This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: entyoung_1 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5890.1.1.3.1.2.1.1.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Gordon, please look at the SP listing for the marriage of Robt. Young and Betsy Coull. That marriage is item 312/000022 - the look immediately above - the marriage of Isabella Keith Pert, dau. of George Pert and (unreadable on my copy) Pert, MS Murray. I find this interesting to the Pert connection. RegaRDS Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: GordonPertJohnson Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5890.1.1.3.1.2.1.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Quite interesting. This is part of my family tree (which runs to over 12,000 people so far). Cheers. Gordon. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: r_laurence Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5890.1.1.3.1.2.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Hi Not related but found this hope it helps 1. MARY COULL - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Christening: 29 JAN 1843 Craig By Montrose, Angus, Scotland Birth: 19 JAN 1843 2. ARCHIBALD COULL - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 27 SEP 1855 Craig By Montrose, Angus, Scotland 3. DAVID PATON COULL - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 11 APR 1841 Craig By Montrose, Angus, Scotland Birth: 27 MAR 1841 4. MARGARET MASSON COULL - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Christening: 21 MAY 1837 Craig By Montrose, Angus, Scotland Birth: 11 MAY 1837 5. JOSEPH COULL - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 28 OCT 1838 Craig By Montrose, Angus, Scotland Birth: 19 OCT 1838 6. BETSY MEARNS COULL - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 02 APR 1860 Craig By Montrose, Angus, Scotland 7. ROBERT COULL - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 29 DEC 1839 Craig By Montrose, Angus, Scotland Birth: 19 DEC 1839 ----------------------------------------------------------- 1861 Scotland Census about Betsey Coull Name: Betsey Coull Age: 1 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860 Relationship: Daughter Father's name: Archebald Coull Mother's name: Mary Coull Gender: Female Where born: Ferryden, Forfarshire Registration Number: 280 Registration district: Craig Civil parish: Craig County: Angus Address: 128 ED: 3 Household schedule number: 222 Line: 22 Roll: CSSCT1861_37 Household Members: Name Age Archebald Coull Fisherman 49 Mary Coull 46 Joseph Coull Journeyman Painter 22 Jessie Coull 16 Ann Coull 14 Helen Coull 12 John Coull 10 Archebald Coull 5 Betsey Coull 1 ------------------------------------------------------------ 1871 Scotland Census about Betsy Coull Name: Betsy Coull Age: 11 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860 Relationship: Daughter Mother's name: Mary Coull Gender: Female Where born: Craig, Forfarshire Registration Number: 280 Registration district: Craig Civil parish: Craig County: Angus Address: Burnetts Buildings Occupation: Scholar ED: 3 Household schedule number: 37 Line: 19 Roll: CSSCT1871_48 Household Members: Name Age Mary Coull 55 John Coull 19 Jessie Robbor Coull 24 Helen Coull 21 Betsy Coull 11 George Volentine 21 Days ------------------------------------------------------------ 1881 Scotland Census about Margaret Paton Or Coull Name: Margaret Paton Or Coull Age: 43 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1838 Relationship: Head Gender: Female Where born: Craig, Forfarshire Registration Number: 312 Registration district: Montrose Civil parish: Montrose County: Angus Address: 78 Castle Street Occupation: Fishworker ED: 5 Household schedule number: 39 Line: 4 Roll: cssct1881_96 Household Members: Name Age Margaret Paton Or Coull 43 John Coull 6 Joseph Coull 2 Bettsy Coull 18 ------------------------------------------------------------ 1881 Scotland Census about Bettsy Coull Name: Bettsy Coull Age: 18 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863 Relationship: Boarder Gender: Female Where born: Craig, Forfarshire Registration Number: 312 Registration district: Montrose Civil parish: Montrose County: Angus Address: 78 Castle Street Occupation: Millworker Flax ED: 5 Household schedule number: 39 Line: 7 Roll: cssct1881_96 Household Members: Name Age Margaret Paton Or Coull 43 John Coull 6 Joseph Coull 2 Bettsy Coull 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- 1891 Scotland Census about Betsy Coull Name: Betsy Coull Age: 16 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875 Relationship: Daur (Daughter) Father's name: James Coull Mother's name: Georgina Coull Gender: Female Where born: Craig, Forfarshire Registration Number: 280 Registration district: Craig Civil parish: Craig County: Angus Address: 3 Usan Road Occupation: Millworker (Flax Spinner) ED: 4 Household schedule number: 67 Line: 4 Roll: CSSCT1891_85 Household Members: Name Age James Coull 57 Georgina Coull 54 Mary Ann Coull 23 Betsy Coull 16 Archibald Coull 12 Eliza Coull 10 ------------------------------------------------------------ Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: Hogmanay Surnames: Wilkie, Nicol, McDonald Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/690.1.1.1.1.1.1.3/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Just throwing this in, although I think you're past this line already: Death reg. #64/1872/Kirriemuir (299) John Wilkie, farm servant, married to Elspeth McDonald Died - 2 May 1872, Southmuir, Kirriemuir Age - 54 Father - David Wilkie, deceased Mother - Margaret Wilkie MS Nicoll, deceased Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: rickinork Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/690.1.1.2.