Sorry, this is the posting I meant to show, from 2005 http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/AMREV-HESSIANS/2005-09/1128011151 From: "john" < [email protected]> Subject: Re: [HESSIAN] John Shallow - Northampton MA Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 12:25:51 -0400 References: <[email protected]> Hello Jim, and helle Hessian researchers; It is so much fun to read those colourful articles of the past, and although they cannot be taken as the "gospel's truth, most have some good leads. Everybody knows that the German military did not take any soldiers under five feet, this John SHALLOW was surely no exception. The name of course puzzles me, it is probably the anglicized version of SCHELLE, and he was with Col. Baum's force, which means he was captured at the Battle of Bennington in August 1777. Involved were the Brunswick Dragoon Regiment under Baum, and one or two cannons of the Hesse-Hanau artillery. Later on the Breymann's Corps was involved in the battle after the Baum forces were already defeated. And while I am at it, you are looking for your ancestor Peter Rhine Hart, why not look for Peter REINHART, or REINHARD, that's a common name in Germany. Good luck, John Helmut Merz. (much handicapped without my files) ----- Original Message ----- From: < [email protected]> To: < [email protected]> Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 9:37 AM Subject: [HESSIAN] John Shallow - Northampton MA > I found this article in the Hampshire Gazette (Northampton, Hampshire County MA) and thought it might help someone in their research. > > Tuesday July 31 1855 > Familiar Sketches of the Connecticut Valley > Northampton 50 years ago > ... Among the recollections of childhood, the gingerbread seller must not be > forgotten. The baker was a Mr. Blackman, who made the best possible > gingerbread, past, present or future. But the dealings of the child were not with the > baker who sold at wholesale, by the whole 'card', so much as with the man who > retailed it at a copper per 'Roll'. His name was John Shallow. He was one of the > "Institutions" of the town. He was, I believe, an Hessian by birth, captured > with Baum's Force, who floated off from his fellows, and was left behind. His > age was uncertain, but between fifty and one hundred, his height nearly five > feet, wiht a full compensation in thickness and specific density, for any > deficiency in length. <SNIP> > Jim Carroll > PS Still searching for the origins of Peter Rhine Hart who settled and died > in Colrain MA. >
This sounded familiar, so I checked on google for a Hessian named Peter Rheinhart, and it brought up the posting below. Bill Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: Nelda Percival Date: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 6:39 pm Subject: Re: [AMREV-HESSIANS] Peter Rine Hart To: [email protected], [email protected] > > Hi Everybody, > Can anyone help her? > email and address included respond to her off list...she isn't a > member..n.JoAnn Sending your email to the American Hessian > mailinglist at rootsweb.com. I am not a researcher. There are > people there (old timers) almost as good as John Merz.. > > Nelda > > > > > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Peter Rine Hart > Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 18:23:08 -0400 > > > > > > Hi Nelda; > I am trying to help Peter Flynn find out more about his Hessian > soldier--Peter Rine Hart--who was with my Hessian ancestor-- > Georg Zacharias Hattstätt --after the war when they worked > together at a pottery works in Petersham, Mass. Both of us > have been through many of the things wherein a Hessians name > might be listed only to discover---no Rine Hart there. All we > do know for sure is that Peter Rine Hart was in the Rutland, > Mass Barracks for a time with Georg and that neither one of them > was sent to Virginia when the other troops were moved there. > Georg had signed a petition to be released and most likely had > taken the oath of allegiance by that time as he was married to > Beulah Martin--but we have no records for Rine Hart. Peter and > I need to KNOW where Rine Hart came from and what unit he may > have been a part of in this war. IE: was he taken with Georg on > the brig Favorite or was he with Burgoyne's Hessians??? and why > are there so few records of the men held in the Rutland > barracks.??? Also, it was said that Johannes Helmut Merz was > the foremost person on Hessians and I would like to KNOW if he > ever came up with muster roll lists for the Ansbach Bayreuth > Jaeger corps in Germany that must have been made there before > the men were put on the transports and if they might contain the > names of Hattstätt or Rine Hart on those lists??? I know that > you may not do research but based on what we have uncovered thus > far, might you suggest other places where we might find some > answers to these questions? We NEED