This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: Forfarian Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/2366.2.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: I don't understand your message at all. If Jessie McWalter only became Jessie Ormond when she got married, how could she have a sister and brother with the surname Ormond? And if your grandmother was Jessie Ormond née McWalter, was George her second husband? And was Dunbar his surname or where he came from? Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: kenzpostbox Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/2366.2.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: my grandmother was jessie ormond (nee Mcwalter),who was emma`s sister. apparently they also had a brother called david ormond.my grandmother married george stewart beet dunbar and had 5 children my mother jessie, my auntie wendy,thomas who died quite young,conrad who was hit by a car and killed in his teens while working in a racing stable and a daughter agnes who i believe died within days of birth. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

Dear all I am seeking help with the origins of my g.g.grandmother Jean STEEL born approx 1802 Dundee She appears as follows She married Alexander William SMITH b1810 Lesmahagow Lanarkshire On the Baptisms of William (1837) and David (1839) Smith their sons, Jean Cooks father is noted as David Cook Abbotsford Place Gorbals Lanarkshire In 1841 enumerated as Jean SMITH 35 born out of County 273 Sauchihall street Glasgow Lanarkshire In 1851 enumerated as Jean SMITH 49 Dundee Forfarshire Crofthead House Langside Renfrewshire In 1861 enumerated as Jean SMITH 59 Forfarshire Dundee Crofthead House Langside Renfrewshire In 1871 enumerated as Jean SMITH 69 merchants wife Forfarshire Dundee Her death registration 1875 deaths in the Parish of Cathcart in the County of Renfrew Jean SMITH married to Alexander SMITH Commission Merchant 1875 May Twenty Forth 6 hour P.M. Crofthead House Langside Parish of Cathcart Bronchitis about a week as Cert by Peter STEWART M.D. (informant) Wm SMITH son present 5 Montgomerie Terrace (registered) 1875 May 29th at Cathcart Andrew CAMDUFF Registrar She is buried at the Glasgow Necropolis There was only one Baptism on the IGI or scotlandspeople for any children of a David Cook and Jane Steel, the following in Aberdeen 1800 December Third David COOK Sergeant in the Fifth Regiment of the North British Militia and Jean STEEL his wife had a son born named David; Baptised by the Rev'd. Dr. George GORDON in presence of Serg't. KIRK and David LAWSON of the foresaid Regiment lying in the Barracks here No other obvious connected baptisms in either Aberdeen or Dundee No baptism found for Jean COOK born 1802/3 No obvious David COOK with or without wife Jane found in the census, and no David COOK born about 1800 Can anyone shed any light on Jean COOK b1802ish Dundee ? Or know of a David and Jane COOK of the right vintage ? Any help or advice appreciated Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK)

I see several businesses today that are in Westgate, Dundee that are near Ninewells Hospital. If someone were "of Westgate" or had a shop "in Westgate" in 1822, 1823, what area would this have been (ie what were the streets/cross streets)? Where might I find out more about the history of this section of the city? My Innes ancestors -- William and Helen Hay were in this area in 1822. William and son William were nailers/nail makers. Father William was also a change keeper (kept an inn or public house). Mother Helen Hay had a shop there (1823). (Ref: Court papers regarding trials of William Innes and son William Innes, 1822 and 1823, Forfar). Thank you. Marilyn Arnold WDC

> I've looked in that past at deceased online and haven't > found much.  Nothing > related to my family and they don't seem to have the Howff > records on there. No, they don't. Deceased Online has the records held by Angus Council. The area covered by Angus Council is not the same as the area of the County of Angus. Specifically, the area of the City of Dundee, which is in the historic County of Angus, is not administered by Angus Council, therefore its records are not held by Angus Council and are not on Deceased Online. The City of Dundee includes not only the parish of Dundee, but also part or all of the parishes of Liff and Benvie, Mains and Strathmartine, Monifieth and Invergowrie, so if your people aren't on Deceased Online and you think they were buried in one of these parishes, the records may be held by Dundee City Council. This is one of the few circumstances in which it is necessary to know which areas/towns/parishes are administered by the current local authorities rather than the historic county/town/burgh/city councils which were abolished in the local government reorganisation in 1975, and again in 1995. Anne

