This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: class54450 Surnames: Webster Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5898/mb.ashx Message Board Post: I am reposting hoping that someone will recognize the siblings of my ancestor, Marjory/May Webster: Gilles b. 1798 John b. 1800 James b. 1806 Alexander b. 1808 William b. 1809 Charles b. 1816 Walter b. 1820 I believe they were all the children of John and Isabel Lunan Webster. Thank you. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: davidrae66 Surnames: Rea Rae Fyfe, Green, Roger, Lawrie Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5897/mb.ashx Message Board Post: I am seeking descendants from Rea names as followed:- William Rea b. 1759 Kirremuir m: Barbara Anderson William Rea b. 1801 Dundee m: Catharine McNab William Rea b. 1827 Dundee m. Penelope Money Helen Rea b. 1830 Dundee m. James Gourlay Other surnames by marriage are Fyfe, Green, Roger, Lawrie. Please touch base if you may think there could be a connection. My direct email is [email protected] Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

The suggestion that one of your ancestors might have come from a long distance away is not just theoretical, it did happen, particularly with fisher families. They followed the herring shoals all the way from Shetland to Great Yarmouth, year by year, and while landing fish and spending some time in various ports (e.g. waiting for storms to clear), it was not uncommon for fishermen to find a girl in the port and later marry her. One of my own line had a wife surnamed Holland (or Hollandhead) around, who apparently was born in the London area in the 1700s. Other likely occupations are seamen, whose port activities are notorious. However, one has also to allow for itinerant merchants, who travelled the country vending their wares. In the early 1800s I encountered a china salesman from Italy who met and married a girl in Kincardineshire. They started a family, and a generation later some emigrated to the USA, where they adopted the surname Scott to avoid the anti-Italian bias in the Americas at that time. So, as Anne says, allow for anything......;-) Gordon.

Alan, Yes that is essentially the same chart that appears in Rosemary Bigwood's book, save that hers goes back to 1690 and the first schism. Elwyn

Sue, I think you will find that census takers were often very imprecise in their recording of some data and sometimes the interviewee misunderstood the question. But information could come from neighbors or children if the adults weren't available. Some Canadian censuses would put "Dutch" for German or put German when the original immigrants had been in Canada for many generations - its very messy sometimes. The fact that some say England may not mean much since many in Canada and the US viewed England and Scotland as one place (and I say that with a grimace because I know some in my family was very sensitive about their Scottish roots.) In any case, if any census says Scotland, I'd be inclined to spend my effort looking there. One deviation from that may be, however, when a Scottish family moved to England prior to coming to North America - I know one of my collateral lines came from Aberdeen but moved to Durham for several years prior to Quebec - they might well be shown from England depending on how the question we understood by the interviewee. On 7/12/2011 10:03 AM, Sue Richart wrote: > Ah! Appreciate the answer. I know that I have to find my proof in Canada > if it exists. > > Sue > > On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 6:51 AM, Anne Burgess: > >> : >>> It's fairly likely that your ancestors didn't move >>> far, but on the other hand your one could be the one who moved >>> from the south of England to the Mearns about 1700. Unlikely, >>> I >>> agree, but you can't exclude the possibility. >>> Where can I find more about this reference to moving to the >>> Mearns? >> Sorry, that was a purely hypothetical ancestor of Wallace's - >> trying to underline the point that jst because he was married in >> the Mearns in 1739 doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't move >> there from the south of England. >> >> Anne >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Elwyn, I found a diagram showing Scottish Church history by goggling 'scottish church history' then selecting Images along the top bar. Scroll down a 3 or 4 pages and a diagram can be seen. I have tried incorporating it into this email but I am sure that Rootsweb removes all attachments. I also found it here. Again just scroll down and one of the postings shows the same diagram. http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/threads/279538-Scottish-Churches-can-an yone-explain Alan Disclaimer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email message has been scanned for viruses by Mimecast. Mimecast delivers a complete managed email solution from a single web based platform. For more information please visit www.mimecast.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wallace, If both the husband and wife were listed one way in one census and another in a second census, I would wonder about it, but might just chalk it up to bad census taking or faulty memory as they got older. In the 1881 Census, George Nelson was listed as born in England of Scottish ancestry, but his wife Elizabeth was listed as born in Scotland of Scottish ancestry, as such, it has my attention. Unfortunately, their death records only list the spouse and nothing about the parents. I cannot find a marriage record for them in Quebec Province, nor the birth records of their two children, Euphremia and David Ramsey Nelson. There is a likely marriage record in Arbroath, which might or might not be my George and Elizabeth. Census records for both children state they were born in Quebec Province. The US naturalization record for David indicates he was born in Quebec Province. Even the Montreal marriage record of the other Scottish gggrandparents, James Elliot and Marjory Falconer, only lists the witnesses, no parents. Now a bit of a chuckle for listers, most of my ancestors are Irish. I was very excited to see a witness to the Elliot/Falconer marriage named Alexander Falconer, because I hadn't seen any Alexanders in my Roman Catholic Irish lines or on the parish records and civil records I've looked at. Then I checked the Canadian censuses and discovered that seemingly every Falconer family had one Alexander per generation. It was quite disappointing. I must say in typing this, I've thought of a couple of things else I can do to hunt for the Nelsons and Elliots in the Montreal area. Thanks for the tips. Sue Richart On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 12:10 PM, Wallace Fullerton <> wrote: > Sue, > > I think you will find that census takers were often very imprecise in > their recording of some data and sometimes the interviewee misunderstood > the question. But information could come from neighbors or children if > the adults weren't available. Some Canadian censuses would put "Dutch" > for German or put German when the original immigrants had been in Canada > for many generations - its very messy sometimes.

