My, what a helpful and sympathetic list! Many, many thanks to all who replied, especially Ruth and Daphne. Both brothers listed their occupations as builders labourers/bricklayers in their first traceable census. Ralph FERRIE (my great-grandfather) later bought a fruitiers in Stone, Staffordshire (apparently after he had deserted his first family, and started a second family). I wouldn't have thought that there were many Italians in Stafford & Stone - he must have stuck out like a sore thumb! :-) Dominick, his brother in Liverpool, was still a labourer on the day he died (through drink, according to his death cert - probably trying to trace his family tree, goodness knows its driving me to drink!). I am almost sure that my researcher only looked for naturalisation records, and nothing else. Daphne - I would love a copy of the article about the Boulogne records as I cannot find it. I have tried RC churches in Liverpool (well as many as I can, and the most likely - there are an awful lot) with no trace of any marriage. The 1871 census for Liverpool isn't indexed, either, so although I've checked the most likely 'Italian Quarter' addresses, I might be missing them. FERRIE is pronounced 'Ferry' so I think it most likely - and unfortunate - that I should be looking for a family originally named FERRI (although it does seem odd that both brothers, living fairly far apart, maintained the spelling of FERRIE, unless they both agreed to it beforehand). Thanks once again - you are a lovely bunch. A Williams [email protected]

Hello Elaine, your database seems a great idea. Would you kindly add my information to the database please: London?, 1850's, Naples?, Musician. Would it be useful to add the family name? If so, please add mine, EROTY/ERROTTI. I look forward the the formation of the AIFHS - good luck and thank you. Diane -----Original Message----- From: Elaine Collins [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 12:45 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [Anglo-Italian] Deducing where they came from - help needed It seems that one of the hardest things we face in tracing our Italian ancestors is working out where they came from originally. That's the holy grail as the records in Italy are very localised, but very comprehensive if you can track down the right archive or parish, and persuade the powers that be to give you access. One of the things I'm trying to do for the AIFHS website is to help people to narrow down their search when census records etc have drawn a blank by helping to make deductions using what clues are available, such as where they settled when they arrived, when they arrived, what jobs they did when they arrived. This is obviously not foolproof but there do seem to be broad patterns that may point in a fruitful direction. I've started assembling the following as a database. It is still extremely sketchy, based on about an hour and half skimming through Terri Colpi's book The Italian Factor and Lucio Sponza's Italian immigrants in Nineteenth-century Britain, and bits I've gleaned from the list. I'm having problems getting hold of copies of these books to borrow for further study, and there must be other useful sources as well. If anyone can add anything to the following list therefore I'd be extremely grateful. In particular I think some of the terms listed refer to the names by which people from a region are known, rather than the name of the region, so corrections from those more familiar with Italian geography and language than me will be much appreciated! And does anyone want to take this on as a project? Thanks in advance, Elaine Town/City District Approximate dates Place of origin Occupations Woking 1960s Sutera, Sicily Mushroom farming Woking 1960s Mussomeli, Sicily Mushroom farming Woking 1960s Solerno, Italy Mushroom farming Liverpool 19th century Seamen, Mainly people wanting to emigrate to America Glamorgan 19th century Seamen, Mainly people wanting to emigrate to America Cardiff Organ grinders via London Cardiff Ice cream vendors via London Cardiff Chestnut vendors via London London Holborn from 1861 Lombardy London Holborn from 1861 Emilia Romagna London Holborn from 1861 Tuscany London Holborn from 1861 Campagna Wales Emilian Valleys (Ceno, Taro etc) Glasgow Garnet Hill Tuscany, espcially Barga Edinburgh Grassmarkets Liri Valley 19th century Upper Val tara (Parma at the juncture of Emilia, liguria and Tuscany Bristol Bedford Busso (Cb) Bedford Montefalcione (Av) Bedford Sant' Angelo Muzaro (Ag) Bedford Buonvicino (Cs) Bedford Castelluccio (Fg) Greenock, Scotland Frosinone, Belmonte, Castello Bedford Campani Glasgow Lucchesi Statuette sellers Swindon Calabresi, Sarda Ichnusa, Abruzzo e Molise, Trinacria 1891-1905 More people from the South, though 24% from Lombardy London Soho 1890s Mostly northern Italians, Piemontesi, Lombardi. Catering Manchester Ancoats Perth Parma, esp Burgo Val di Tara and Bardi Dundee Parma, esp Burgo Val di Tara and Bardi Aberdeen Parma, esp Burgo Val di Tara and Bardi Stonehaven Parma, esp Burgo Val di Tara and Bardi Fraserburgh Parma, esp Burgo Val di Tara and Bardi Welsh Valleys Parma, esp Burgo Val di Tara and Bardi Porth Treorchy Parma, esp Burgo Val di Tara and Bardi Tonypandy Parma, esp Burgo Val di Tara and Bardi Merthyr Tydfil Parma, esp Burgo Val di Tara and Bardi Paisley Lucchesi Statuette sellers Scotland, West Coast Lucchesi Statuette sellers Inverness Lucchesi Statuette sellers Leicester Barghigiani Carlisle Barghigiani Barrow in Furness Barghigiani Dundee Rome ==== ANGLO-ITALIAN Mailing List ==== Italian Research http://www.dreamwater.net/anglersrest/Italian.htm ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

Dear Elaine, Thanks for that information, - but it is mostly too early for my search. As you are in London - are you anywhere near Fulham or Hammersmith area, and if so would you know if there are any Catholic churches in that area that would have celebrated marriages round about 1905-1910 ? I cannot track the marriage of my grand parents in the GRO and am wondering if it might have taken place in a Catholic church and the record not have been transferred to the GRO. They were Albino Flavio GIOIA and Florence Mary TAPLIN, and although I know ALL about her, I can find nothing at all about him Cheers Eunice in Queensland

Hi Eunice, Hope you don't mind me barging in but....What about the Servite Church (Our Lady of Dolours) Fulham Road, SW10? From the information I have the Church has an Italian connection starting with the founding Servite fathers of Bosio and Morini, some artwork by Father Simoni, the Altar of S. Magdalene is entirely of Italian workmanship and another altar was done by a former member of the congregation Sig. Antonio Bulletti. The book I have with this detail was published in 1926 so the time frame would be right but I'm not sure about the location, although it is on Fulham Road its more Kensington area I believe. Other Fulham/Hammersmith Catholic Churches mentioned are: St Thomas of Canterbury, Rylston Road, Fulham SW6 Our Lady of Perpetual Help (Succour), Stephendale Road, Fulham SW6 but this wasn't opened until 1922 The Holy Cross, Parsons Green, Ashington Road, SW6. Website: http://www.holy-cross.freeserve.co.uk/Home_page_1.htm If you click on 'The Church' tab you'll get to the history, records and architecture pages. Holy Trinity, Brook Green, Hammersmith W6 St Augustine's, 55 Fulham Palace Road, Hammersmith W6 (The Augustinian Fathers founded a mission in 1903 where mass was said in a house-chapel in Comeragh Road. The Fathers moved to Fulham Palace Road in 1906 and opened a temporary iron chapel. The foundation stone for a larger church was laid in 1915 and the opening occurred in 1916. All the addresses are as per the book details ie in 1926 so street names may have changed since then. Victorian Catholic London churches are also listed here: http://www.gendocs.demon.co.uk/cath.html Regards, Susana --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.343 / Virus Database: 190 - Release Date: 22/03/2002

Hi everybody, For over a year I have been trying to get hold of a copy of the complete records for Como in Italy. I live on the island of Ibiza and there is no Family History Center anywhere near here. Thanks to a volunteer in Utah I have been able to get quiet a few Birth, death and marriage records for my family Desio. However I still have many things to check out. I wrote to the FHL to see if it was possible to buy a copy of the records so I could check them myself, the answer was that I needed to be a Genealogical Soc. to be able to obtain them. I am willing to copy out the full records for everyone that like myself can't get to a FHC but need ideas of how to get hold of a copy Ruth

I have just tried out the Google in Italian and the only surnames using Ferrie are English or American. I have a feeling that his Surname was changed slightly when he went to the UK this often happened. I think it could be Ferrari or even Ferreri. Don't give in we all get to Brick Walls at sometime and when we least expect it something turns up. Ruth ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 7:07 PM Subject: [Anglo-Italian] Ideas Wanted To Demolish My Brickwall > Does anyone have any fresh ideas for me to try - I feel like I'm running > round in circles, and because I'm trying so hard to solve this 2-year old > puzzle, I wonder if I've missed something? My great-grandfather Ralph FERRIE > was born in Italy (?where). I'm not sure when, as his age varies so much in > the different census' and on his 1942 death certificate - I have a timespan > of 1851-1862. His brother Dominick FERRIE was born in Italy, too (the 1881 > census for him states Naples) sometime around 1845-50. I have been told that > the only info. the family have is that both walked across Europe to reach > England. I can find neither brother in the 1871 census of Staffordshire, > although both brothers declare children born in Staffordshire between 1872 > and 1877. Dominick married Annie Evans, who gave her birthplace as > Liverpool, and although there are records for his first child being born in > Staffordshire in @ 1872, by 1883 he and Annie were living in Liverpool. > Ralph married Matilda Malpass from Stafford - his first child was born in > 1877 in Stafford, and he remained in Stafford and later Stone (which is near > Stafford). Both families subsequently appear in the 1881, 1891 and 1901 > census in Liverpool and Stafford. From this information, and their age > ranges, I 'suppose' a date of immigration of @ 1868-70. I can find no > record, either in the Civil Index or in the Parish Churches of a marriage for > either brother. The likely RC Churches in Stafford likewise either don't > have records for the appropriate dates, or there is no trace. I have no > reason to believe that either of the spouses were Catholics. I had a > professional researcher check the Naturalisation Index at the PRO, with no > result (although the 1901 census states that Dominick was 'naturalised'). I > obtained a copy of my great-grandfathers will, hoping that he might have left > a legacy to his home town/village in Italy - but he didn't, unfortunately. > To complicate things, there is no record of any family name of FERRIE in > Italy, although both brothers always use the spelling in the census and on > their children's birth certificates. I suppose that 'FERRI' is the most > likely candidate - but that appears to be like looking for 'Smith' in > England. Any advice? Please? Before I go mad? > A Williams > [email protected] > > > ==== ANGLO-ITALIAN Mailing List ==== > Italian Research > http://www.dreamwater.net/anglersrest/Italian.htm > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >

Thanks very much for that. I've tried family search, with no luck, but I'll try the other website today. A Williams [email protected]

----- Original Message ----- From: "Linda Gale" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 7:06 PM Subject: Aldrovandi Family Hello Listers Does anyone have any information about a family of the name of Aldrovandi who came to London from New York but originated from Italy? The brothers, one of which was called Innocent, returned to the States but the daughter Julia Victoria Mary remained in England marrying and living in Suffolk. Many thanks in anticipation Linda Gale --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by Expert Anti-Virus. Version: 6.0.343 / Virus Database: 190 - Release Date: 2002-22-Mar

Hi Sarah I don't know if any of the following will help you, but it may help someone else who is stuck or prompt more suitable suggestions. I'm also trying to trace my relative's birthplace, but timing is different with my gg grandfather arriving by 1851 when he married in the eyes of the RC church but not of the GRO. I think you may have different documentation available to you if your relative was born approx. 1871 in Italy. You've obviously got several London addresses, but do you know approximately when he arrived in England or how he travelled? I'm thinking of port/ships records (including ones in France or wherever he sailed from), as well as his age. Who did he already know in London? (was your g grandmother British or Italian - from the same area?) It's likely he came as part of the pattern of chain migration. (See T. Colpi, 1991, "The Italian Factor: The Italian Community in Great Britain") Who were the god parents and marriage witnesses and where do they come from if from Italy? If your father's involved in the Italian community - would he know people from the same village or did he get involved with no introductions? Did your g grandfather naturalise? PRO records. Have you tried to obtain his Italian conscription record from the state archives? I am not sure if anyone on this list has done this, but the records are described in Trafford Cole's book (and too late for me as they are of men born from 1855). Your g grandfather would have been liable for Italian military service at 18, so if he emigrated after that they should exist. I see (from GENS) that Rapetti is a reasonably common surname in northern Italy so I realise he may be difficult to find with only one (common) Christian name and no precise birthdate. His parent's names may be helpful for this but I presume you don't have them? My Italian immigrant's parents were named on the recent copy of his church marriage (1851) certificate (but not his mother's surname), although the priest omitted baptism details, for which there is a space on what I take to be a modern form. What sort of details can you get from your g grandparents marriage in 1914 - at the GRO and at the church? My grandparents married in 1915 and both their fathers' names, surnames and occupations are given. Hope this triggers some ideas. Daphne Dashfield (GERADINE) GHIRARDANI + 14 other spellings > My great grandfather, Luigi (Louis) Rapetti, came to London from Italy > (Torino, I believe although no documents can be found to back this up) and > lived in various addresses including, Warrington Street; Wells Street, Soho > & > Little Bath Street, Holborn. From the British documents I have, he would > have been born around 1871/2. He married my great-grandmother AFTER the > birth of their three children (which seems strange) and they weren't married > in the Italian Church but St Aloysius in Euston in 1914. > <snip> > Sarah Lucia RAPETTI

Have you looked at familysearch.com? Another useful site for general research for Italian roots is http://www.arduini.net/tocs07.htm Happy hunting! Brian in Bristol UK researching Arnaboldi. Bye!

Thanks very much to Sarah Rapetti for suggesting the Gens.Labo.Net website (which I hadn't heard of, but I've used a similar site). Unfortunately, the one FERRIE in the Turin area has already had an 'approach' from me, and he's an American businessman living in Turin - so (typical of the FERRIE quest) another brick in the wall! But I'm grateful for the suggestion, anyway. A Williams [email protected]

Someone mentioned family who were married at St Aloysius and noted that although not a specifically Italian church, there were a number of Italians who worshipped there, as there may have been at many Roman Catholic churches. The Catholic Family History Society has indexed a number of mission registers and memorial inscriptions, and these can be consulted at the Catholic Library. For a list of the registers available see htt'://www.catholic-library.org.uk/registers.html. There are apparently even more transcripts available in the library, other than those loaned by the CFHS, though I don't think the full list can be consulted online. Of particular interest to listers are the memorial Inscriptions from 1800s and 1900s for East Finchley, St Pancras and Islington Cemetery, which I think is where most Clerkenwell dwellers would have been buried. Baptisms in the Neapolitan chapel 1764-1820, Baptisms in the Sardinian 1731-1772, St Aolysius confirmations 1808-1819 might also prove useful. Has anyone got the list of publications by the CFHS? (Shame they haven't put it online). Are there any of particular relevance to AIs? Kind regards, Elaine in London

I know what it's like to come up against brickwalls - my sympathy is with you. Keep persevering!! On looking up FERRIE on WWW.GENS.LABO.NET website (are you familiar with this?) it features in Torino (Piemonte) only so your task may hopefully be straightforward. Let me know if you think I can help any more... Best of luck Sarah Lucia RAPETTI (researching RAPETTI and MEANI)

Does anyone have any fresh ideas for me to try - I feel like I'm running round in circles, and because I'm trying so hard to solve this 2-year old puzzle, I wonder if I've missed something? My great-grandfather Ralph FERRIE was born in Italy (?where). I'm not sure when, as his age varies so much in the different census' and on his 1942 death certificate - I have a timespan of 1851-1862. His brother Dominick FERRIE was born in Italy, too (the 1881 census for him states Naples) sometime around 1845-50. I have been told that the only info. the family have is that both walked across Europe to reach England. I can find neither brother in the 1871 census of Staffordshire, although both brothers declare children born in Staffordshire between 1872 and 1877. Dominick married Annie Evans, who gave her birthplace as Liverpool, and although there are records for his first child being born in Staffordshire in @ 1872, by 1883 he and Annie were living in Liverpool. Ralph married Matilda Malpass from Stafford - his first child was born in 1877 in Stafford, and he remained in Stafford and later Stone (which is near Stafford). Both families subsequently appear in the 1881, 1891 and 1901 census in Liverpool and Stafford. From this information, and their age ranges, I 'suppose' a date of immigration of @ 1868-70. I can find no record, either in the Civil Index or in the Parish Churches of a marriage for either brother. The likely RC Churches in Stafford likewise either don't have records for the appropriate dates, or there is no trace. I have no reason to believe that either of the spouses were Catholics. I had a professional researcher check the Naturalisation Index at the PRO, with no result (although the 1901 census states that Dominick was 'naturalised'). I obtained a copy of my great-grandfathers will, hoping that he might have left a legacy to his home town/village in Italy - but he didn't, unfortunately. To complicate things, there is no record of any family name of FERRIE in Italy, although both brothers always use the spelling in the census and on their children's birth certificates. I suppose that 'FERRI' is the most likely candidate - but that appears to be like looking for 'Smith' in England. Any advice? Please? Before I go mad? A Williams [email protected]

