Hi, It really isn't necessary to dig up the old bones but I guess you could. Just did a crash course on Ancestry.com on DNA. Sounds interesting. Take care, Judy Minihan

So, are we supposed to exhume the long dead in hopes of obtaining a DNA sample against which to compare ourselves? ----- Original Message ----- From: <JMINI22977@aol.com> To: <AMXROADS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 8:18 PM Subject: [AMXROADS] DNA OPINION > Hi everyone, > > DNA is something I have on my long list to study when I have time. I know it > is used to identify next of kin or a criminal. > > As everything in genealogy is trial and error it can't hurt to try to use DNA > to identify descendants. As time goes by it will either prove or disprove > the theories. > > My two cents. > Take care, > Judy Minihan > > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >

Hi everyone, DNA is something I have on my long list to study when I have time. I know it is used to identify next of kin or a criminal. As everything in genealogy is trial and error it can't hurt to try to use DNA to identify descendants. As time goes by it will either prove or disprove the theories. My two cents. Take care, Judy Minihan

Dear Jim and Cousins, If people want answers to specific questions like am I the descendent of George Washington (bad choice for an example since he was the father of the country, not of any children,) then yes, I suppose so, to your question of exhuming our ancients. Because those DNA answers otherwise will not be there. But suppose you don't know much about your ancestry, you've always heard your principal ancestors were Swedish, but you'd like to know more, then you can find answers because known markers are present for Swedes, Russians, Hungarians, etc. Don't be outraged because people are willing to dig up ancestors. They routinely have done it to Native Americans for years and hung them up on shelves at the Smithsonian! Or lesser honored repositories called your local museums. Daniel Boone was dug up from where he died in Missouri and returned to Kentucky, and relatives of Merriwether Lewis want to dig him up to find out whether he actually killed himself or whether he was done in by others. The whole idea of DNA rests with what you want to find, and whether the simple comparisons among living relatives provide that. The problem I find is that people are given to believe that they will be able to tell what lineage they belong to from these kinds of tests which are being promoted, and they will still not know the answer to that. No, Jim, I can't imagine someone would want the ancient ancestors dug up for DNA purposes. You can see how dense I am. I hadn't thought of such a thing. Only that people were getting ripped off in the present tests. I know our Anniversary celebrator Dick Matteson had the testing and thought it was terrific, but he wasn't looking for specific lineage information. I'm not sure he's back from his anniversary party yet. Love, Your Cousin, Carolyn Love, your cousin, Carolyn

Hello everyone, I'm finding the DNA discussion to be very interesting but would like to hear opinions pro and con from other listmembers. If anyone is quietly thinking to themselves, "Well I think this DNA thing is..." I'd like to hear your opinion. Just remember that we all have different opinions so there may be differences of opinion. Uh, so to speak. I hope Carolyn doesn't mind my asking for additional input and participation this way. Heading out for dinner with my husband ( a rare occasion). TTYL. Barb T

