piece of land. Is there any way at > all that I can look at some rolls to see if > there was a > woman with the first name of Margaret who was a pendiclar in > 1834 in Auchterless? In this context a pendicle is 'a small piece of land attached to a larger; a small farm, a croft'. The likelihood that Margaret owned the land, or even that the occupier of the land to which her pendicle was attached owned the land, is negligible. You need to (get someone to) look at the valuation rolls. However 1834 is quite early, and I am not certain that the names of all tenants and occupiers were listed at that time. In the earliest VRs the smaller properties tended to be listed en bloc rather than individually. The VR would tell you who owned the land, and you might find that the estate records have survived, and that if they have, and if you can find them, they might list names of tenants. But a pendicler could be a sub-tenant, and in that case isn't likely to be listed. There are copies of Aberdeenshire VRs in Aberdeen City Archives, the National Archives of Scotland and the National Library of Scotland. I am not aware of any being available online. Have you tried posting your query to the Aberdeenshire List? Department of silly questions: have you found Lewis in the 1841 census? Anne

> FYI - Unless I'm mistaken there has never been a requirement > to produce a > proof of marriage certificate when registering a birth. That is absolutely right. Anne

<<snipped>> legal requirements on certificates in listing a surname for a child where the parents do not have a marriage certificate ... <<snipped>> FYI - Unless I'm mistaken there has never been a requirement to produce a proof of marriage certificate when registering a birth. (Mark Herber says something similar in "Ancestral Trails".) Having said that, Scots birth certificates do state the date and place of marriage and I note that the current Dundee registrar's site says "If the parents are married to each other, it would be helpful to take their marriage certificate when the birth is to be registered". However, "helpful" sounds like they can't enforce it and if someone says something about their "marriage", I imagine it would have to be taken as truth. All comments gratefully accepted! <<snipped>> register of corrected entries and how do they get listed on Scotlandspeople, <<snipped>> Presence of an RoCE entry is noted on the original and it is now linked from the original on ScotlandsPeople - so if there isn't a link or a note on the scan, then, bureaucratic errors excepted, there isn't an RoCE. Adrian B

Just one point of clarification to Anne's otherwise excellent post, an illegitimate child would only be legitimated if its parents subsequently married AND at the time of it's birth both parents were free to marry. So a child born in e.g. adultery could never be legitimated except by Crown prerogative, usually exercised by the granting of a private Act of Parliament. -----Original Message----- From: angus-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:angus-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Anne Burgess Sent: 13 July 2009 09:10 To: angus@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ANGUS] Morrison of Kirriemuir 1851 census > Which leads to the thought of legal requirements on > certificates in > listing a surname for a child where the parents do not have a > marriage certificate as it does not seem to be all that > uncommon for > parents to be living together and having children with a > variety of > surnames. Are the birth certificates for such named children > likely > to be in the register of corrected entries and how do they get > listed > on Scotlandspeople, is there any indication of a variety of > surnames for 1 person. An illegitimate child can only be registered under its father's surname if the father attends with the mother at the time of registration, and signs the birth certificate along with her. If he does not attend, even though he may acknowledge the child, the birth certificate will show only the mother's name. The father's surname does sometimes appear in the RCE if there has been a paternity case in which he has been found to be the father. In Scotland, the subsequent marriage of the parents of an illegitimate child legitimises the child without further action bein necessary on their part. However occasionally a couple who subsequently marry will re-register the birth, in which case the new surname will be in the indexes. > I have come across several cases where a child was named > Daniel on > the birth cert but is only ever called Donald by the family. > I have > a great uncle that I discovered was Daniel on his birth cert > after > years of looking for him as Donald. Yes, Donald/Daniel is quite common. Also Janet/Jessie, Peter/Patrick, Jane/Jean and others. For more detail about given names see www.whatsinaname.net Anne ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ANGUS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> Which leads to the thought of legal requirements on > certificates in > listing a surname for a child where the parents do not have a > marriage certificate as it does not seem to be all that > uncommon for > parents to be living together and having children with a > variety of > surnames. Are the birth certificates for such named children > likely > to be in the register of corrected entries and how do they get > listed > on Scotlandspeople, is there any indication of a variety of > surnames for 1 person. An illegitimate child can only be registered under its father's surname if the father attends with the mother at the time of registration, and signs the birth certificate along with her. If he does not attend, even though he may acknowledge the child, the birth certificate will show only the mother's name. The father's surname does sometimes appear in the RCE if there has been a paternity case in which he has been found to be the father. In Scotland, the subsequent marriage of the parents of an illegitimate child legitimises the child without further action bein necessary on their part. However occasionally a couple who subsequently marry will re-register the birth, in which case the new surname will be in the indexes. > I have come across several cases where a child was named > Daniel on > the birth cert but is only ever called Donald by the family. > I have > a great uncle that I discovered was Daniel on his birth cert > after > years of looking for him as Donald. Yes, Donald/Daniel is quite common. Also Janet/Jessie, Peter/Patrick, Jane/Jean and others. For more detail about given names see www.whatsinaname.net Anne