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: Forfarian Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5907.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Diane, can you be a bit more specific? Bell is a very common surname and there may well have been more than one family of the name emigrating to Canada in the time period you mentioned. If you can supply full names, ages/dates of birth, places of birth, what censuses you have found hem in before they emigrated, and any other of the relevant information you obviously must have, someone might be able to help. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

I will try to explain my brickwall problem in broad strokes, and be prepared to elaborate if there appears to be a solution available. My maternal line is Spalding. I have traced a branch from a marriage of John Alexander Spalding b 1828 in Monikie, to Mary Caird b 1835 in Dundee. The marriage took place in 1857. At this point I should add that I have failed to find a connection of Mary Caird with James Key Caird, the Dundee benefactor born Dundee 1837. The significance of this will emerge as I trace the following Spalding line which has ended up as a brickwall. The family line exists and in part resident today in the Broughty Ferry/Monifieth area. I have learned, from a source in Canada that James Caird Spalding b 1920 d 2003 has a family of two sons, and two daughters. At least one of his sons with a son resident in Dundee. I have made contact with him and received an enthusiastic response, requesting more details of my requirements. For reasons which can be imagined, there was a sudden silence. Letters to one son of James Caird Spalding went unanswered. I have no information on the whereabouts of the two daughters. Ten Spalding families in the Broughty/Monifieth area have been contacted with no success, although replies offering assistance were received. My distant relative in Canada has tried, by telephone to persuade the widow of James Caird Spalding to co-operate in my search, but information has been refused. I am seeking a way to break this brickwall without antagonising the existing Spalding members who appear to be anti-genealogy. The Caird connection (if any) has been intriguing, in that in successive Spalding generations, the name Caird has emerged as middle name five times. Even if there is no connection, the family appear to think there is. I don't think this story is as clear as I would have hoped, but any suggestions on how to find a way round this barrier of silence would be appreciated. Alistair Macdonald

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: class54450 Surnames: Cuthbert, Thomson et al Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/941.1441.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Sorry it took so long to respond. Both women were the children of James and Katherine Yeoman Cuthbert who married the 02 June 1787 in Rescobie. I am directly descended from their first child who it seems was born prior to their marriage. His name was David Cuthbert and married Janet Mitchell in 1811. I'm sorry but have very little on the Thomson's. Caroline Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: Debbs1961 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5873.1.1.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: hi thanks for that william porter is m great great grand Uncle his brother John Low is my great great grandfather i have a fair bit about the Porters now and only need to find his wife Jane Porter nee Fraser ancestry today we know when married where died and all the children but not where she was born or dob or parents etc any photos you have would be great toooo my direct email is [email protected] thanks debbie Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: dennistounlady Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5873.1.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Good Morning, Emma Nevay Masterton was my husband's 2nd. Great Grand Aunt. Her parents lived for a time with Emma and William in the Stag on Castle Street, Forfar. Not sure if you have ever visited Forfar but the Stag is still there. Most of the research that I have is on Emma's family as her brother William Nevay Masterton is my husband's 2nd Great Grandfather. I have a photograph of Emma's parents headstone in Forfar Cemetery. I do know that William was a seaman before he took over in the brewing industry after his father's death. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: Debbs1961 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5873.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: thank You for this information are you related to this family since i posted this message i have found other information and descendants of charles and Jane do you have any other information about them thanks Debbie Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: DianeMorrison57 Surnames: BELLS OF LOCHEE Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5907/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Anyone know anything about the Bells who emigrated to Canada around late 1890's early 1900's from Dundee, Scotland? Thanks Diane Morrison Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: dennistounlady Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5873.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: William Porter married Emma Nevay Masterton on 16 September 1873 in London. They had 5 children all born in Forfar. Evelyn 1877 - 1950 Alice Fraser Smith 1880 - Frank Brisbane 1882 - Charles 1886 - Christopher Watson 1890 - 1891 Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

Try this for the Howff http://www.fdca.org.uk/FDCATheHowff1.html There appears to be one Arnold - Margaret burial 25 March 1785, but is there a different spelling method? Iain Scott Member 3667 Scott, Baxter, Bathgate, Grant