: >It's fairly likely that your ancestors didn't move > far, but on the other hand your one could be the one who moved > from the south of England to the Mearns about 1700. Unlikely, > I > agree, but you can't exclude the possibility. > Where can I find more about this reference to moving to the > Mearns? Sorry, that was a purely hypothetical ancestor of Wallace's - trying to underline the point that jst because he was married in the Mearns in 1739 doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't move there from the south of England. Anne

"I would be interested in which groups were "in business" about 1700 so I can consider their importance in my search." There's a useful table on page 287 of Tracing Scottish Ancestors by Rosemary Bigwood which sets out all the main schisms and re-unifications. According to that, 1690 saw the split which led to the creation of the Episcopal Church, the Reformed Presbyterian Church (RP) and the Church of Scotland itself. 1712 saw the passing of the Patronage Act which in turn led to the 1st big secession in 1733. So if you are looking for ancestors around 1700, then your main options seem to be Church of Scotland (ie Presbyterian), RP or Episcopal. Elwyn

Hi Wallace Looking at all the available records is never going to help if your people happen not to be in the records. You can certainly form a hypothesis, and you can look for information which would confirm that hypothesis, but just because there is an obvious candidate doesn't mean that s/he is the right one. So 1. Yes, up to a poimt 2. Depends which denomination of Protestant they were. If they were C of S, the extant records are easily accessible, but if they were Episcopalian, or belonged to one of the dissenting Protestant denominations, you will have more of a problem. Also, in the early 18th century the RC records are very patchy, and there is no guarantee that a couple married in 1737 in the C of S didn't start out as RC or some other kind of Protestant. 3. Anywhere. It's fairly likely that your ancestors didn't move far, but on the other hand your one could be the one who moved from the south of England to the Mearns about 1700. Unlikely, I agree, but you can't exclude the possibility. 4. Do your searching/sorting of available data, then think about where to look to fill in the gaps. The archives of the Erskines of Dun, for example, are in the National Archives of Scotland and may contain references to your George. I found, for example, a letter from my umpteenth great-grandfather applying for the tenancy of a farm on Seafield Estates in 1771, and the Dun records might contain similar material. I also found an obituary of one Edward Sang (1805-1890) which recounted his descent from a farmer surnamed Sang in Aberdeenshire around 1700, via the gardener at the House of Dun and the Provost of Kirkcaldy. I have yet to trawl through the Dun records to see if they mention him, but I live in hope of one day having time to do so. Happy hunting! Anne

Wallace and others, There is a "Succession of Churches 1733-1929" diagram on p. 189 in the following item: Steel, Donald J., National Index of Parish Registers, V.12. "Sources for Scottish genealogy and family history". London: Phillimore & Co., LTD. 1970 It may help a bit. Claire Claire V. Brisson-Banks, B.S., MLIS, A.G. Family History Library 35 N West Temple Salt Lake City, UT 84150-3440 801-240-1662 801-455-6271 (cell) -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 7:55 AM To: [email protected] Subject: ANGUS Digest, Vol 6, Issue 162 If you are responding to an item in this Digest, please remember to use the item, title, not the Digest title, so that other people can see what you are responding to! Thank you. Today's Topics: 1. Re: What are the limits..... (Gordon Johnson) 2. Re: what are the limits . . . (Anne Burgess) 3. Re: What are the limits..... (Wallace Fullerton) 4. Re: what are the limits . . . (Wallace Fullerton) 5. Re: What are the limits..... ([email protected]) 6. Re: what are the limits . . . (Sue Richart) 7. Re: what are the limits . . . (Anne Burgess) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 12:29:20 +0100 From: Gordon Johnson <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [ANGUS] What are the limits..... To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Wallace , There is a big difference between the word "protestant" and the churches of Scotland. Effectively, ALL churches that are not Roman Catholic are Protestant, so that apart from the Church of Scotland there are the Scottish Episcopal Church of Scotland, The Congregational Union, the Baptists, Unitarian, and all the breakaway denominations which formed (and re-formed) over the years. A Church of Scotland minister years back produced a diagram showing all the splits and joinings, and it was a complicated jigsaw. The main non-C. of S. offshoot denominations today are the Free Church of Scotland, The United Free Church of Scotland, the Free Presbyterian Church, the United Reformed Church, etc. Earlier we had for example the Relief Church and the United Secession Church who amalgamated to become the United Presbyterian Church, which later united with part of the Free Church to become