Dear Cousins, One of the greatest joys of genealogy is finding cousins and getting to reconnect and know one another. Sometimes you only get to know these cousins in the heart to heart way, which is how I had known my Cousin Ric Blake for many years until January when I was able to meet him, his wife Diane and their cat, Annie McSmudge in the face to face way during my trip east for the GenTech 2002 convention in Boston. (Also got to meet Cousin Isabel and her husband Dick in Maine, and our Cousin John O., in Maryland.) I have received a wonderful message from Ric this morning, and like most of his messages, it brought smiles and tears. For almost all the time I have known and loved Ric he has been battling thyroid cancer. Ric is the kind of person who lights candles rather than cursing the darkness, and makes lemonade from lemons, and so he founded THYCA, a support group for Thyroid Cancer survivors and families. Love, Your Cousin, Carolyn From: RBlake2675@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 11:47:17 EDT Subject: Ric's Talks at the June 15 Relay for Life Hi Folks, I've been asked by some folks for a copy of the comments I made at the American Cancer Society's Relay for Life, June 14-15, 2002. For those who were with us and asked, here is a copy of what I said. For those who couldn't join us, maybe this will help make you feel you were with us for a terrific event - even the rain held off until after midnight. The best part of the evening was seeing eight thyroid cancer survivors walking the Survivors' Lap wearing ThyCa signs. For once, we were visible. :)r ______________________________________________________ Ric Blake's Comments at the OPENING CEREMONY of the Greater Lawrence (Massachusetts) Relay for Life, 6:00 p.m., June 14, 2002 ______________________________________________________ We are here to support a great mission, which is to create a future in which cancer will be unknown. We are also here to support the goals of the American Cancer Society, which has worked toward a cancer-free future since 1913. We are survivors who have watched our futures change as cancer changed our lives. We are caregivers who have watched helplessly as those we love most battle for their lives. We are medical professionals who fight against overwhelming obstacles. We are volunteers who support our friends, neighbors and colleagues. Survivor, caregiver, volunteer, researcher or healer, we are optimists who believe a few people can change the world. We believe that coming together on a day in June can save lives and that our effort will make a difference. Look at the faces around you. Many of us are here today because there were those in the past who also believed they could make a difference. And they did. Their research discovered better ways to detect and treat cancer. Their volunteer work raised money and resources to support that research. Their individual and personal battles with cancer continue to inspire and to teach us how to live our lives. We are here to change the future and to remember the past. As a cancer survivor and a caregiver and a volunteer, I am deeply honored to walk with you in Greater Lawrence's 2nd Relay for Life. Lawrence has been important to me because my two favorite jobs were here. Part of my heart will always remain here because my wife's family, the Zanfagnas, came to Lawrence from Italy 90 years ago, and without my wife's support, I wouldn't be able to be here tonight. From my heart, I thank you. ______________________________________________________ Ric's Talk at the SURVIVORS' RECEPTION, 7:30 p.m., June 14, 2002 Three Things I've Learned Since My Diagnosis #1. My Life Is Worth More Than My Kitchen If I were going to spend $10,000 to renovate our kitchen, I'd get a written estimate. If I were going to spend a few thousand dollars to repair my car, I'd get a written estimate. Why wouldn't I spend as much energy and time when it comes to my life? As an advocate for my own healthcare, I've learned to: get everything in writing keep copies of everything I get in writing ask for a treatment plan get a second opinion research options The first thing I learned was that my life is worth enough to find the best care available. #2. I've Learned to Garden in the shade. Stay out of the sun during EBR and chemo last summer. No more gardening? No, but I had to learn to garden differently, which meant to Follow the shade... and to Garden by the square yard. The second thing I learned was that I didn't have to give up my life, I just had to live it flexibly to the beat of a slower drummer. #3. My cat is my role model. I learned to live at a slower pace by watching our cat, Annie McSmudge, who will be 20 years old in August. Consider Annie's schedule: Wake up late. Stretch Eat. Drink. Pee Wash up Check the house for dogs Find a warm lap Snuggle Nap Wash up for lunch Eat Drink Pee Wash up Watch the birds Nap Wash up for dinner Eat Drink Pee Find a warm lap. Snuggle Go to bed early. The most important thing I've learned is to enjoy the moment.