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: d_gibbons_wood Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/600.3/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Hi I live in Bogendollo House! If you are interested i could send you some pictures. Send me you details and I could send some photos. The house is a listed building and is unchanged from well before 1882. Let me know DGW Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

Dear Ian: Thanks for the link. This has the original file plus pictures. What great, lovely old stones. It still doesn't appear to have the plots, ie map-type listing of who is buried where .... whatever happened to that site?! And, thanks for looking up an Arnold. Unfortunately, my Arnolds weren't anywhere near Scotland - they were from "over the Bridge", Ilchester, England, came to Providence, RI in 1635 and I know the lineage forward. Only have one gr-grandmother, Juliana Innes Powrie, who was from Dundee. It's her family I'm tracking -- grandparents John Powrie/Isobella Bruce; James Innes/Helen Reid; James Innes son of William Innes and Helen Hay. Can't find the Powrie burials anywhere, but they seem to have been associated with the Errol Church, so may be there and unmarked. The Innes' lived in Dundee and are mostly buried at the Howff, but I'm trying to find out what happened to Wm Innes, husband of Helen Hay, father of James Innes. He b. ~ 1784, arrested, tried and imprisoned in Woolwich, England (gaol ships), pardoned 1825. Trying to see if he came back. The Wm Innes I've found in the Howff appears to have been b. Ireland. Family stories take our Innes line back to Innes House outside Elgin, and the Innes of Edingight and Innermarkie. And as to Arnold spellings, there are a couple of dozen frm Arnholt, Ernolt, Arnoldi, .... # of variants from Anglo-Saxon roots. Thanks again, Ian! Marilyn Arnold ----- Original Message ----- From: "ibmpscott.co.uk" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 11:29 AM Subject: Re: [ANGUS] HOWFF > Try this for the Howff > > http://www.fdca.org.uk/FDCATheHowff1.html > > There appears to be one Arnold - Margaret burial 25 March 1785, but is > there > a different spelling method? > > Iain Scott > Member 3667 > Scott, Baxter, Bathgate, Grant > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks for the support and answers, Gavin! They weren't colorful until recently! But they've certainly become colorful since I've been looking for them in the court records! (They were mystery people until I happened to find Wm Innes (the son) in the court records and by looking HIM up, happened to find out his father was also ... an accomplice of some sort!) Since finding that generation back in my Innes line (about 10 years ago) they've just been names. This just wasn't exactly the character I was expecting! I believe the utterance was of forged notes. I am ordering the files later this month and will know more, but an inventory of one lists a guinea note, so I'd think these may be paper documents?? (Then there were other items too fragile to copy). No coins were mentioned. But, your bringing up the question of coins vs paper is more than valid. I posted a query about 2 months ago about nailer/nail mailer and change keeper as occupations and responses came back about nailers related to the weaving business in setting pins/nails upon which the fabric was woven. So, now this does raise that question again. Hmmm. Well, I guess everythings back on the table about what they were doing. (What WERE they doing!) But the father was also a change keeper, which several on the list indicate he kept an inn or public house. I see in the 1818 City Directory that there were two main hotels, but neither were in West Gate, which is where they were "of". Son James was a sawmaker/saw repairman so had access to tools and would have learned the trade somewhere. (A trade passed down to several sons and then grandsons on two continents!) (I have a wooden chest of pine, with wooden pegs, that I suspect may have been made by him. It came to America bef 1890 with granddaughter Juliana Innes Powrie and had everything she owned.) You and Gordon have both corrected me/informed me about maiden names. I was wondering about that. I had earlier found wife Helen Hay in the 1841 census living in the household of (or adjacent to), son James Innes, but under the surname Hay. As usual, questions answered lead to more questions unanswered. But, I'm happy to know more than just his name, marriage and names of the two sons! Can't wait to see the court records (father and son) ... but they say it takes a month and I have to pay abt $240 US (160 B.P.) for copies. Thanks again, Gavin. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gavin Bell" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 5:51 AM Subject: Re: [ANGUS] Dundee -- Citizen arrested, tried, prisoner ... England; would he have returned??? > Marilyn Arnold wrote: > >>Perhaps this isn't the right list for this question. ... >> > > It definitely is! Thank you for such a colourful account. I can't > answer all your questions, but here are one or two thoughts: > >>... >>... Married and had children. They >>(and Helen Hay Innes, who took back her maiden name) were buried in the >>Howff. >> > > I doubt if Helen did "take back her maiden name" - she probably never > lost it. The convention of the wife adopting the husband's surname was > at that date not universal in Scotland. If Jean Smith married John > Brown, she became "Jean Smith or Brown", a formulation that still occurs > today in formal contexts such as Wills. In the Census, she was just as > likely to be listed as "Jean Smith" as "Jean Brown" and if she was > widowed, she might become either "Widow Smith" or "Widow Brown" - one > ancestor of mine seems to have answered to both. > >>Son William, like his father, was also a nailer/nail maker, and was >>also involved in "utterance"/forgery. >> > > I'm intrigued by the coincidence of two nail makers becoming forgers. > Do you know what it was they "uttered"? I'm guessing it was counterfeit > coins, as paper money was at that date something of a rarity, and > consequently difficult to pass off. A nail maker would have a forge and > anvil, so perhaps there was a built-in professional temptation to start > stamping out half-crowns made of lead! > >>... >> >>Question -- Would he have returned to Dundee or stayed in London? >> > > I really don't believe that we can, with any confidence, say what our > ancestors might or might not do in particular circumstances. It is > unlikely that we can ever discover all the relevant factors which might > have had an effect on their decisions, and we certainly can't get inside > their minds. > >>How >>difficult was transportation in that time period? If he came back to his >>wife and son James and young family, I'm assuming this would have been by >>ship? >> > > That would have been cheaper than the overland journey. > >>How long would it have taken? >> > > The first "steam packets" were by then employed on the more lucrative > routes, such as carrying mail across the English Channel and Irish Sea, > but I suspect that the Dundee to London route was still covered by > sailing ships, which necessarily were at the mercy of the weather, and > did not run to fixed timetables. I would expect the journey to last > some days, perhaps (with contrary winds) as much as a week. > >>Were prisoners given any money when >>released? If he had no money upon release what would he have done? As a >>prisoner, would he have been allowed to send and receive mail? >> > > I don't know whether prisoners could receive mail. But this was before > the introduction of the "Penny Post", so mail charges were normally paid > by the recipient, not the sender. Once he was released, of course, he > could have sent a message himself, requesting replies to an inn - or > perhaps to the shipping office.. > >>Could family >>have sent him money for the return? >> > > I think it likely that the regular ships between London and the Scottish > ports might well have acted as carriers of letters or parcels, just as > carters did on land (and "country buses" did in the days of my youth). > Or the family could have paid for his passage in Dundee. > >>How would he have been received in the >>community as a former convict and prisoner? Would he have been shunned >>and >>unable to find work? >> >> > > "Shunning" strikes me as typical of small, inward-looking societies. He > would probably have been well advised not to seek out the company of > those whom he might have practised his "utterance" on, but Dundee was by > then embarked on its great 19th-century expansion, so would have offered > (a) a measure of anonymity, and (b) a growing range of employments in > the jute mills. > > > > Gavin Bell > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I've looked in that past at deceased online and haven't found much. Nothing related to my family and they don't seem to have the Howff records on there. The site I'm looking for was specificially about the Howff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doreen Cuthbert" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 1:40 AM Subject: Re: [ANGUS] HOWFF > Marilyn > Have you looked at deceasedonline. They now have most of the Angus > records, apart from Dundee > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 6 Sep 2011, at 01:12, "Marilyn Arnold" <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> RE: Howff burials at: http://www.fdca.org.uk/. If burial is not stated >> as >> Old Howff or New Howff is the listing the same as the above or is it not >> known? I know that the New Howff was paved over for a parking lot. >> (ack!) >> Dare I ask what happened to the graves, the bodies and the stones? In >> the >> 1800s did most people have caskets or not? >> >> My Innes ancestors seem to have been buried in the Howff. Some in the >> old, >> some in the new and some were not indicated in that box in the excel >> file. >> My POWRIE burials remain unknown at this time, with chance of finding >> them, >> small. >> >> About 5 years ago there used to be a site online which was GREAT and had >> not >> only burials, but sort of a map from the cemetery which indicated burial >> plots and who was buried where -- a wonderful tool to help determine who >> is >> related to whom. I have not been able to find this. Can anyone tell me >> where this might have been moved? It also had pictures of some of the >> graves. It was a private researcher, a man, I believe, who put this up. >> >> If this site doesn't exist, does someone know where records are that have >> the cemetery plots listing families that would have this info? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Marilyn >> WDC >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