the United Free Church of Scotland. You can get tied in knots just following all the Protestant demoninations! I have not mentioned the Quakers or the Salvation Army, as they were not mainstream nor have they many records useful for genealogy. Take into account that each of these denominations had their own records, and that most have not made it into any online index yet, on cannot rely on any online index to be comprehensive. Being the only solution in an online index does not mean that there are no other people who have not been indexed; in fact a survey done in Glasgow in the 1800s indicated that up to one third of all births never appeared in church records! One is dependent on the completeness of records in one's parish of interest, and that various from pretty good to almost nil. You can use a range of other records to supplement what is available on the IGI and scotlandspeople - the census returns, poor law records (from the 1840s, and just as variable as the church records, though sometimes fantastic in detail), newspapers (though very few are indexed), wills and testaments, sasines (property transfers), estate records, business records, militaryt records, court cases, to name but a few.... I would suggest a trawl through the online National Archives of Scotland <http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/> (shortly to become the National Records of Scotland) catalogue, as it is becoming a very useful tool. Enough of this lecture....!:-[ Gordon. Wallace Fullerton <[email protected]> asked: For some years I've been trying to pin down the origin of my 4g-grandparents, George Fullerton and Margaret Pirie. Their memorial inscription suggests George was born in or about 1707 and Margaret about 1714. They first show up when their marriage was recorded in 1739 in the OPRs for Dunnichen and Dun, and they lived as the tenants of the Mains of Dun until 1758, after which they relocated with their large family to Benholm in Kincardine. Having gotten nowhere with solid documentation, I am now attempting to encircle the available data and methodically knock off the less-likely possibilities. I've already looked through the IGI (using familysearch.org) for all "George Fullertons" born in the early 1700s - there are only a couple, and only one born in 1707. Now I am searching for all Fullerton marriages in Scotland likely to produce a child in the 1707 time frame - basically from 1690 through 1710. Again there are surprisingly few - maybe 100 or so (including the marriage of the parents of the sole George born in 1707 and another Fullerton marriage in Dunnichen.) I'd be interested in any thoughts this forum might have regarding several questions: 1. Does this methodology have merit? 2. One weakness is that there are sometimes gaps in the data from the OPRs (Dun Parish is missing many years, for example). What else might affect my results? I know that the family was Protestant but what other religious groups might I be missing by relying on the IGI (which is extracted mostly from the OPRs?) 3. How far, geographically, should I be setting my boundaries. Initially I am looking at Fullerton marriages only in the northern portion of Angus and in Kincardine because that's where the known family lived and remained for nearly a century (although spreading considerably further in the third generation.) Was it common for a couple to meet and marry when their families were separated by more than perhaps 15 or 20 miles? The farthest apart I've found so far was a marriage between a Menmuir male and a Laurencekirk female, approximately 20 miles apart. 4. I'd appreciate any ideas on how I might refine this rather coarse approach. Thanks! ********************************** ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 13:02:25 +0100 From: "Anne Burgess" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [ANGUS] what are the limits . . . To: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Hi Wallace Looking at all the available records is never going to help if your people happen not to be in the records. You can certainly form a hypothesis, and you can look for information which would confirm that hypothesis, but just because there is an obvious candidate doesn't mean that s/he is the right one. So 1. Yes, up to a poimt 2. Depends which denomination of Protestant they were. If they were C of S, the extant records are easily accessible, but if they were Episcopalian, or belonged to one of the dissenting Protestant denominations, you will have more of a problem. Also, in the early 18th century the RC records are very patchy, and there is no guarantee that a couple married in 1737 in the C of S didn't start out as RC or some other kind of Protestant. 3. Anywhere. It's fairly likely that your ancestors didn't move far, but on the other hand your one could be the one who moved from the south of England to the Mearns about 1700. Unlikely, I agree, but you can't exclude the possibility. 