Hi Barb, Beej, Tom, Jim and Cousins, I don't know about the Rev. J. J. Watts. He might be a more distant relative, not in my direct line, but most of the Watts were very religiously inclined. I know there were some Watts ministers who went into the Carolinas from our branch. Some were in Iredell County NC whom I believe were part of ours, and some in SC as well. Charles Brunk Heinemann investigated these families in "Watts Families of the Southern States," and included ours as Family 12, but never linked them to the main body of his research. The Watts, like almost all of my families were in the heart of the backcountry. I believe they may have started in Virginia, but may have mirrored those other backcountry travellers who went up the Chesapeake Bay into the Philadelphia Perimeter and then returned to Virginia in the Potomac area, and then on down into SW Virginia. Heinemann included in our research, a letter written by the Rev. Henry Newton Watts, who was a brother of my gg-grandfather Alfred L. Watts (have never found what the "L." stood for) which gave details of the family but they were vague about the beginnings. I think they may have been in Orange County, Virginia where a John Watts is on the Orange County Tithe Lists taken by Anthony Strother, whom I believe is a part of my elusive backcountry Smith family, which in turn is connected to the Watts family while they were in Missouri and then out here in Oregon. Another interesting almost-connection is with the half-Cherokee Chief John Watts who led a party of Creeks and Shawnees against the settlers of Buchanan Station near presentday Nashville, TN. Legends of John Watts are all around, but I first found the account in "Tennessee Bible Records," which had the story along with information on the Buchanan family. You can find references to Chief John Watts in Pat Alderman's fine regional work "The Over the Mountain Men," and in Ramsay's "Annals of Tennessee." One online site is http://www.nativenashville.com/History/buchanan.htm There is circumstantial evidence of Chief John Watts's connection, or at least a Cherokee connection to our Watts family through the Ross family in Wayne County, KY who married one of my Alfred's sisters there. Chief John Ross was the principal chief of the Cherokee tribe for many years, and was Chief during the time of the removals. Several members of this branch of our family settled in Greene and Webster counties, MO after leaving Kentucky/Tennessee, and then I believe some of them also came to Oregon, as my family did. Rev. Henry Newton remained in Missouri and some of his descendants went to Texas, and I am happy to say, I have made reconnection with two cousins Watts and through my Watts connected Enos line. Another long time fellow searcher is doubly related through my Enos-Stanley/Standley line, who was very instrumental in our early research through her Van Winkle ancestor who married into our Watts family. The Van Winkles have been well researched in a huge genealogy by Daniel Van Winkle, and their ancestry is also very representative of the backcountry as portrayed through Dutch integration into the society. They also present a good opportunity for the influence of patronymics on family surnames, for their original name was Wallingen, then Walling. They became known as Van Winkle because they came from Winkle in the Netherlands. (I've also wondered if the Walling further deteriorated into Waller, because there are many Virginia backcountry connections with that surname as well.) You can find more on Van Winkles, Dutch patronymics, at the Olive Tree. http://olivetreegenealogy.com/index.shtml Van Winkle-Watts kinship has endured over a couple of hundred years and their alliance was what first gave form to my theories about the effects of a frontier subculture on the genealogy and history of America. The Watts, Markhams and Smiths are in SW Virginia on some of those excellent tax and census lists at the New River Valley Historical Notes. I have found a "Finwinkel" on one list which I can't place right now, and James Van Winkle is next to Micajah Pinition on the 1790 Wilkes County Census at NRVHN. Another of our cousins has an Abraham VanWinkle Coffey ancestor whom I believe fits in here somewhere. http://www.ls.net/~newriver/nc/1790wilk.htm There is a Rd. (Richard) Watts along with a John Watts and so many allied, kinship and family names from both my maternal and paternal lines on that 1790 Wilkes County census, it is a mystery to me how somebody would ever sort out the significance of the DNA. And yes, some of the James Family. I am going to have to do an analysis of all of those names for the website. It is really amazing. Now Tom, I'm interested in whether the Bigelow person then was the "Mr. Howard," according to the song, shot by "the dirty little coward?" Howard was supposed to have been the alias Jesse James used when he was killed. We have a lot of Howards on the frontier, connected to the other backcountry families as well. And Jim, you rascal, are you implying you've stopped short of the James Boys! For shame. They were the Robin Hoods of Missouri, not horse thieves! Love, Your Cousin, Carolyn

My Dad, who got me started on my genealogy obsession always said, "When you get to the horse thief, stop." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carolyn McDaniel" <cmacdee@centurytel.net> To: <AMXROADS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 2:19 AM Subject: [AMXROADS] DNA and what it can mean to research > Dear Tom and Cousins, > My goodness, what esoteric knowledge comes out of this list. How > interesting about Jesse James. And what interesting applications of > DNA. If it was Jesse not Billy the Kid, I should add that the McDaniel > who rode with the James Boys was not one of my ancestors. As far as I know > without DNA testing! The James family lived near my Watts family in > Missouri, and I seem to remember finding one of them on the census as I was > looking it over. It's fun and funny to find the famous and infamous > alongside our ancestors. > > Love, Your Cousin, Carolyn > > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >

Dear Beej: Is it possible that you are referring to Jesse James, rather than Billy the Kid? Billy was buried, at least his Grave Marker says, in New Mexico. Jessie was supposedly buried in Missouri in 1882. His corpse, or a corpse, was exhumed in, I believe, 1996 and DNA tests were performed and the results compared to someone who was supposed to be Jesse's greatgrand daughter. However there are a group of James descendants who say Robert Biglow was killed instead of Jesse, since Biglow had assumed Jesses identity in 1877. Further that Mrs. Robert Biglow continue to use the assumed identity, as the widow of Jesse, and that her children lived the rest of their lives as members of the James family. The group of James researchers headed by Bud Hardcastle of Purcell, Ok. say they have proof that Jesse lived from 1882 as J. Frank Dalton, until he died at the age of 104, where he was buried as Jesse Woodson James in Granbury, Texas. Statements were made upon release of the DNA tests in 1996, as you stated, that a Female descendant had to be found for DNA comparisons. I'm not sure that the Jesse controversy will ever be resolved, because when the County Judge approved a Court Order, in 2000, to exhume the Jesse James buried in Grandbury,Tx. a one armed corpse by the name of Holland, buried in 1929, was dug up in error. Now the currect Judge will not issue another Court Order, because of the bad publicity brought to the town and county. I said all the above to say this: DNA tests now being pursued by a Sir Named Group could be valueless, as Carolyn says, if we depend only on Sir Names without proven genealogy. Cousin Tom

Hello Pigtails. You of course recognize this person...the 'other' pigtails. haha. Just on here late so thought I'd say hi. Guess we're too old to know when to turn in? yep. Hope all's well with you. What about that subscription thing you talked about that I said I would take? Newsletter or something??? Let me know. Any new info on the tearing down of our school? Lord knows we tried to destroy it in the fifth thru eighth grades...and if it withstood "that class of '59" it should warrant protection under the endangered species act! (; Night night old buddy and prankster. ----- Original Message ----- From: Carolyn McDaniel Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 11:25 PM To: AMXROADS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [AMXROADS] DNA and what it can mean to research Dear Tom and Cousins, My goodness, what esoteric knowledge comes out of this list. How interesting about Jesse James. And what interesting applications of DNA. If it was Jesse not Billy the Kid, I should add that the McDaniel who rode with the James Boys was not one of my ancestors. As far as I know without DNA testing! The James family lived near my Watts family in Missouri, and I seem to remember finding one of them on the census as I was looking it over. It's fun and funny to find the famous and infamous alongside our ancestors. Love, Your Cousin, Carolyn ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

Dear Tom and Cousins, My goodness, what esoteric knowledge comes out of this list. How interesting about Jesse James. And what interesting applications of DNA. If it was Jesse not Billy the Kid, I should add that the McDaniel who rode with the James Boys was not one of my ancestors. As far as I know without DNA testing! The James family lived near my Watts family in Missouri, and I seem to remember finding one of them on the census as I was looking it over. It's fun and funny to find the famous and infamous alongside our ancestors. Love, Your Cousin, Carolyn

Hi Carolyn, Is the Rev. J.J.Watts one of your ancestors? He was brother in law to William Woolsey of Pulaski Co.KY. Rev. Watts lived in MO and wrote the Journal of the people he married, buried, etc. It's on microfilm at the Univ. of Missouri at Rolla. Barb T

Dear Beej and Jim, and Cousins, Thanks for your additional comments, and also for your previous comments as well on the DNA subject. I wish I could watch the history channel, but I'm too poor to subscribe to TV here. Instead, spend all my time online and my money on books and computer stuff! Beej, I have a Burton file to send you which includes a couple of marriage records, some census information and some of the Kentucky land grants information that I copied at Ancestry.com before they started making it so difficult to copy their information. The information is basic, but may bring a different slant on your search. I'm pretty sure your Burtons followed the same paths out of SW Virginia into Kentucky in ways that mirror many of the other list members' ancestors migrations. My Watts and Markham-Marcum families moved into Wayne County, KY, and moved back and forth across the Kentucky-Tennessee border before moving to Illinois and then Missouri. There are indications from the names of people around your George Burton on the Jefferson County census suggesting that the SW Virginia/NW North Carolina locale is probably correct. I still mean to put this up on a page at the website so that people can see the need for accurate census interpretation is very great. Many of the names are misinterepreted, and one nearby your George is a Robert Livington which I think could be Pennington. I have more work to do to put it at the website, but I want you to have this information before your trip. Love, Your Cousin, Carolyn

This is the difference between Mitochondrial DNA and Nuclear DNA. The Mitochondrial DNA is passed from mothers to ALL her offspring. But men can't pass that on, so it passes down the maternal line, mother to daughter. ----- Original Message ----- From: <PasaPeruva@aol.com> To: <AMXROADS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 5:45 PM Subject: [AMXROADS] Re: DNA and what it can mean to research > In a message dated 6/15/02 4:00:23 AM US Mountain Standard Time, > AMXROADS-D-request@rootsweb.com writes: > > << Men have > both maternal and paternal markers, while women have only maternal. >> > > Carolyn: Recently History Channel had a program on Billy the Kid and > getting permission from those family members that need to give it on testing > the body parts that was buried in MO. They exhumed the remains that was > buried at his home place in MO and during the program they said several times > that the DNA that men carry is not passed on however the DNA of woman is > passed on from female to female of the line. This statement I have never > heard before. I do hope that I heard it correctly and if not straighten me > out. I am going to look for this program and purchase it and watch it again > and again as it was interesting in the way they did the anilizing of the body > remains that was available. > The male members of families have the female DNA but do not pass it on to > other males of the family. They did prove that the remains at the home place > in MO was a direct relitive of Billy the Kids mother but not that it was > Billy's remains that was found. Programs end stated they would go to TX > where another grave if professed to be that of Billy the Kid and see if they > can get permission to open that grave. > I also feel the need to read more on this as I was convensed that I would > have it done > but not sure now. Thank you so much for the added info in your post on this > subject. > > In about 10 days I am going to travel to IN for family reunion and gen > research so I will unsub from the list at that time till I return. I will > surely miss all the useful info that you send out. I have been contacted by > a new cousin just the other day. His ancestor is a brother to my connection > with George Burton of Jefferson Co., IN. > I have a couple of leads but no real connection as yet. > > I will look forward to reading what others have to say on this subject. > > Beej > > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >

In a message dated 6/15/02 4:00:23 AM US Mountain Standard Time, AMXROADS-D-request@rootsweb.com writes: << Men have both maternal and paternal markers, while women have only maternal. >> Carolyn: Recently History Channel had a program on Billy the Kid and getting permission from those family members that need to give it on testing the body parts that was buried in MO. They exhumed the remains that was buried at his home place in MO and during the program they said several times that the DNA that men carry is not passed on however the DNA of woman is passed on from female to female of the line. This statement I have never heard before. I do hope that I heard it correctly and if not straighten me out. I am going to look for this program and purchase it and watch it again and again as it was interesting in the way they did the anilizing of the body remains that was available. The male members of families have the female DNA but do not pass it on to other males of the family. They did prove that the remains at the home place in MO was a direct relitive of Billy the Kids mother but not that it was Billy's remains that was found. Programs end stated they would go to TX where another grave if professed to be that of Billy the Kid and see if they can get permission to open that grave. I also feel the need to read more on this as I was convensed that I would have it done but not sure now. Thank you so much for the added info in your post on this subject. In about 10 days I am going to travel to IN for family reunion and gen research so I will unsub from the list at that time till I return. I will surely miss all the useful info that you send out. I have been contacted by a new cousin just the other day. His ancestor is a brother to my connection with George Burton of Jefferson Co., IN. I have a couple of leads but no real connection as yet. I will look forward to reading what others have to say on this subject. Beej

Dear Barb, and Cousins on the List, First, thanks Barb for your always thoughtful and considered responses about DNA. In answer to your question, DNA does not not have to be specifically compared one on one, but if a variety of known (or suspected) members of a direct line are compared then it can be determined whether they indeed come from a common ancestor. Their "markers" to that ancestor will be the same. Once these markers are established, comparisons can be made by others who possibly were not felt to be of the same direct line, but if the same markers exist, then it can thereby be determined that they are part of the initial group. The important genealogical part comes within determining the correct people to test in order to establish a lineage pattern. In the case of many surname groups, particularly since the onset of computer genealogy, people have been ascribed willy-nilly to certain lineages without proper genealogical proof. I made a recent "test" at Rootsweb's World Connect, using Henry Pennington, the most ancient Maryland Pennington immigrant I knew to be heavily "researched." I believe either this Henry or William Pennington the Puritan could be my ancestor -- there are some quirks in my ongoing research which suggest they may have come from the same family origin in England. At any rate, I got 29 "hits" for Henry, and not one of the 29 had correct information for Henry's wife, his children, or his grandchildren. Most of these 29 lineages showed descendency from Abraham Pennington, the Indian Trader, and yet there has never been one shred of evidence to suggest Henry as the answer for Abraham's paternity. Indeed, every thing known about Henry suggests he was NOT Abraham's father! So when a tribe starts DNA testing, and even if they have a bunch of people who may descend from Abraham, they will not prove a descent from Henry, but at best, from some yet undetermined ancestor. I think the mixed results of DNA testing for any of these will be very disappointing for most testees. However, what could be determined would be that some who have only suspected their descent from Abraham would now be able to establish it. And some families who have thought they shared a common ancestor will find they do not. But, it takes a number of comparisons just to determine these very limited things. At the very best it tells if someone is on the right track or not. The article in the Genealogical Helper "DNA Testing Dispels a Genealogical Myth" http://www.everton.com/learn/showcontent.php?id=2051 was very illuminating because it focused on an unusually rare surname Smolenyak, which came from an unusually small locale, a tiny town in the Ukraine, Osturna, Slovakia. The researchers had narrowed their possible ancestors to four households in the village. It could well be assumed with such limited conditions that each of these four households held a common ancestry, but it was found with DNA testing that not one was connected to the other through the common paternal ancestor. The question becomes, WHY? And what are the implications for American researchers? I think the answer lies in the genealogical failure to establish identity rather than researching a surname. I started to say surnames only tell half the story, but actually they don't even tell an accurate half-story. Given the misspellings, erroneous transcriptions, and the distorted picture produced by patronymics it is extremely difficult to produce accurate surname identity for our peripatetic backcountry people. My own Pennington family came out of a nest of Pembertons. So which came first from that nest, the chicken or the egg? My earliest proven ancestor was John Pennington who served in the War of 1812, enlisting in Baltimore County, Maryland and subsequent to that, moving to the area of Belmont and Guernsey Counties, Ohio. Given names in the Pennington families found in the same area with him are Richard, Otho, Jesse, William and Allen. The given names John, Richard, Otho and William all indicate connection to the above Henry Pennington the immigrant of St. Mary's and Cecil County Maryland -- IF the research has correctly ascribed Richard the father of Otho and William, to the Richard who was the son of Henry's son Henry. I believe using some of the theories I've developed increases the positive research outcomes. I have focused on the history and kinship within each locality. For my 1812 John Pennington, I have minutely examined the other members of the units he served in during the War of 1812. (He served with Jesse Pennington in one, and I believe Jesse was his brother.) I've also examined land records, probate records, census records, etc. for each locality where I've found him. The problem is that I don't know where he (and his family and kin are for many years that are needed to prove his identity.) So I have to operate on theory in some cases and try and prove identity for those around him as well. It's a long process. The old saw about paternity testing was that blood tests did not determine who a father was, only who was NOT the father, and in many ways that same basic principle holds true for DNA testing. DNA tests can establish a set of markers for a lineage if several descendants are available for testing and comparison. BUT, if they do not match, there is no way of knowing what the proper lineage would be. That is why large samples are needed so that wide results can be compared and matches determined. With the expense of the individual tests, I don't see how present surname-group projects are going to succeed -- given the limited interpretations possible. It seems a very small return for the cost involved. On the other hand, I keep coming across some very positive genealogical research projects. There is now a complete set of Ashe county North Carolina census transcriptions available at the US GenWeb. Ashe county was formed in 1799, and the portion of Wilkes County that became Ashe is available on the first federal census for 1790 in Wilkes County. Thereafter, through 1920 the Ashe censuses are now available online. This presents is the opportunity and the basis for a really good genealogical study, comparing the census information and other available documents, not just for one surname, but for the kith and kin. http://www.rootsweb.com/~cenfiles/nc.htm Another very worthy project which I've been examining are the e-texts available for Ohio Histories online at Heritage Pursuit. http://www.heritagepursuit.com/ Among a ton of others is a connection of my Quaker Smart family descendants (Williams, Pennington, Tucker, Van Horn, Thompson, Wade) with Andrew Donaldson in Richland County, OH. I have never followed up on this Donaldson connection with the more southern ones connected to your family, Barb, and hope this may prove an impetus to some additional fact-finding. This Andrew Donaldson came from the West Virginia panhandle to Richland County, where some other Pennington families have also roosted before moving on. http://www.heritagepursuit.com/ Heritage Pursuit has a lot of information on Ohio descendants of the Opdyke/Updyke family, who were part of the 13 original Mennonite families to come to Pennsylvania from Krefeld, which lies along the Dutch border with Germany. Some of the Opdykes moved into Cecil County, MD. These Dutch/German settlers, led by Francis Daniel Pastorius, were the founders of Germantown, in Montgomery County, PA. Pastorius himself is a fascinating study, highly educated and brilliantly humane, he initiated the first protest of its kind against black slavery The first Philadelphia settlers lived in extremely primitive structures when they first arrived, some in caves along the Schuykill. Pastorius' cave was "half under and half above ground," at 502 South Front Street in Philadelphia. It was 15 "shoes" long and 15 wide. He put a little sign in the window in Latin: "Parva domus, sed amicus bonus. Procal este profani," which amused William Penn very much when he visited Pastorius and seems to have found there an equally unique person. Freely translated, the sign read: "A small house, but friendly to the good. Depart ye profane." Quite a wonderful sign and thought, and an indication of the character of Pastorius. Also interesting is the idea of so many diverse people coming together in the city of brotherly love. Many, including Pastorius could only communicate with others by using Latin, because they did not have a common understanding of one another's native languages. Within my own household the three of us share the same complications of communication, Tom and Bill of one native tongue (theirs particularly sandpapery and rough, but nonetheless effectively applied by them,) and I of another. We have some universal signs and tones in common, but a common language continues to elude us. They do not seem inclined to learn Latin, and I'm not going to either. I have found rewards work, threats do not. Opening a can of tuna is immediately understood, while, "If you don't stop scratching this sofa I'm going to rip off your fur and fry you for supper," never seems to impress them. I found PicoSearch to be quite an effective search tool at Heritage Pursuit and have installed it at American Crossroads' home page, and will be adding it to the other pages as I continue reorganizing and re-formatting the pages. I've tried several other searches, and have not been happy with them, so I'm hoping this one may be a good answer. Let me know what you think. Love, Your Cousin, Carolyn