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: I've gone back through and the problem with linking John Wilkie, father of Thomas Wilkie, with the Wilkie/Nicoll line is that both David Wilkie's sons (John and James) are recorded as living beyond 1851. John Wilkie, father of Thomas, died some time between 1841 and 1851 and I've seen a reference to 1844 so this seems to rule him out as being a direct descendant of David Wilkie and Margaret Nicoll. There is a record of a marriage between a David Wilkie and an Elizabeth Ogilivy both of Cortachy in 1806. This does tie in with what my grandmother said that the Wilkies were related to the Ogilivies and Rattrays; I can't ever mind her talking of any Nicolls. It's circumstantial and I'm looking for any John Wilkies born between 1806 and 1816 to see if I can tie this down mare clearly. More in hope than expectation I suspect. It seems hard to avoid concluding that the two David Wilkies from the same glen and maybe parish were related but maybe cousins at the closest. I'll keep digging and in touch. Regards Richard Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: GordonPertJohnson Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5890.1.1.2.1.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Yes, please. Any Coull certificate I like to have the details of, either as a scan or a transcription, to add to the many hundreds I already hold (still not indexed!). Gordon. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: GordonPertJohnson Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5890.1.1.3.1.2.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Any person born 1855 or later would have a copy of their birth certificate to produce to the registrar as proof of age and parentage. If they had lost it, the registrar would still be able to refer back to the original register for the evidence. If you can find on the Scotlandspeople website a Betsy Coull with parents anything like Archibald and Mary, to fit an age of 17 in 1892 , I'd be happy to be proved wrong.. I can't see a young lady (or even 31-yr-old) being so positively wrong about her parentage at her marriage. The other avenue is to find her death certificate, to see what appears re her age and parents. You can probably find that without too much trouble. Best, Gordon. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: DonGillies61 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5890.1.1.2.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Having looked again at the certificate, I believe the illegible entry reads (witn)GSS, which is stating that Betsy's x-mark signature was witnessed by the minister George S Sutherland, as well as the two named witnesses. Let me know if you want the details from Betsy's death certificate for your records ? Don Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: DonGillies61 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5890.1.1.3.1.2/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Gordon, I'm not suggesting that they registered the child as their own. I'm suggesting that Betsy got her real parents names wrong. The age of Betsy is very clear on the certificate - 17. That is why I stated that I think she must not be the Betsy Coull born in 1860. If the age is accurate, then she would have been born around 1874/1875, and Mary would be too old to be her mother. There is of course the possibility that the age given on Betsy's marriage certificate was well out - but out by 14 or 15 years ? To complicate things, she is aged 34 on the 1901 census, and aged 37 when she died in 1902 ! Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: GordonPertJohnson Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5890.1.1.2.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: The reason for the witnesses names appearing twice, is that two witnesses were required to witness that the X was the person's signature; and again there were two witnesses to the marriage. They need not be the same two witnesses. I have seen other certs where the witnesses to the X were different from the witnesses to the marriage. I can't think what your illegible word might be, as usually it would be (spinster) or (widow), but you already have "spinster" noted. Gordon. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: GordonPertJohnson Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5890.1.1.3.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Sorry - hit the wrong key! Mary's parents were Alexander Noble and Margaret Whyte. Archibald Coull's parents were Joseph Coull and Mary Pert. He was baptised 28th April 1811, and died at sea on 28th Sept 1863. He was drowned when his open fishing boat was upset, and his body was not found. I have another couple of generations back on most lines, but I haven't pursued the Noble line at Fraserburgh. Gordon. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: GordonPertJohnson Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5890.1.1.3.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Mary Noble was born January 1817 in Fraserburgh, so in 1860 she would be aged 43, so not impossible to be still having children. Archibald and Mary married in 1836,and had their first child in 1837. Betsy was their 11th and last child. I don't think the registrar would have allowed them to register a child as theirs if it wasn't. The local registrar usually knew the local community, just like the minister did. Mary's parents were Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: DonGillies61 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5890.1.1.3/mb.ashx Message Board Post: It looks very much like Betsy is actually the granddaughter of Archibald and Mary, but may have been brought up by them. Mary would probably have been too old to have a child around 1875 - given that she had a child in 1838. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: DonGillies61 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5890.1.1.2/mb.ashx Message Board Post: 1892, on the 12th day of March at 13 Shore Wynd, Montrose. After publication according to the forms of the Church of Scotland. Signed : Robert Young (Dock labourer), bachelor. Age 24. Address : 13 Shore Wynd, Montrose Father : David Young (dock labourer) deceased Mother : Jane Young ms Paton deceased Signed : Her X mark (words in brackets and next word not legible). Betsy Coull, flax mill worker, spinster. Signed : William Mitchell witness Mary Valentine witness Age (of Betsy Coull) : 17 Address : 13 Shore Wynd, Montrose Father : Archibald Coull (fisherman) deceased Mother : Mary Coull ms Noble deceased The last 2 columns just give the ministers name, the witnesses again, and the date of registration. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: GordonPertJohnson Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5890.1.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: When you say "descendents", did you really mean "ancestors"?, for I certainly don't have any data on your Young family's children and grandchildren. Having checked my database,and also the 1881 census, I can't see any Betsy with a father named Archibald, except the Betsy I mentioned, who was born in 1860. Are you able to send me a scan of the marriage certificate? I might be able to read the words you can't make out. Regards, Gordon. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: gardner113 Surnames: WILKIE,RATTRAY Classification: lookup Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/690.1.1.2/mb.ashx Message Board Post: BOTH FAMILYS CAME FROM CLOVA THAT IS WHY I BELIEVE THEY ARE PART OF THE WILKIE/NICOL CLAN Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

Another rubber message, below. Lesley Robertson --Forwarded Message Attachment-- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [ANGUS] FW: Illegitimate births Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 17:19:46 +0200 > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Nivard Ovington > Sent: 13 June 2011 3:57 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [ANGUS] FW: Illegitimate births > > 2nd try > > > Thanks Lesley > > (there are still a lot of bounces going on, and very annoying > it is too) I'm glad to hear that it's not just me! > As you say it very much depended on the individual minister > as to how things were recorded > > Its clear in some cases the events were recorded (ah-la back > of a fag packet) then later written up in the registers, this > could lead to errors and duplications I am sure There was a directive in the 18th century to start keeping decent OPRs - I must look it up when I get a moment. > When you find what looks like two baptisms, could it be an > initial baptism (often due to a sickly > infant) and a later receiving into the Church? No, in the cases I'm thinking of, they're normal entries a week or two after the birth, and then the children are included again on a "whole family" page (where most of their siblings have not previously been entered). I had the impression that the parents had brought all their baptism certs in, and they'd all been entered into the register without anyone checking whether some had been properly registered. It's the same baptism date in both entries, but one's in the right year and the other is several years later. > Theoretically at least you can only be baptised once, I do > have cases of some being baptised twice but can't recall one > where it occurred in the same Parish The only time I know that's happened is where they changed denomination. Lesley Robertson

> In the cases I have come across of multiple baptisms on the > same day, the date of birth is often > recorded for each child and all are baptised on the same > day I have not come across many multiple baptisms where it is specifically stated that all the children were actually baptised on the same day. I have seen numerous lists of children with dates of birth and 'baptised soon thereafter' or words to that effect, but all recorded in the OPR on the same day. There were three relevant events in the procedure 1. The birth 2. The baptism 3. The recording of the baptism in the parish registers - the event most likely to be neglected. There is no guarantee that event No 3 took place on the same day as No 2, so unless the OPR says explicitly that all the children were baptised on the same day, it isn't safe to assume that this was the case. Anne

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: entyoung_1 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5890.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Thank you for the response, Gordon. SP is listing the marriage of Robert and Betsy on 12 March 1892 in Montrose. The parents of Robert are David Young and Jane Bowman (my gg grandparents) and the parents of Betsy as Archibald Coull and Mary ???? (unreadable) all parents are deceased. Robert is listed as 26 years (?) and Betsy as 14 years (??) For many years I have listed Robert as the youngest child of David and Jane Young not knowing too much, but having a birth date of 9 Nov 1868 in Montrose. So his age at marriage must be abt 23 . Several of the words in the SP record are unreadable such as Mary's last name and some wording before Betsy's signing. If you can add anything to this I would be most interested including decsendants. with best regards, Tim Young Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

Ho hum, try again 3rd time Ironically the first send attempt bounced Try again Thanks Wallace They do get through eventually but many list subscribers are suffering fatal rejections Its been going on some time and is intermittent, just when you think its stopped it starts up again I think my record is currently twelve posts to get one to hit a list Technology is great isn't it? until it doesn't work :-( Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > Nivard - your messages are getting through on this side of the Atlantic