Hello, Lists. I have an ancestress named "Margaret" (no last name) who was the mother of Lewis Cruikshank, and all I know is that Lewis was born in 1834 in Auchterless, Scotland and that his mother's first name was Margaret and she was a "pendiclar". I've been told this means she had (rented? owned?) a small piece of land. Is there any way at all that I can look at some rolls to see if there was a woman with the first name of Margaret who was a pendiclar in 1834 in Auchterless? Thank you for any thoughts. Anne Godfrey _________________________________________________________________ Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that’s right for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290

Thank you all for such prompt responses to my query. Isabel put together the information and suggestions from Richard, Anne and Barbara and saw the additional posts from Bruce and Irene before I logged onto my computer today and sent me a nice list along with my own suspicions, determined we are most likely on the right track with Thomas Morrison and Jane Milne/Mill. Still some confirmation needed on Alexander Morrison and Agnes Wallace and their mysterious children. My lines are always making me chase them but ever hopeful of turning up new living relatives. Which leads to the thought of legal requirements on certificates in listing a surname for a child where the parents do not have a marriage certificate as it does not seem to be all that uncommon for parents to be living together and having children with a variety of surnames. Are the birth certificates for such named children likely to be in the register of corrected entries and how do they get listed on Scotlandspeople, is there any indication of a variety of surnames for 1 person. I have come across several cases where a child was named Daniel on the birth cert but is only ever called Donald by the family. I have a great uncle that I discovered was Daniel on his birth cert after years of looking for him as Donald. Once again thank you for your assistance and look forward to any other thoughts on this family. Arlene Victoria BC

hello Arlene, Have you tried www.freecen.org.uk, there is an Alexander Morrison married to an Elizabeth, with a son in 1861 census aged 1. I tried 1871 freecen but cannot find either parent. This Alexander is a mason, born in banfshire, as is William. regards, Barbara, Melb On Sun, Jul 12th, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Arlene Halme <ahalme@shaw.ca> wrote: > Trying to crack a genealogical wall. > > William MORRISON born about 1857 in Kirriemuir married Agnes > McPHERSON born March 1855 in Kirriemuir they were married in > Kirriemuir Jan 3, 1881. Cannot locate a suitable birth record for > > William. > > His parents are elusive. He lists his parents as Alexander MORRISON & > > Agnes WALLACE on his marriage cert. and his age has been consistent > > on census records for birth to be c.1857. On the 1861 Kirriemuir > census Alexander and Agnes have 2 children, William age 4 and Janet > > age 8 mos. IGI has Janet Wallace or MORRISON b. Jul 18 1860 > Kirriemuir. William doesn't show up under WALLACE on the IGI. So > seems his parents may never have married so may not be a marriage > cert to check for parents. > > So my search is for ALEXANDER MORRISON born about 1815 may have died > > after the 1881 census and before the 1891 census as Agnes Wallace is > > by herself on 1891 and 1901 Kirriemuir. Scotlandspeople turned up 2 > > possible deaths but both were in Dundee > > I did locate on the 1851 Kirriemuir census an interesting James > MORRISON age 40 wife Ann age 42, dau Helen age 9, dau Ann age 3 and > > dau Susan age 5 months and a brother ALEXANDER age 38. > > On the 1881 census an Agnes McIntosh age 9 months is listed as > grandchild living with Alexander MORRISON and Agnes WALLACE ( she is > > listed as general servant, housekeeper, boarder on 3 census never as > > a wife). On the 1881 Kirriemuir Jessie MORRISON McIntosh age 19 wife > > is with William McIntosh age 21 > > Does anyone have any connection with any of the above? Suggestions > welcome. > > Connected families all of Kirriemuir, Malcolm, McPherson, Morrison, > > McDonald, Bush. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ANGUS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >