Can anyone tell me if and where records were kept for people who changed names when arriving in England from Italy . In this case the name would have gone from Rapacioli to Loring. Loring could have been the name of Ernesto Rapacioli.s employer. This would have taken place between 1893 and 1899 Thanks Felicia

I have been researching our family name for some time now, and I was told by a cousin that we originated in Northern Italy, moved to France and then on to Canada in 1752. My gg??Grandfather spelled his name Mariette, or that was the spelling on the ship's list. In Canada it got change to Marriette and it is now spelled Marryatt. His first name was Etienne and the ships records [the Pearl] also says he originated in Etoben Montbeliard France. This area of France is close to the Italian border, so it is possible that he went to Italy then to England or Holland then on to Canada. If the spelling of the name is not Italian, then he must have been French. Any help would be most appreciated. Richard Marryatt Alberta Canada [email protected] or web page Http://www.Prairie-winds.com

Here is a few tips on the sounding of Italian Surnames. E at the begining sounds similar to "air" air-roti = Erotti I at the begining and end sounds E Erotti o Erotte but I think is should be spelt Errotti G at the begining sounds J like Jelly Ghi at the begining sounds Ji (jim) Ghe does not exist J is not used in Italian Giu = Giuseppe sounds jewzepe S sounds like Z for instance Brazil in Italian is spelt Brasil and expresso is spelt exprezzo but sounds like "so" Desio my Grandfathers surname sounds Decio, if writen De Sio it would sound De Zio, however I have found it writen on papers as Dessio. I am pretty certain the Daphne's Surname is GERARDINI(E). GHIRADANI is incorrect also GHERARDINI the first because of the DANI and the second GHE Hope this gives you some ideas Ruth

Hello Ruth Also, if you come across double consonants in Italian you have to pronounce both of them. I had great difficulty with my surname when I first got married because I didn't sound both CCs individually! BaCCino and BaCino are two very different sounds. Su London ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruth <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 9:45 AM Subject: [Anglo-Italian] Spelling of Surnames > Here is a few tips on the sounding of Italian Surnames. > E at the begining sounds similar to "air" air-roti = Erotti > I at the begining and end sounds E Erotti o Erotte but I think is should be spelt Errotti > G at the begining sounds J like Jelly > Ghi at the begining sounds Ji (jim) > Ghe does not exist > J is not used in Italian > Giu = Giuseppe sounds jewzepe > S sounds like Z for instance Brazil in Italian is spelt Brasil and expresso is spelt exprezzo but sounds like "so" > Desio my Grandfathers surname sounds Decio, if writen De Sio it would sound De Zio, however I have found it writen on papers as Dessio. > I am pretty certain the Daphne's Surname is GERARDINI(E). > GHIRADANI is incorrect also GHERARDINI the first because of the DANI and the second GHE > Hope this gives you some ideas > Ruth > > > ==== ANGLO-ITALIAN Mailing List ==== > Italian Research > http://www.dreamwater.net/anglersrest/Italian.htm > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >

Colpi, 1991, "The Italian Factor : The Italian community in Great Britain" describes the development of the Italian catering industry in Britain. (Highly recommended reading) It seems to start with the declining popularity of street musicians (by 1880s) and introduction of importing and selling roast chestnuts from the Garfagnana, Lunigiana, Val Taro (Pr) and Val Magra areas. (Not Naples) Gatti (an ice importer) introduced ice cream in the 1850s and in 1864 Domenico Santorelli from Longarone (Bl) brought an handpainted ice cream cart shaped like a gondala with him. Ice cream making was carried out at home and became very popular as a mainly summer activity, with chestnuts in winter. Fleets of barrows were owned by Padrone (ie bosses that employed other Italians) with about 900 ice cream barrows in Clerkenwell, London at the turn of the twentieth century. (It took place in other areas too and I don't see why it couldn't involve someone from Naples - although the term 'Neapolitan' was used more generally for Italians) My gg grandfather from northern Italy, probably Parma province, previously a musician, was an ice cream maker in 1876 then an ice cream seller (1881) and back as a street musician by 1891 (in Clerkenwell). Seem to be typical occupations for this community. It's probably important to grasp the padrone system whereby the "bosses" brought in friends and family from their home areas and employed them in their businesses. Perhaps a padrone had labouring businesses as well as ice cream? Certainly later on some of my family (sons of the musician/ice cream maker) ran an asphalting business employing others as labourers. Dirty work that Italians would take on where British were reluctant. Daphne Dashfield (Geradine) GHIRARDANI etc.

> In regards to my family, another researcher turned up the name EROLI / > Guiseppe, merchant marine and suggested this is probably my family, some of > the documentation supporting this theory looks like it could fit but it > belies the story gg'mother told about her family's background. Oh dear, > just what does one believe! In my experience, Diane, it's wise to take what gggrandmother said with large, heart-threatening, doses of salt!

The work was seasonal - unless they had fixed premises (which very few if any did in 19th century) - they travelled around with carts selling ice cream. They were known as 'Hokey Pokey' men. But for obvious reasons the work was only really viable in the summer months. Some people went back to Italy for the Winter if they had saved enough money and hadn't yet settled here, otherwise they took jobs, very often in construction and particularly as asphalters and paviours as these were easier lines for Italians to break into. There are a number of good articles about this, as well as coverage in the following books: Terri Colpi, The Italian Factor. The Italian Community in Great Britain (London: Mainstream, 1991). ISBN: 1851583343 Lucio Sponza, Italian Immigrants in Nineteenth-Century Britain: Realities and Images (Leicester: Leicester University Press, 1988 0718512871 I will try to post the details of the articles early next week, when I'm back at home. Elaine > Does anyone have knowledge about Ice Cream? I have some info that my > great-grandfather was calling himself an Ice Cream vendor in 1880, but in the > 1881 census, he is a builders labourer. Did many Italians run two > jobs/careers, or was it just a case of giving up one to take on the other. > Did Ice Cream vendors usually make the stuff at home, or were they agents for > larger firms usually? Lastly, did most Ice Cream vendors come from one > particular area of Italy (hopefully Naples?). > Thanks for any help/advice > A Williams > [email protected] > > > ==== ANGLO-ITALIAN Mailing List ==== > Italian Research > http://www.dreamwater.net/anglersrest/Italian.htm > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go > to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >

Thanks, Elaine, that's most helpful. Aileen

Thanks Daphne, for that information. It clarifies things very well. Aileen

Hello Daphne, I read your message with great - several factors gel with my gtgranmother's family. The surname EROTTI / EROTY (possibly the English variant) arrived in England 1858/59 and on ggrandmother's first marriage certificate her father's occupation is listed as 'musician'. I have been unable to find any variant of the name on any Census record. London was given as her birthplace but I have nothing more than that. Does your publication "TheItalian Factor..." say anything about Italian migration around the late 1850's? In regards to my family, another researcher turned up the name EROLI / Guiseppe, merchant marine and suggested this is probably my family, some of the documentation supporting this theory looks like it could fit but it belies the story gg'mother told about her family's background. Oh dear, just what does one believe! Anyway, thank you for your informative message. Diane -----Original Message----- From: Daphne Dashfield [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 5:24 PM To: [email protected]web.com Subject: [Anglo-Italian] Re: Ice Cream Colpi, 1991, "The Italian Factor : The Italian community in Great Britain" describes the development of the Italian catering industry in Britain. (Highly recommended reading) It seems to start with the declining popularity of street musicians (by 1880s) and introduction of importing and selling roast chestnuts from the Garfagnana, Lunigiana, Val Taro (Pr) and Val Magra areas. (Not Naples) Gatti (an ice importer) introduced ice cream in the 1850s and in 1864 Domenico Santorelli from Longarone (Bl) brought an handpainted ice cream cart shaped like a gondala with him. Ice cream making was carried out at home and became very popular as a mainly summer activity, with chestnuts in winter. Fleets of barrows were owned by Padrone (ie bosses that employed other Italians) with about 900 ice cream barrows in Clerkenwell, London at the turn of the twentieth century. (It took place in other areas too and I don't see why it couldn't involve someone from Naples - although the term 'Neapolitan' was used more generally for Italians) My gg grandfather from northern Italy, probably Parma province, previously a musician, was an ice cream maker in 1876 then an ice cream seller (1881) and back as a street musician by 1891 (in Clerkenwell). Seem to be typical occupations for this community. It's probably important to grasp the padrone system whereby the "bosses" brought in friends and family from their home areas and employed them in their businesses. Perhaps a padrone had labouring businesses as well as ice cream? Certainly later on some of my family (sons of the musician/ice cream maker) ran an asphalting business employing others as labourers. Dirty work that Italians would take on where British were reluctant. Daphne Dashfield (Geradine) GHIRARDANI etc. ==== ANGLO-ITALIAN Mailing List ==== Italian Research http://www.dreamwater.net/anglersrest/Italian.htm ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

> I have been told there is a web site that shows the 'spread' of surnames in Italy. Does anyone know where it is? > Maggie in Vancouver Either http://gens.labo.net/it/cognomi/ or http://elenco.iol.it/elencotel/public/RicercaOmonimie.jsp Elenco looks different from when I last used it but it still seems to work ok. You can also get phone nos. here. Daphne Dashfield (Geradine) GHIRARDANI, etc.

Does anyone have knowledge about Ice Cream? I have some info that my great-grandfather was calling himself an Ice Cream vendor in 1880, but in the 1881 census, he is a builders labourer. Did many Italians run two jobs/careers, or was it just a case of giving up one to take on the other. Did Ice Cream vendors usually make the stuff at home, or were they agents for larger firms usually? Lastly, did most Ice Cream vendors come from one particular area of Italy (hopefully Naples?). Thanks for any help/advice A Williams [email protected]

Hi Everybody, Saw this on the Rootsweb review it could be of interest to some of you. Ruth ENGLISH PARISH REGISTERS by ROD NEEP. Covering descriptions of English parish registers for baptisms, marriages, and burials, with examples, plus tips on how to transcribe parish registers onto a computer database, and some actual register transcriptions. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~engregisters/home.htm

Does anyone know of any records for prisoners of war (WW11) in this country? The Foreign Office pointedme in the direction of the PRO, but these seem to be odd medical and general notes. Did nobody have a list of prisoners! My father was put to work on a Bedfordshire Farm until sent back to Italy. I know an official photo was taken with a prisoner number board, but unfortunately the picture has been lost. He returned to England after the war but was never naturalised. He was supposed to have been born in Suzzara, Italy, but when I enquired, the only reference sent back was for a younger brother,( there were three boys and a girl altogether). Any suggestions, perhaps the registrar in Mantova mistook which person I was after, but I don't know how to rectify that. Norina _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

New Interests; Trazzi Lottardi Magri All from Mantova area, northern Italy, along with Solera. Norina _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

Hi Sarah, I have no idea whether they could be related, though it they have any interest in family history or long memories, I'd love to get in touch. I know nothing about my Ostacchinis apart from that Luisa married my g g grandfather, Giuseppe Alzapiedi, but we have some reason to believe that they may have come as part of a chain migration, probably organised by the Os rather than the As, so there is a good chance of a connection. And another branch of Alzapiedis, with whom I have not yet managed to prove a connection, are also interrelated with other Ostacchini's as shown in the following extracts from the baptism registers of St Peters. If anyone recognised the names of any of the godparents I'd love to hear. Family name child father mother maiden name godfather godmother Year OSTACCHINI Antony John Henrietta Sara Dunstin 1883 ALZAPIEDI Giovanni Giuseppe Luisa Ostacchini Giulio Fugassi Caterina Ferrari 1886 ALZAPIEDI Fiorento Dominic Giuseppe Luisa Ostacchini Pietri R**chetti Francesca Bazzini 1890 OSTACCHINI Valentino Antony Eugenie Barbieri Antony Borzoni Louisa Borzoni 1897 ALZAPIEDI Giuseppe Seraphino Cirilo Luisa Zucchone Serafino Zucchone Teresa Limonetti 1897 OSTACCHINI Clementine Maria Luigi Maria Barbieri Cirilli Alzapiedi Eugenie Ostaccini 1898 OSTACCHINI Ferdinand Joseph Dominic Antony Eugenie Barbieri Dominic Fugaccia Margaret Lisandrini 1901 OSTACCHINI Emilio Luigi Maria Barbieri 1902 OSTACCHINI Guido Antony Luigi Maria Barbieri 1904 OSTACCHINI Amelia Eugenia Luigi Maria Barbieri Bartolomeo Zaccarini Anglea Costella 1906 Many thanks, Elaine > Just read your message and I know of Ostacchini's who lived in Hillmarton > Road, London, N7 (Holloway / Camden / Caledonian Road borders). Is this any > good to you do you think? If so I will try and locate exact address. > > Regards > > Sarah Lucia RAPETTI > researching RAPETTI & MEANI > > > ==== ANGLO-ITALIAN Mailing List ==== > Italian Research > http://www.dreamwater.net/anglersrest/Italian.htm > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go > to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >

Hi Elaine I've just realised the neighbours at 8 Bakers Row in 1881 census are also my relatives - and possibly yours, Elaine. If not, it's an indication of spelling you may have to try to find your OSTACCHINI family. You may recollect Maria GHIRARDANI married Vincenzo STACCHINI in 1875. It now seems to be DI STACCHINI. (I couldn't find them before in the 1881) At no. 8 Bakers Row, Clerkenwell: Vincenso DISTAKINI M 32 M Italy Fruiterer Mary DISTAKINI M 26 Holborn Wife Luigi JABICORANI (needs translating perhaps?) U 31 M Italy Boarder Ice Cream Seller Alexander DISTAKANI U 30 M Italy Boarder Ice Cream Seller Julie DISTAKANI U 28 F Italy Boarder Angelo BASSI U 30 M Italy Boarder Ice Cream Seller I think the spellings of this particular enumerator/ transcriber combination are very problematic. Anyone seeking Italians may have to trawl through all the likely streets in the index and think very laterally. I know this couple could not write since they were witnesses to a marriage. Many of the Italians and even the 2nd generation born in Britain may have been unable to write. No wonder the enumerator got it wrong. Daphne

I thought I'd share some good news to encourage others. I have found my gg grandfather in the 1881 census index with yet another spelling variation - GLARINI. (originally GHIRARDANI). Still only says Italy as birthplace, but at least I now know where to look in the enumerators notes to see if there are any crossed out clues like there seems to be in the 1891 census. I hope this will encourage you all to be very lateral thinkers and to persist. Also to try to obtain any available marriage and birth certificates because they contain useful clues - such as addresses, occupations and witnesses. I found the family by looking at the address they occupied in 1876 when my great grandfather married. I had just received a photocopy of the original marriage certificate from a relative. It was delightful (if hard to read) - my gg grandfather by then had become an ice cream maker - so typical of that period in the Clerkenwell colony. It seems neither my g grandmother nor the witnesses, my g grandfather's sister and husband could write - just made their marks. Daphne Dashfield (nee Geradine) GHIRARDANI and 16 or so spelling variations from c.1850

Hi Maggie > Does anyone know what records might be available that would show occupations? Also does anyone know if there would be records of Italians born overseas? My grandfather had 3 or 4 sisters but I have no idea how to go about looking for them. > > Has anyone please got any ideas what I could do next? You don't say what sort of dates are involved - and that makes a difference. I believe that Italian military records show occupation. The example given in Trafford Cole's "Italian genealogical records.." (Ancestry Inc., 1975) does. They date from about 1873 for 18 year olds being drafted (this is too recent for my direct line). Again probably too recent for my family (arrived pre-unification), so I have no experience of it, but I believe that Italian marriages, births etc. abroad are supposed to be reported at the nearest Italian consulate. The information is then added to the family's records in the commune of origin. The records started at different times in different areas, with the latest starting in 1871. Probably best to consult Trafford Cole's book for a fuller explanation of what is available. 75 year access restriction apart from family members' certificate applications. I hope this is helpful. Daphne Dashfield (nee Geradine) GHIRARDANI and 16 spelling variations from pre 1851

I have been told there is a web site that shows the 'spread' of surnames in Italy. Does anyone know where it is? Maggie in Vancouver