4. Do your searching/sorting of available data, then think about where to look to fill in the gaps. The archives of the Erskines of Dun, for example, are in the National Archives of Scotland and may contain references to your George. I found, for example, a letter from my umpteenth great-grandfather applying for the tenancy of a farm on Seafield Estates in 1771, and the Dun records might contain similar material. I also found an obituary of one Edward Sang (1805-1890) which recounted his descent from a farmer surnamed Sang in Aberdeenshire around 1700, via the gardener at the House of Dun and the Provost of Kirkcaldy. I have yet to trawl through the Dun records to see if they mention him, but I live in hope of one day having time to do so. Happy hunting! Anne ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 08:39:56 -0400 From: Wallace Fullerton <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [ANGUS] What are the limits..... To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Thanks, Gordon, for the "lecture." I was hoping that someone would respond with such a thorough discussion and I much appreciate the effort you put into it. Regarding my situation, let me add some information: I am looking for this family during a relatively short timeframe - specifically in a 15 year (approximately) period around the birth of George Fullerton about 1707. That should significantly reduce the complexity of the search although it also limits the available resources. I believe many of the branches of the Protestant movement mentioned by you were not around in 1700 (e.g., the Free Church, to which some of my family belonged in the 18th century.) I would be interested in which groups were "in business" about 1700 so I can consider their importance in my search. I know, for example, that the Fullertons of Kinnaber were Quakers and that my family lived only a few miles from Kinnaber but the fact that my family was recorded in the Dun parish records after 1739 suggests they remained mainstream (unfortunately the Dun records are fragmentary prior to 1740.) Additionally, the usefulness of many of the available resources is also reduced by my focus on the 1700 period - the post-1855 material is of no use at all (for this specific purpose.) Hence my focus on the IGI (and related material.) Thanks again! - Wally - On 7/12/2011 7:29 AM, Gordon Johnson wrote: > Wallace , > There is a big difference between the word "protestant" and the churches > of Scotland. Effectively, ALL churches that are not Roman Catholic are > Protestant, so that apart from the Church of Scotland there are the > Scottish Episcopal Church of Scotland, The Congregational Union, the > Baptists, Unitarian, and all the breakaway denominations which formed > (and re-formed) over the years. A Church of Scotland minister years back > produced a diagram showing all the splits and joinings, and it was a > complicated jigsaw. The main non-C. of S. offshoot denominations today > are the Free Church of Scotland, The United Free Church of Scotland, the > Free Presbyterian Church, the United Reformed Church, etc. > Earlier we had for example the Relief Church and the United Secession > Church who amalgamated to become the United Presbyterian Church, which > later united with part of the Free Church to become the United Free > Church of Scotland. You can get tied in knots just following all the > Protestant demoninations! > I have not mentioned the Quakers or the Salvation Army, as they were not > mainstream nor have they many records useful for genealogy. > Take into account that each of these denominations had their own > records, and that most have not made it into any online index yet, on > cannot rely on any online index to be comprehensive. Being the only > solution in an online index does not mean that there are no other people > who have not been indexed; in fact a survey done in Glasgow in the 1800s > indicated that up to one third of all births never appeared in church > records! > One is dependent on the completeness of records in one's parish of > interest, and that various from pretty good to almost nil. > You can use a range of other records to supplement what is available on > the IGI and scotlandspeople - the census returns, poor law records (from > the 1840s, and just as variable as the church records, though sometimes > fantastic in detail), newspapers (though very few are indexed), wills > and testaments, sasines (property transfers), estate records, business > records, militaryt records, court cases, to name but a few.... I would > suggest a trawl through the online National Archives of Scotland > <http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/> > (shortly to become the National Records of Scotland) catalogue, as it is > becoming a very useful tool. > Enough of this lecture....!:-[ > Gordon. > > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 08:45:55 -0400 From: Wallace Fullerton <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [ANGUS] what are the limits . . . To: Anne Burgess <[email protected]>, [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Thanks, Anne. Yes, you state the obvious and you are absolutely right. That's part of the reason for my questions - I'm hoping to move beyond the obvious. I am still hoping, someday, to have the opportunity to delve into the records of the Erskine estate at Dun. I'm also hoping you have the same opportunity and, when that happens, you