This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: mes0624 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5947.2/mb.ashx Message Board Post: My "Uncle Polar" served on the Life Boats during that time I even have a pin of his, but unfortunatly I do not have any further info. the thread in the previous post as of this time does not work Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

On 30/10/2012 19:23, BRUINSWOOD@aol.com wrote: > _https://www.missingpeople.org.uk/component/option,com_docman/Itemid,131/gid > ,71/task,doc_download/_ > (https://www.missingpeople.org.uk/component/option,com_docman/Itemid,131/gid,71/task,doc_download/) > just read...... thanks I had forgotten those. where are they to be found. > when is there a court inquest required? In Scotland, never. Holding an Inquest (ie a preliminary hearing in court, to determine whether there are any grounds for criminal prosecution) is the practice in England and in some other jurisdictions, but is not the only way of dealing with unexpected deaths. In Scotland, all sudden, violent or unexplained deaths are reported to the Procurator Fiscal (or public prosecutor) who will take reports from police (and, if required, from pathologists or other scientific specialists) and decide whether there are any grounds for further action. The Procurator is the most suitable person to carry out such preliminary examination of the facts surrounding a death because, if there are grounds for criminal proceedings, he is the one who will lead the prosecution. However, if he decides that the death was actually accidental or natural, you may see that death registered (after 1855) with the Procurator Fiscal named as the "Informant". > > I have several accidental drowning's, one off the old Tay bridge in Dundee. > must have been a suicide. I have had two die in falls during work, a > plumber and a house painter. one fell out a third story window, the other fell > from a ladder near the roof. Always been curious if the deaths were ever > investigated. Almost certainly yes. But received opinion is that the Procurator's deliberations will not have been archived. Gavin Bell

I would think that would assure all parties are innocent, and stay that way, unless or until the procurator thinks there is cause to think otherwise. We know innocent men are put to death in the U.S. I know our ways are horrid! No insult intended on Scotland system. We were put through hell, by false accusations . It took our retirement savings to put it right, so I am ashamed of our capital punishment, and the way folks jump to court to solve any problem. It cost every citizen when the "justice system" isn't just. mary sorry I meant the question to be private, but maybe someone will benefit from my ignorance. In a message dated 10/30/2012 1:30:42 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, g.bell@which.net writes: On 30/10/2012 19:23, BRUINSWOOD@aol.com wrote: > _https://www.missingpeople.org.uk/component/option,com_docman/Itemid,131/gid > ,71/task,doc_download/_ > (https://www.missingpeople.org.uk/component/option,com_docman/Itemid,131/gid,71/task,doc_download/) > just read...... thanks I had forgotten those. where are they to be found. > when is there a court inquest required? In Scotland, never. Holding an Inquest (ie a preliminary hearing in court, to determine whether there are any grounds for criminal prosecution) is the practice in England and in some other jurisdictions, but is not the only way of dealing with unexpected deaths. In Scotland, all sudden, violent or unexplained deaths are reported to the Procurator Fiscal (or public prosecutor) who will take reports from police (and, if required, from pathologists or other scientific specialists) and decide whether there are any grounds for further action. The Procurator is the most suitable person to carry out such preliminary examination of the facts surrounding a death because, if there are grounds for criminal proceedings, he is the one who will lead the prosecution. However, if he decides that the death was actually accidental or natural, you may see that death registered (after 1855) with the Procurator Fiscal named as the "Informant". > > I have several accidental drowning's, one off the old Tay bridge in Dundee. > must have been a suicide. I have had two die in falls during work, a > plumber and a house painter. one fell out a third story window, the other fell > from a ladder near the roof. Always been curious if the deaths were ever > investigated. Almost certainly yes. But received opinion is that the Procurator's deliberations will not have been archived. Gavin Bell ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ANGUS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have an ancestor who married in 1893, had a child, then seems to have disappeared. He is not with his wife and child in neither the 1901 nor the 1911 Censuses. I have a note from somewhere that his wife declared him dead in 1924. I cannot find where this note came from, nor any Death Record on Scotlands People. Can some knowledgeable person help me out as to where I might find a record of his death.