Hi Carolyn and listmembers, I agree wholeheartedly with the views you expressed re: DNA testing and genealogy. I think it bears promise but if I understand it correctly, it's value is only as good as the gen research that supports it. That leads me back to the drum I'm always banging, we need to improve gen standards, or rather learn to use the excellent standards provided by prominent gen societies. I had some good teachers and I am so grateful for what they taught me. So, if we decide to use DNA testing to help in our search, we must make sure we are using gen info collected with the highest standards of research. Or else, why spend the money? We could make up a nice story for a whole lot less cost. I need to verify from those who know, DNA is taken from one person and then compared to a person of a line that has been "proven" by gen research. Is this correct? Thanks for your comments, Carolyn Barb T

Dear Cousins, I recently voiced some concerns about the manner in which DNA testing is being touted and perceived by members of surname groups. I wondered if indeed the testing can provide the answers that some groups are suggesting. I was also worried that DNA testing was being perceived as a new-tech alternative to traditional genealogical investigation and research. Based on your comments, I realized I needed to know more about the subject. At Everton's "Genealogical Helper" http://www.everton.com/ I found two excellent articles DNA Testing Dispels a Genealogical Myth Did You Attach Your Ancestors to the Wrong Tree Root? Each of these holds good answers for the concerns above. Also, there were excellent additional pages suggested on the internet. An almost overwhelmingly complete site is Chris Pomeroy's DNA Portal http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~allpoms/genetics.html which in turn put me on to Mark Jobling's 'In the name of the father: surnames and genetics' Ancestry.com makes straightforward statements about DNA testing that I found refreshing: Prove or disprove specific relationships with living people; Break through previous brick-walls in your research;Find ethnic & geographic clues to help your search; Group surname reconstruction; Database & pedigree matches. Ancestry's tests cost $219 for Paternal, $239 for Maternal and $219 for Native American. Other costs I checked ranged about the same: between $200 and $300 each. Men have both maternal and paternal markers, while women have only maternal. On Ancestry's main page on genetics http://www.ancestry.com/genetics/main.htm there is a clickable page reached which describes in lay terms what you can learn and what you can't. The most important is that you cannot determine any information other than the direct line of your mother (for women,) and/or father (for men). They have a great chart that shows exactly what this means to you. Another important consideration is that unless you have significant numbers of persons for comparison you will not learn much of significant genealogical implication. And if your surname organization has not correctly established the direct lines of the surname, you will likely be dismayed by the results. Even if you find you are indeed related to your first cousin, is it worth $200-$300 to prove it with DNA? The best use of this kind of testing seems to be for the person trying to establish identity, such as an adoptee, seeking to find a genetic imprint where none is known. The testing is interesting, and is a promising tool, but it seems to me the bottom line is that it is best utilized in conjunction with sound genealogical techniques rather than as an alternative to traditional methodology. Love, Your Cousin, Carolyn