remember my interest! I was interested to see in some of the circa 1800 newspapers that the availability of tenancies was sometimes advertised widely. I don't know if that was also true 50 years earlier but it opened my eyes a bit. Regards, - Wally - On 7/12/2011 8:02 AM, Anne Burgess wrote: > Hi Wallace > > Looking at all the available records is never going to help if > your people happen not to be in the records. You can certainly > form a hypothesis, and you can look for information which would > confirm that hypothesis, but just because there is an obvious > candidate doesn't mean that s/he is the right one. > > So > > 1. Yes, up to a poimt > > 2. Depends which denomination of Protestant they were. If they > were C of S, the extant records are easily accessible, but if > they were Episcopalian, or belonged to one of the dissenting > Protestant denominations, you will have more of a problem. > > Also, in the early 18th century the RC records are very patchy, > and there is no guarantee that a couple married in 1737 in the C > of S didn't start out as RC or some other kind of Protestant. > > 3. Anywhere. It's fairly likely that your ancestors didn't move > far, but on the other hand your one could be the one who moved > from the south of England to the Mearns about 1700. Unlikely, I > agree, but you can't exclude the possibility. > > 4. Do your searching/sorting of available data, then think about > where to look to fill in the gaps. The archives of the Erskines > of Dun, for example, are in the National Archives of Scotland > and may contain references to your George. I found, for example, > a letter from my umpteenth great-grandfather applying for the > tenancy of a farm on Seafield Estates in 1771, and the Dun > records might contain similar material. > > I also found an obituary of one Edward Sang (1805-1890) which > recounted his descent from a farmer surnamed Sang in > Aberdeenshire around 1700, via the gardener at the House of Dun > and the Provost of Kirkcaldy. I have yet to trawl through the > Dun records to see if they mention him, but I live in hope of > one day having time to do so. > > Happy hunting! > > Anne > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:00:23 +0100 (BST) From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [ANGUS] What are the limits..... To: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="UTF-8" "I would be interested in which groups were "in business" about 1700 so I can consider their importance in my search." There's a useful table on page 287 of Tracing Scottish Ancestors by Rosemary Bigwood which sets out all the main schisms and re-unifications. According to that, 1690 saw the split which led to the creation of the Episcopal Church, the Reformed Presbyterian Church (RP) and the Church of Scotland itself. 1712 saw the passing of the Patronage Act which in turn led to the 1st big secession in 1733. So if you are looking for ancestors around 1700, then your main options seem to be Church of Scotland (ie Presbyterian), RP or Episcopal. Elwyn ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 06:18:13 -0700 From: Sue Richart <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [ANGUS] what are the limits . . . To: Anne Burgess <[email protected]>, [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]om> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Anne Burgess wrote: 3. Anywhere. It's fairly likely that your ancestors didn't move far, but on the other hand your one could be the one who moved from the south of England to the Mearns about 1700. Unlikely, I agree, but you can't exclude the possibility. Anne, Where can I find more about this reference to moving to the Mearns? I still can't confirm that the George Nelson (b. about 1834) and Elizabeth Gibson (b. about 1829) in the Angus area are actually my gggrandparents, but on some of the earlier Canadian censuses, George was listed as born in England. Later ones say Scotland. The 1700 time frame is a bit early, but worth looking into. Sue Richart Washington State ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:51:00 +0100 From: "Anne Burgess" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [ANGUS] what are the limits . . . To: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original : >It's fairly likely that your ancestors didn't move > far, but on the other hand your one could be the one who moved > from the south of England to the Mearns about 1700. Unlikely, > I > agree, but you can't exclude the possibility. > Where can I find more about this reference to moving to the > Mearns? Sorry, that was a purely hypothetical ancestor of Wallace's - trying to underline the point that jst because he was married in the Mearns in 1739 doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't move there from the south of England. Anne ------------------------------ To contact the ANGUS list administrator, send an email to [email protected] To post a message to the ANGUS mailing list, send an email to [email protected] __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of ANGUS Digest, Vol 6, Issue 162 ************************************* NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message.