_https://www.missingpeople.org.uk/component/option,com_docman/Itemid,131/gid ,71/task,doc_download/_ (https://www.missingpeople.org.uk/component/option,com_docman/Itemid,131/gid,71/task,doc_download/) just read...... thanks I had forgotten those. where are they to be found. when is there a court inquest required? I have several accidental drowning's, one off the old Tay bridge in Dundee. must have been a suicide. I have had two die in falls during work, a plumber and a house painter. one fell out a third story window, the other fell from a ladder near the roof. Always been curious if the deaths were ever investigated. murders, and suicides happen in every time frame. possible abductions? Not everyone of mine were universally liked! Mary In a message dated 10/30/2012 3:51:11 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, gordon@kinhelp.co.uk writes: Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 17:19:47 +1100 Ian Rough <torqian@gmail.com> said: I have an ancestor who married in 1893, had a child, then seems to have disappeared. He is not with his wife and child in neither the 1901 nor the 1911 Censuses. I have a note from somewhere that his wife declared him dead in 1924. I cannot find where this note came from, nor any Death Record on Scotlands People. Can some knowledgeable person help me out as to where I might find a record of his death. Welcome to the club! I too have an ancestor whose death is not recorded in Scotland, yet there is no sign of him being elsewhere than Scotland. This has remained a mystery, and may continue to be so. In your case, consider some possibilities: 1. He may have died outside Scotland 2. He may have died in an accident where his body was not identified (drowning, fire, train crash, etc.) 3. He may have been misidentified in the registration when he died, e.g. wrong first name, or surname spelled differently 4. He may have been lost at sea, and no body found. Check the declaration of presumed death: it should say when he went missing. A good starting point. All are worth checking out. Good luck. Gordon Johnson ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ANGUS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Ian If you post the details of your man and known facts Birthplace, occupation, wife & childrens names etc it is possible someone may be able to help you find him There are lots of reasons he may not be with his family in the census, working away etc but many couples split up for a myriad of reasons It is not unusual to find an estranged woman in the census as widow, married or even single, the enumerator simply copied what the informant entered on the schedule, no checks were made Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 30/10/2012 06:19, Ian Rough wrote: > I have an ancestor who married in 1893, had a child, then seems to have > disappeared. He is not with his wife and child in neither the 1901 nor the > 1911 Censuses. I have a note from somewhere that his wife declared him dead > in 1924. I cannot find where this note came from, nor any Death Record on > Scotlands People. Can some knowledgeable person help me out as to where I > might find a record of his death.

>I have an ancestor who married in 1893, had a child, then seems to have > disappeared. He is not with his wife and child in neither the 1901 nor the > 1911 Censuses. I have a note from somewhere that his wife declared him > dead > in 1924. I cannot find where this note came from, nor any Death Record on > Scotlands People. Can some knowledgeable person help me out as to where I > might find a record of his death. > Missing from the 1901 census suggests the possibility of military service during the Boer War. However, if he had been killed, captured, gone missing in action, died of illness or even deserted surely his next of kin would have been informed. Apparently couples did split up without any formal separation or divorce. I had an elderly relative who I knew to have been married and had a son. I found a record of her marriage but nothing on her husband's death. There was no record of him having served in the forces during WW1. I learned only recently that he simply left for America and was never heard of again! Cheers, Bruce D

I have one who married in 1886, had three of a family and then vanished in 1889. His wife later formed a relationship with another man by whom she had three more children. In 1911, his son's marriage certificate says his father was deceased, and in 1919 his widow finally married her by then not so 'new' man. We later discovered that he had not died. He went to Liverpool with another woman, by whom he had a son in 1891. They then emigrated to the United States, claiming to have been married in Glasgow in 1889, but there is, not surprisingly, no sign of such a marriage. He died in 1929 in California. So ironically the errant husband omitted to commit bigamy, but the abandoned wife did unwittingly do so! As it was 30 years after his disappearance, and it had been given out almost a decade earlier that he had died, did his wife bother to have him formally declared dead before remarrying? I don't know. Anne

Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 17:19:47 +1100 Ian Rough <torqian@gmail.com> said: I have an ancestor who married in 1893, had a child, then seems to have disappeared. He is not with his wife and child in neither the 1901 nor the 1911 Censuses. I have a note from somewhere that his wife declared him dead in 1924. I cannot find where this note came from, nor any Death Record on Scotlands People. Can some knowledgeable person help me out as to where I might find a record of his death. Welcome to the club! I too have an ancestor whose death is not recorded in Scotland, yet there is no sign of him being elsewhere than Scotland. This has remained a mystery, and may continue to be so. In your case, consider some possibilities: 1. He may have died outside Scotland 2. He may have died in an accident where his body was not identified (drowning, fire, train crash, etc.) 3. He may have been misidentified in the registration when he died, e.g. wrong first name, or surname spelled differently 4. He may have been lost at sea, and no body found. Check the declaration of presumed death: it should say when he went missing. A good starting point. All are worth checking out. Good luck. Gordon Johnson