Dear Cousins, As you know, American Crossroads is a part of Rootsweb in that both the website and the discussion list are hosted by Rootsweb. I highly recommend their e-mail newsletter, Rootsweb Review, ably edited by Myra Vanderpool Gormley, a longtime genealogical idol of mine. The first contribution of today's newsletter included a letter, "Links to the Past Touch the Present," which beautifully captures the concept and atmosphere of a virtual community, which I have hoped to foster at American Crossroads. I want to share this letter with you, and hope it is not redundant, if you already receive the newsletter. Recently I have been getting re-acquainted with several childhood friends via e-mail, and it has brought such delight to me. And through this list itself and others like it I have gained new cousins who are as familiar and comforting as the friends and relatives I've loved since childhood. Connection and re-connection with a like-minded community is a vital thing in our distracted and often emotionally isolated lives. The other Rootsweb news is the Swedish Census, which I am sure will be of interest to many of you. Summer has arrived here in Eastern Oregon with a vengeance. We were freezing last week and now we resemble fried taco shells! Love, Your Cousin, Carolyn From Rootsweb Review: "2b. SWEDISH CENSUS RECORDS. Thanks to work by Dick Östlind for Arkion, a unit within the National Archives of Sweden, which is a project-based unit that produces databases within various areas, such as industrial history and local history projects, you can now search through more than 4.5 million records (136,222 distinct surnames) from selected Swedish counties and parishes of the 1890 Swedish census (excluding City of Stockholm). In addition to the search instructions in English, they are also in Swedish -- thanks to Östlind: http://userdb.rootsweb.com/sweden/ "The Swedish censuses of the past are similar to directories, where you can find people -- not in alphabetical order -- but by place of residence. Since 1749 population censuses have been taken in Sweden, and they often were the extracts from the household examination rolls made by the Swedish state church. Swedes were registered in their home parishes with name, year of birth, parish of birth, gender, occupation, and marital status. "Arkion's (http://www.arkion.se) 1890/1900 census archives contain the following information: Persons in the household; information about each person's home parish, residence, county, year of birth, place of birth, occupation, Titel [sic], marital status, gender, family status, and other details. Unfortunately children (in 90 percent of the cases) were not given a last name [surname] by the preachers in 1890 census books. Therefore it is not possible to say what surname they took later in life because they often took the surname from their father's Christian (given) name, who often had several of them. So, what surname did they take? It is impossible to know until you check the 1900 Sweden census. Is it to be presumed that the surname is the same as their father's? The answer is no -- in most cases. "It is assumed that researchers will know at least the Christian (given) name, and when they see the birth year and county they can figure out that this could be the person they want to know more about. They can write to find more information in Sweden's other records. http://www.ra.se/indexengelska.html "This particular user-contributed 1890 census database does not require that a surname be entered for searches. "First name only" searches are possible, due to the circumstances mentioned above. http://userdb.rootsweb.com/sweden/ "For more on the patronymic surname problems of Swedish research see this posting in the SWEDEN-L (mailing list) Archives: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/SWEDEN/2001-10/1002121428 See also: RootsWeb's Guide to Tracing Family Trees: Scandinavian Roots: http://rwguide.rootsweb.com/lesson23.htm#Swedish "Links to the Past Touch the Present "By Rancher rancher@gci.net http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hero/navylink.html "As the Internet becomes more of our everyday world at times you send or receive an e-mail that changes you. I met Bob this way when I was researching my great-grandfather, Walter TOY. Walter had been a member of an elite group of men known to have been at one time a "Ganges boy." "I knew very little about it until the Ganges Association of England so kindly put a Web page up for the entire world to see. Within it they allowed Bob to express in his words what many of us wanted to know -- what was it like on the HMS Ganges? "Bob's research and attention to detail enthralled me and I corresponded with him wanting to know so much more, but not wanting to overtax or bother this author. He kindly informed of things so familiar to him and so foreign to me. I being 400 miles and more from any ocean on all sides of me had much to learn about the Royal Navy and life at sea. The people behind the "@some-place-in-the-world" addresses have the same world in many ways as you do: Family, jobs, responsibilities, pressures of daily life -- all a part of their 24-hour days. In some cases you can have a working relationship with a person and never have a picture of them or hear them speak. In time though you "know" them. After a few e-mails back and forth it became more and more of a pleasure to see a letter from him in the e-mail. We sorted out many things about the ships Walter TOY had been on. We learned more about which ships were where during the pre-1900s. As time went by I met his family through e-mail and he met mine. "One particular day opening an e-mail from Bob brought shock and sadness. A quick and fast illness of his wife had taken her away. The pain and sadness was equal to any other friend I could run to and help support. A friend comforted me with, "And as surely as we must find a way to come to closure and acceptance of those who are physically in our world, we must do the same in regard to those who enter our world by this medium [e-mail]. In the midst of sadness and pain, the route to peace is to find the meaning in what you knew of the life of that person." I really haven't lost my friend because I knew her and I know Bob. He has still found ways to encourage people. His efforts to make a person feel better through words of appreciation or just plain words are still coming forth through e-mail. At times I know his sadness over the loss can be almost unbearable. "Random acts of kindness can bring rewards unknown. Connect through RootsWeb today. You never know, you might brighten someone's day or life."

Burton-long hunters You going to route these men thru Castle Woods in Russell Co,sw Va?