Wallace , There is a big difference between the word "protestant" and the churches of Scotland. Effectively, ALL churches that are not Roman Catholic are Protestant, so that apart from the Church of Scotland there are the Scottish Episcopal Church of Scotland, The Congregational Union, the Baptists, Unitarian, and all the breakaway denominations which formed (and re-formed) over the years. A Church of Scotland minister years back produced a diagram showing all the splits and joinings, and it was a complicated jigsaw. The main non-C. of S. offshoot denominations today are the Free Church of Scotland, The United Free Church of Scotland, the Free Presbyterian Church, the United Reformed Church, etc. Earlier we had for example the Relief Church and the United Secession Church who amalgamated to become the United Presbyterian Church, which later united with part of the Free Church to become the United Free Church of Scotland. You can get tied in knots just following all the Protestant demoninations! I have not mentioned the Quakers or the Salvation Army, as they were not mainstream nor have they many records useful for genealogy. Take into account that each of these denominations had their own records, and that most have not made it into any online index yet, on cannot rely on any online index to be comprehensive. Being the only solution in an online index does not mean that there are no other people who have not been indexed; in fact a survey done in Glasgow in the 1800s indicated that up to one third of all births never appeared in church records! One is dependent on the completeness of records in one's parish of interest, and that various from pretty good to almost nil. You can use a range of other records to supplement what is available on the IGI and scotlandspeople - the census returns, poor law records (from the 1840s, and just as variable as the church records, though sometimes fantastic in detail), newspapers (though very few are indexed), wills and testaments, sasines (property transfers), estate records, business records, militaryt records, court cases, to name but a few.... I would suggest a trawl through the online National Archives of Scotland <http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/> (shortly to become the National Records of Scotland) catalogue, as it is becoming a very useful tool. Enough of this lecture....!:-[ Gordon. Wallace Fullerton <[email protected]> asked: For some years I've been trying to pin down the origin of my 4g-grandparents, George Fullerton and Margaret Pirie. Their memorial inscription suggests George was born in or about 1707 and Margaret about 1714. They first show up when their marriage was recorded in 1739 in the OPRs for Dunnichen and Dun, and they lived as the tenants of the Mains of Dun until 1758, after which they relocated with their large family to Benholm in Kincardine. Having gotten nowhere with solid documentation, I am now attempting to encircle the available data and methodically knock off the less-likely possibilities. I've already looked through the IGI (using familysearch.org) for all "George Fullertons" born in the early 1700s - there are only a couple, and only one born in 1707. Now I am searching for all Fullerton marriages in Scotland likely to produce a child in the 1707 time frame - basically from 1690 through 1710. Again there are surprisingly few - maybe 100 or so (including the marriage of the parents of the sole George born in 1707 and another Fullerton marriage in Dunnichen.) I'd be interested in any thoughts this forum might have regarding several questions: 1. Does this methodology have merit? 2. One weakness is that there are sometimes gaps in the data from the OPRs (Dun Parish is missing many years, for example). What else might affect my results? I know that the family was Protestant but what other religious groups might I be missing by relying on the IGI (which is extracted mostly from the OPRs?) 3. How far, geographically, should I be setting my boundaries. Initially I am looking at Fullerton marriages only in the northern portion of Angus and in Kincardine because that's where the known family lived and remained for nearly a century (although spreading considerably further in the third generation.) Was it common for a couple to meet and marry when their families were separated by more than perhaps 15 or 20 miles? The farthest apart I've found so far was a marriage between a Menmuir male and a Laurencekirk female, approximately 20 miles apart. 4. I'd appreciate any ideas on how I might refine this rather coarse approach. Thanks! **********************************

Thanks, Anne. Yes, you state the obvious and you are absolutely right. That's part of the reason for my questions - I'm hoping to move beyond the obvious. I am still hoping, someday, to have the opportunity to delve into the records of the Erskine estate at Dun. I'm also hoping you have the same opportunity and, when that happens, you remember my interest! I was interested to see in some of the circa 1800 newspapers that the availability of tenancies was sometimes advertised widely. I don't know if that was also true 50 years earlier but it opened my eyes a bit. Regards, - Wally - On 7/12/2011 8:02 AM, Anne Burgess wrote: > Hi Wallace > > Looking at all the available records is never going to help if > your people happen not to be in the records. You can certainly > form a hypothesis, and you can look for information which would > confirm that hypothesis, but just because