Many thanks to Nivard Ovington about the Mariners List & Wallace Fullerton for your info re the 1st, 2nd & Only Mates and Master progression, you were both very helpful. Quite a few of my Greig family from Dundee were in the Merchant Service, this William Greig was on Whaling Ships. I shall have a poke around on the Mariners list tomorrow night. Wallace I hope your hurricane didnt eventuate. Cheers, Heather > 2. Merchant Service - Only Mate (Heather Higgins) > 3. Re: Merchant Service - Only Mate (Nivard Ovington) > 4. Re: Merchant Service - Only Mate (Nivard Ovington) > 5. Re: Merchant Service - Only Mate (Wallace Fullerton) > >

Hi again I should have also mentioned that they have their own web site, where you will find a lot of useful information http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/ The National Archives research guides may also be helpful <http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/maritime-history.htm> Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 28/10/2012 08:55, Heather Higgins wrote: > Many thanks to Nivard Ovington about the Mariners List & Wallace Fullerton > for your info re the 1st, 2nd & Only Mates and Master progression, you were > both very helpful. Quite a few of my Greig family from Dundee were in the > Merchant Service, this William Greig was on Whaling Ships. I shall have a > poke around on the Mariners list tomorrow night. > Wallace I hope your hurricane didnt eventuate. > > Cheers, Heather

Greetings all I have just come across two records for my GGGf on Ancestry for Masters & Mates Certificates and have a query about the earlier one - William Greig was confirmed in Feb 1860 as an 'Only Mate', and a 'Master' in Jan 1870. Can someone please enlighten me as to what an 'Ony Mate' is. Cheers from Heather in sunny Auckland, NZ

Sorry I meant to include the lists link <http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/other/Occupations/MARINERS.html> Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 26/10/2012 21:56, Heather Higgins wrote: > Greetings all > > I have just come across two records for my GGGf on Ancestry for Masters & > Mates Certificates and have a query about the earlier one - William Greig > was confirmed in Feb 1860 as an 'Only Mate', and a 'Master' in Jan 1870. > Can someone please enlighten me as to what an 'Ony Mate' is. > Cheers from Heather in sunny Auckland, NZ

Hi Heather This came up recently on the Mariners list Try this <http://www.rmg.co.uk/researchers/library/research-guides/the-merchant-navy/tracing-people-master-mariners-mates-engineers> You might like to subscribe to the Mariners list where there are many knowledgeable people who can help with any questions you may have, many ex mariners themselves Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 26/10/2012 21:56, Heather Higgins wrote: > Greetings all > > I have just come across two records for my GGGf on Ancestry for Masters & > Mates Certificates and have a query about the earlier one - William Greig > was confirmed in Feb 1860 as an 'Only Mate', and a 'Master' in Jan 1870. > Can someone please enlighten me as to what an 'Ony Mate' is. > Cheers from Heather in sunny Auckland, NZ

Quick Google search: http://www.rmg.co.uk/search-results/?search_word=only+mate&x=0&y=0 Quote: First and Second Mates First and Second Mates were subject to a similar system of certification by the Board of Trade. The records themselves are similar in content to those for Masters, and again applications listing the ships on which a mate previously served often survive. A Second Mate could then progress to First Mate, Only Mate (able to take control of a vessel should the master be incapacitated) and Master. Frequently, if a man passed through these stages, he kept one number, and all applications and certificates will be found under the same reference. However, sometimes one man will have held several numbers, and in such cases multiple searches must be made. End Quote - Wally - Cheers back at you from a not-so-sunny-and-expecting-a-hurricane-or-something-worse Washington, DC On 10/26/2012 4:56 PM, Heather Higgins wrote: > Greetings all > > I have just come across two records for my GGGf on Ancestry for Masters & > Mates Certificates and have a query about the earlier one - William Greig > was confirmed in Feb 1860 as an 'Only Mate', and a 'Master' in Jan 1870. > Can someone please enlighten me as to what an 'Ony Mate' is. > Cheers from Heather in sunny Auckland, NZ > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ANGUS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: spav700 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.ans.general/5991/mb.ashx Message Board Post: anyone searching thomson/telfer family may possibly help - looking for decendants of a Christina Telfer (1852) married William Thomson(1844)in Jedburgh 1873 - Christina had two siblings i know of - Henry (1847) & John (1854)- parents possible Henry abt 1818 to 1823 married a Margaret Drummond (1818) - Christina & William named their boys Henry Telfer Thomson (1878)William Geo Telfer Thomson (1881) John Bell Thomson (1884) & Drummond Thomson (1889) William Thomson (1844)possible parents John(1824) married Margaret Brown (1822) in 1844 need william's siblings and grandparents Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