Marilyn Arnold wrote: >Perhaps this isn't the right list for this question. ... > It definitely is! Thank you for such a colourful account. I can't answer all your questions, but here are one or two thoughts: >... >... Married and had children. They >(and Helen Hay Innes, who took back her maiden name) were buried in the >Howff. > I doubt if Helen did "take back her maiden name" - she probably never lost it. The convention of the wife adopting the husband's surname was at that date not universal in Scotland. If Jean Smith married John Brown, she became "Jean Smith or Brown", a formulation that still occurs today in formal contexts such as Wills. In the Census, she was just as likely to be listed as "Jean Smith" as "Jean Brown" and if she was widowed, she might become either "Widow Smith" or "Widow Brown" - one ancestor of mine seems to have answered to both. >Son William, like his father, was also a nailer/nail maker, and was >also involved in "utterance"/forgery. > I'm intrigued by the coincidence of two nail makers becoming forgers. Do you know what it was they "uttered"? I'm guessing it was counterfeit coins, as paper money was at that date something of a rarity, and consequently difficult to pass off. A nail maker would have a forge and anvil, so perhaps there was a built-in professional temptation to start stamping out half-crowns made of lead! >... > >Question -- Would he have returned to Dundee or stayed in London? > I really don't believe that we can, with any confidence, say what our ancestors might or might not do in particular circumstances. It is unlikely that we can ever discover all the relevant factors which might have had an effect on their decisions, and we certainly can't get inside their minds. >How >difficult was transportation in that time period? If he came back to his >wife and son James and young family, I'm assuming this would have been by >ship? > That would have been cheaper than the overland journey. >How long would it have taken? > The first "steam packets" were by then employed on the more lucrative routes, such as carrying mail across the English Channel and Irish Sea, but I suspect that the Dundee to London route was still covered by sailing ships, which necessarily were at the mercy of the weather, and did not run to fixed timetables. I would expect the journey to last some days, perhaps (with contrary winds) as much as a week. >Were prisoners given any money when >released? If he had no money upon release what would he have done? As a >prisoner, would he have been allowed to send and receive mail? > I don't know whether prisoners could receive mail. But this was before the introduction of the "Penny Post", so mail charges were normally paid by the recipient, not the sender. Once he was released, of course, he could have sent a message himself, requesting replies to an inn - or perhaps to the shipping office.. >Could family >have sent him money for the return? > I think it likely that the regular ships between London and the Scottish ports might well have acted as carriers of letters or parcels, just as carters did on land (and "country buses" did in the days of my youth). Or the family could have paid for his passage in Dundee. >How would he have been received in the >community as a former convict and prisoner? Would he have been shunned and >unable to find work? > > "Shunning" strikes me as typical of small, inward-looking societies. He would probably have been well advised not to seek out the company of those whom he might have practised his "utterance" on, but Dundee was by then embarked on its great 19th-century expansion, so would have offered (a) a measure of anonymity, and (b) a growing range of employments in the jute mills. Gavin Bell

If William returned to Dundee, he would probably have travelled by sea. Here’s a link to one of the companies that operated that route: www.benjidog.co.uk/allen/index_files/Page3195.htm It was comparatively cheap, and usually took several days. The overland journey was much more expensive. Even after the railways were built, the ferry journey remained popular as it was much cheaper. I very much doubt he was given any money when he was released. He would have had to fend for himself. If his family sent money for him, I suspect they would have done so via a trusted intermediary, rather than direct to the prison, in case it got "lost".