there is an obvious > candidate doesn't mean that s/he is the right one. > > So > > 1. Yes, up to a poimt > > 2. Depends which denomination of Protestant they were. If they > were C of S, the extant records are easily accessible, but if > they were Episcopalian, or belonged to one of the dissenting > Protestant denominations, you will have more of a problem. > > Also, in the early 18th century the RC records are very patchy, > and there is no guarantee that a couple married in 1737 in the C > of S didn't start out as RC or some other kind of Protestant. > > 3. Anywhere. It's fairly likely that your ancestors didn't move > far, but on the other hand your one could be the one who moved > from the south of England to the Mearns about 1700. Unlikely, I > agree, but you can't exclude the possibility. > > 4. Do your searching/sorting of available data, then think about > where to look to fill in the gaps. The archives of the Erskines > of Dun, for example, are in the National Archives of Scotland > and may contain references to your George. I found, for example, > a letter from my umpteenth great-grandfather applying for the > tenancy of a farm on Seafield Estates in 1771, and the Dun > records might contain similar material. > > I also found an obituary of one Edward Sang (1805-1890) which > recounted his descent from a farmer surnamed Sang in > Aberdeenshire around 1700, via the gardener at the House of Dun > and the Provost of Kirkcaldy. I have yet to trawl through the > Dun records to see if they mention him, but I live in hope of > one day having time to do so. > > Happy hunting! > > Anne > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thanks, Gordon, for the "lecture." I was hoping that someone would respond with such a thorough discussion and I much appreciate the effort you put into it. Regarding my situation, let me add some information: I am looking for this family during a relatively short timeframe - specifically in a 15 year (approximately) period around the birth of George Fullerton about 1707. That should significantly reduce the complexity of the search although it also limits the available resources. I believe many of the branches of the Protestant movement mentioned by you were not around in 1700 (e.g., the Free Church, to which some of my family belonged in the 18th century.) I would be interested in which groups were "in business" about 1700 so I can consider their importance in my search. I know, for example, that the Fullertons of Kinnaber were Quakers and that my family lived only a few miles from Kinnaber but the fact that my family was recorded in the Dun parish records after 1739 suggests they remained mainstream (unfortunately the Dun records are fragmentary prior to 1740.) Additionally, the usefulness of many of the available resources is also reduced by my focus on the 1700 period - the post-1855 material is of no use at all (for this specific purpose.) Hence my focus on the IGI (and related material.) Thanks again! - Wally - On 7/12/2011 7:29 AM, Gordon Johnson wrote: > Wallace , > There is a big difference between the word "protestant" and the churches > of Scotland. Effectively, ALL churches that are not Roman Catholic are > Protestant, so that apart from the Church of Scotland there are the > Scottish Episcopal Church of Scotland, The Congregational Union, the > Baptists, Unitarian, and all the breakaway denominations which formed > (and re-formed) over the years. A Church of Scotland minister years back > produced a diagram showing all the splits and joinings, and it was a > complicated jigsaw. The main non-C. of S. offshoot denominations today > are the Free Church of Scotland, The United Free Church of Scotland, the > Free Presbyterian Church, the United Reformed Church, etc. > Earlier we had for example the Relief Church and the United Secession > Church who amalgamated to become the United Presbyterian Church, which > later united with part of the Free Church to become the United Free > Church of Scotland. You can get tied in knots just following all the > Protestant demoninations! > I have not mentioned the Quakers or the Salvation Army, as they were not > mainstream nor have they many records useful for genealogy. > Take into account that each of these denominations had their own > records, and that most have not made it into any online index yet, on > cannot rely on any online index to be comprehensive. Being the only > solution in an online index does not mean that there are no other people > who have not been indexed; in fact a survey done in Glasgow in the 1800s > indicated that up to one third of all births never appeared in church > records! > One is dependent on the completeness of records in one's parish of > interest, and that various from pretty good to almost nil. > You can use a range of other records to supplement what is available on > the IGI and scotlandspeople - the census returns, poor law records (from > the 1840s, and just as variable as the church records, though sometimes > fantastic in detail), newspapers (though very few are indexed), wills > and testaments, sasines (property transfers), estate records, business > records, militaryt records, court cases, to name but a few.... I would > suggest a trawl through the online National Archives of Scotland > <http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/> > (shortly to become the National Records of Scotland) catalogue, as it is > becoming a very useful tool. > Enough of this lecture....!:-[ > Gordon. > >