Gavin Although in Perthshire rather than Angus, my Sinclair family had several Christians from late 1700s (as far as I go back) which became Christina in 1889 and was used right up to 1930. My generation, born post-WW2, is the first since the first mentioned above to not have a Christian / Christina. I think the repetition of family names finally got too much for the next generation to think about! Judith Harper Nelson, NZ On 18/10/2012 21:11, Gavin Bell wrote: > For which, many thanks. I would be happy to hear of any other cases > which either confirm or contradict the theory that "Christina" (or > "Christine") progressively replaced "Christian" from the early 1800s > onwards. Gavin Bell

> For which, many thanks. I would be happy to hear of any other > cases > which either confirm or contradict the theory that "Christina" > (or > "Christine") progressively replaced "Christian" from the early > 1800s > onwards. I concur entirely. I have had a look at my own tree. I have 76 Christians, the earliest in 1630. Most of the recent ones are male. I have 178 Christinas, the earliest in 1824, and 53 Christines, the earliest born in 1892. A quick look at the Christians for whom I have baptism or marriage details and enough later records shows Christian Ballantyne, born 1838, Christina in 1901 census Christian Cruickshank, born 1799, Christian in all census, death registered as Christina Christian Harrower, married 1862, Christina in 1871 and 1881 census Christian Elizabeth Waddell, born 1826, Christian in 1851 census (in Surrey) Christian Margaret Waddell, born 1834, Christian in death notice in 1919 The indexes at Scotland's People seem to corroborate your findings Female baptisms 1538-1854 Christian 70561 (87%) Christina 8708 (11%) Christine 948 (1%) Christiana 899 (1%) Female births 1855-2011 Christian 8329 (5%) Christina 128,829 (79%) Christine 26406 (16%) Christiana 259 (0%) Female deaths 1855-2011 Christian 21043 (88%) Christina 2541 (11%) Christine 306 (1%) Christiana 157 (1%) You could do lots more detailed analysis, taking the details decade by decade, and incorporating age at death, but I don't think that is necessary to show a shift from Christian to Christina and now to Christine. Anne

On 18/10/2012 08:57, Sheila Perry wrote: > Hello, > I've found exactly what Gavin describes in my own family - one of my great-great-grandmothers was Christian when she was baptised in the 1820s and Christina when she died in the 1860s. Her daughter, born in 1850, was Christina too. There seems to have been a general changeover in mid-century. > Just some further evidence. For which, many thanks. I would be happy to hear of any other cases which either confirm or contradict the theory that "Christina" (or "Christine") progressively replaced "Christian" from the early 1800s onwards. Gavin Bell

Hello Gavin: I agree, there are several spellings of names over the years (as there are today), and I have many, many instances in my tree. This particular record I overlooked and am grateful to you bringing it to my attention. Pat -----Original Message----- From: angus-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:angus-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of angus-request@rootsweb.com Sent: October-18-12 12:00 AM To: angus@rootsweb.com Subject: ANGUS Digest, Vol 7, Issue 254 If you are responding to an item in this Digest, please remember to use the item, title, not the Digest title, so that other people can see what you are responding to! Thank you. Today's Topics: 1. Re: Christian/Christina (Gavin Bell) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 09:22:03 +0100 From: Gavin Bell <g.bell@which.net> Subject: Re: [ANGUS] Christian/Christina To: Anne Burgess <anne.burgess@btinternet.com>, angus@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <507E6AAB.3000602@which.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 16/10/2012 18:57, Pat Galovich wrote: >> ScotlandsPeople 1841 census does not include any record for >> James "Stephen" >> and "Christian", however, see above. On 16/10/2012 19:18, Anne Burgess wrote: > Pat, ***please*** don't get hung up on spelling. There was no > such thing as 'correct' spelling. Christina and Christian are > totally interchangeable, and so are Stephen and Steven. James > and Christina Steven are the same as James and Christian > Stephen. As a by-product of a number of genealogical data-sets which I maintain, I have a collection of over 100,000 surname and forename variants dating from 1500 to the present. This includes 1018 instances of "Christian" dating from 1626 to 1989 (although I have never met a female "Christian" and suspect that the later occurrences may be males). Interestingly, "Christina", of which there are 580 examples, appears to represent a rather more recent usage, the earliest occurrence being in 1813. Gavin Bell ------------------------------ To contact the ANGUS list administrator, send an email to ANGUS-admin@rootsweb.com. To post a message to the ANGUS mailing list, send an email to ANGUS@rootsweb.com. __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ANGUS-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of ANGUS Digest, Vol 7, Issue 254 *************************************