-----Original Message----- From: Elaine Collins [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 5:48 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [Anglo-Italian] Catholic registers Someone mentioned family who were married at St Aloysius and noted that although not a specifically Italian church, there were a number of Italians who worshipped there, as there may have been at many Roman Catholic churches. The Catholic Family History Society has indexed a number of mission registers and memorial inscriptions, and these can be consulted at the Catholic Library. For a list of the registers available see htt'://www.catholic-library.org.uk/registers.html. There are apparently even more transcripts available in the library, other than those loaned by the CFHS, though I don't think the full list can be consulted online. Of particular interest to listers are the memorial Inscriptions from 1800s and 1900s for East Finchley, St Pancras and Islington Cemetery, which I think is where most Clerkenwell dwellers would have been buried. Baptisms in the Neapolitan chapel 1764-1820, Baptisms in the Sardinian 1731-1772, St Aolysius confirmations 1808-1819 might also prove useful. Has anyone got the list of publications by the CFHS? (Shame they haven't put it online). Are there any of particular relevance to AIs? Kind regards, Elaine in London ==== ANGLO-ITALIAN Mailing List ==== Inaugural Meeting of the Anglo-Italian Family History At the SOG Fair at 3pm For the venue address look at http://www.dreamwater.net/anglersrest/Italian.htm ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

----- Original Message ----- From: "stephen noke" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 5:11 PM Subject: tomasso i am tracing my family name of Tomasso,in particular a Salvatore Tomasso who emigrated from England in the 23rd january 1905 he left via the port of southampton on the ship SS St louis,he lived in Chatham Kent and ws heading for 10 jule street Rochester nyand the persons name is mr f Marsaialla.He came from the Vallerotonda area of Italy. can anyboady help joanna _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by Expert Anti-Virus. Version: 6.0.343 / Virus Database: 190 - Release Date: 2002-22-Mar

Dear Eunice, I pasted and copied this information from Pro-online. You may want to email the Pro-online or fax (number below) The Kew Public Record Office about the alien registry that they have in the map room. See what they have to say. The alien registry are in very old, large books, several of them. I happen to find my husband's ancester in the first book I was looking in. They may send you a list of names of people that may be willing to research this for you for a fee or they may suggest something else. Retha Amadio Contact PRO-Online If you have any questions or suggestions about PRO-Online, please fill in our Questionnaire Or contact us at : email:[email protected] Tel. No.:+44 (0)20 8876 3444 Address: The Public Record Office Kew Richmond Surrey United Kingdom TW9 4DU Fax No.: +44 (0)20 8392 5283 Minicom: +44 (0)20 8392 9198 On Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:30:28 +1000 E & R Shanahan <[email protected]> writes: > Many thanks Retha for that information - I bet I will be in the same > boat > as you then, if everything else I have tried to track for my > grandfather is > a pointer ! but I will try it anyway. I realise that I will not > get > anything from the PRO website, but at least I will know where to > look - > that's the trouble, being online spoils you, as it is such a help > to > people like us living 12000 miles away from Kew, they seem to think > its so > easy to get there and look up the records ! > > Cheers > Eunice in Queensland Australia > P.S. I went into the site and they have only two references one for > 1918-1938 for Aliens Registry Weeding > and 1934-1936 for an alteration in the system of registration > > As I need from about 1880 -1910 I am obviously out of luck again > > Cheers > Eunice > > > ==== ANGLO-ITALIAN Mailing List ==== > Inaugural Meeting of the Anglo-Italian Family History > At the SOG Fair at 3pm For the venue address look at > http://www.dreamwater.net/anglersrest/Italian.htm > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy > records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

G'day all, Posting interests which are TROILLET/TROLLIETTI. First UK reference to this family that I have been able to find is in 1807 in Pork Shambles, Manchester. The Troillet family is currently living in the Canton Valais in Switzerland and is of some importance there. They may be descended from the Trollietti (var. spellings) who I gather is located in and around Stresa in N. Italy. Any ideas about tracing earlier records in UK appreciated. Thanks Graham Houghton Adelaide, South Australia

Many thanks Retha for that information - I bet I will be in the same boat as you then, if everything else I have tried to track for my grandfather is a pointer ! but I will try it anyway. I realise that I will not get anything from the PRO website, but at least I will know where to look - that's the trouble, being online spoils you, as it is such a help to people like us living 12000 miles away from Kew, they seem to think its so easy to get there and look up the records ! Cheers Eunice in Queensland Australia P.S. I went into the site and they have only two references one for 1918-1938 for Aliens Registry Weeding and 1934-1936 for an alteration in the system of registration As I need from about 1880 -1910 I am obviously out of luck again Cheers Eunice

There is a great site dedicated to tracing circus, theatre and music hall families that also collects other performers and people whose work forced them to travel. http://www.entertainer-genealogy.org.uk/ The census section contains great extracts from people who listed their occupations as entertainers of all descriptions, and many who were away from home on census night because of their work. Happy hunting! Elaine