Ah! Appreciate the answer. I know that I have to find my proof in Canada if it exists. Sue On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 6:51 AM, Anne Burgess: > : > >It's fairly likely that your ancestors didn't move > > far, but on the other hand your one could be the one who moved > > from the south of England to the Mearns about 1700. Unlikely, > > I > > agree, but you can't exclude the possibility. > > > Where can I find more about this reference to moving to the > > Mearns? > > Sorry, that was a purely hypothetical ancestor of Wallace's - > trying to underline the point that jst because he was married in > the Mearns in 1739 doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't move > there from the south of England. > > Anne > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

Anne Burgess wrote: 3. Anywhere. It's fairly likely that your ancestors didn't move far, but on the other hand your one could be the one who moved from the south of England to the Mearns about 1700. Unlikely, I agree, but you can't exclude the possibility. Anne, Where can I find more about this reference to moving to the Mearns? I still can't confirm that the George Nelson (b. about 1834) and Elizabeth Gibson (b. about 1829) in the Angus area are actually my gggrandparents, but on some of the earlier Canadian censuses, George was listed as born in England. Later ones say Scotland. The 1700 time frame is a bit early, but worth looking into. Sue Richart Washington State

For some years I've been trying to pin down the origin of my 4g-grandparents, George Fullerton and Margaret Pirie. Their memorial inscription suggests George was born in or about 1707 and Margaret about 1714. They first show up when their marriage was recorded in 1739 in the OPRs for Dunnichen and Dun, and they lived as the tenants of the Mains of Dun until 1758, after which they relocated with their large family to Benholm in Kincardine. Having gotten nowhere with solid documentation, I am now attempting to encircle the available data and methodically knock off the less-likely possibilities. I've already looked through the IGI (using familysearch.org) for all "George Fullertons" born in the early 1700s - there are only a couple, and only one born in 1707. Now I am searching for all Fullerton marriages in Scotland likely to produce a child in the 1707 time frame - basically from 1690 through 1710. Again there are surprisingly few - maybe 100 or so (including the marriage of the parents of the sole George born in 1707 and another Fullerton marriage in Dunnichen.) I'd be interested in any thoughts this forum might have regarding several questions: 1. Does this methodology have merit? 2. One weakness is that there are sometimes gaps in the data from the OPRs (Dun Parish is missing many years, for example). What else might affect my results? I know that the family was Protestant but what other religious groups might I be missing by relying on the IGI (which is extracted mostly from the OPRs?) 3. How far, geographically, should I be setting my boundaries. Initially I am looking at Fullerton marriages only in the northern portion of Angus and in Kincardine because that's where the known family lived and remained for nearly a century (although spreading considerably further in the third generation.) Was it common for a couple to meet and marry when their families were separated by more than perhaps 15 or 20 miles? The farthest apart I've found so far was a marriage between a Menmuir male and a Laurencekirk female, approximately 20 miles apart. 4. I'd appreciate any ideas on how I might refine this rather course approach. Thanks!

Dundee (and Angus / Forfarshire and others) Directories can be downloaded for free here http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=dundee First Directory is about halfway down the first page. Pat "Here's tae us! Wha's like us? Damn few! - an' they're a' deid!" Old Scots Toast Check out my website www.genesontheweb.co.uk PC>-----Original Message----- PC>From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On PC>Behalf Of [email protected] PC>Sent: 09 July 2011 01:16 PC>To: [email protected] PC>Subject: [ANGUS] (no subject) PC> PC>I found a new _http://www.familyrelatives.com/index.php_ PC>(http://www.familyrelatives.com/index.php) commercial; pay-to-play PC>website saying trade PC>records... they were not trade indentures but business directories, PC>especially PC>from Dundee are on it. It lists Forfarshire,not Angus.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: Forfarian Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5895.1.1.1.2/mb.ashx Message Board Post: My apologies. It never entered my head that someone might interpret 'deacon' as an ecclesiastical term. In all the many, many references I have found to deacons in Forfar, all of them have been deacons of guilds (mostly shoemakers, because that's what my Forfar ancestors mostly were). My understanding is that (male) deacons are a relative innovation in churches in Scotland, and I am pretty sure there weren't any in the 18th century. There's an article about deacons on Wikipedia which seems to bear this out. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: alexander993 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5895.1.1.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Thanks everyone, and especially you Don for that extra bit of info as well. I'm going with Deacon. Christine. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.