to know the answers. > Thank you for your consideration. > Sincerely; > Jo Ann Hatstat > [email protected] > > > PLEASE CHECK ALL OF YOUR SUBJECTS! > ~~~~~~~~~ > FOUNDER: John H. Merz 1924-2006 Created 1998 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ > http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ADMINISTRATOR [email protected] > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AMREV- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/AMREV-HESSIANS/2003-01/1042464827 AMREV-HESSIANS-L Archives Archiver > AMREV-HESSIANS > 2003-01 > 1042464827 From: [email protected] Subject: [HESSIAN] Peter Rhine Hart, Colrain MA Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 08:33:47 EST Peter Rhine Hart, according to a chapter in Genealogical History of Samuell Hartt by James Hart 1903, "was a soldier in the English army, of Dutch or German nationality, and came in General Burgoyne's brigade, War of the Revolution, and settled in Colerain, Mass., soon after. He married Miss Polly Gross. Peter Rine Hart's family were poor." Peter lived in other Massachusetts towns before settling in Colrain. His marriage intention was filed in Greenwich in 1783, in 1790 his family was living in Petersham, in 1800 in Sutton, they also apparently lived in Oakham. In 1810 the family was living in Colrain, where Peter died July 5 1830, about 80 yrs old. According to the History of Petersham by Mabel Cook Coolidge 1948, in a chapter on Foreign Elements, page 301, "When the Revolutionary War was over two of the Hessians who had been quartered in the barracks at West Rutland, Peter Hart and George Hatstatt, came to Petersham and engaged in the pottery business on the estate of John Chandler. Peter Hart, is recorded in the 1790 census as the head of a family of six" George Hatstatt's ancestry has been established in an article in the Journal of the Johannes Schwalm Historical Association, 1985 pages 37-45. His surname was shortened to Hart. The 1800 census lists him as Peter R. Hart, the 1810 census as P.H. Rhine. Any suggestions on his origins would be greatly appreciated. Jim Carroll ************************************************************************http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/AMREV-HESSIANS/2003-01/1042480538 AMREV-HESSIANS-L Archives Archiver > AMREV-HESSIANS > 2003-01 > 1042480538 From: "Michael Kasler" < [email protected]> Subject: Re: [HESSIAN] Peter Rhine Hart, Colrain MA Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 12:55:49 -0500 References: <[email protected]> Hello John & List: Anytime that I read a posting that even mentions the Rutland POW camp, my ears perk up, as my ancestor Johannes Michael Kastler was there after being wounded at Bennington. This soldier Peter RHEINHART is very intriguing because I cannot find any reference to him in any of my sources. Since most of the POW's kept at Rutland were either Bennington survivors or British soldiers, I would have expected to find him among the Brunswickers. I even went through every entry in the casualty section of Riedesel's Order Book looking for anything close to that name, but no luck. Other people have been researching this name before, as it is listed on the JSHA website (Johannes Schwalm Historical Association). The JSHA keeps all of their archives at the Franklin and Marshall College, and there are some research materials located there involving Peter Rheinhart/Hart. Jim Carroll might want to check out the following: Box 24, Folder #24 "Individual Genealogy Research Files" Archives and Special Collections Shadek-Fackenthal Library Franklin and Marshall College P.O. Box 3003 Lancaster, PA 17604-3003 email: [email protected] Jim might want to check out what they have, it might be worthwhile. Michael Kasler ****************************************************************************************************http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/AMREV-HESSIANS/2003-01/1042482379 AMREV-HESSIANS-L Archives Archiver > AMREV-HESSIANS > 2003-01 > 1042482379 From: "RC Brooks" < [email protected]> Subject: Re: [HESSIAN] Peter Rhine Hart, Colrain MA Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:26:19 -0500 References: <[email protected]> Jim -- A couple of comments: Peter Rhine Hart, according to a chapter in Genealogical History of Samuell Hartt by James Hart 1903, "was a soldier in the English army, of Dutch or German nationality, and came in General Burgoyne's brigade, War of the Revolution, and settled in Colerain, Mass., soon after. Exactly how you interpret the phrase: "was a soldier in the English army, of Dutch or German nationality, and came in General Burgoyne's brigade" will determine where best to look for information. Burgoyne's army which arrived in Quebec in late spring 1776 comprised both British Regiments and regiments of German auxliary troops frequently, and often erroneously, called "Hessians." The majority of the "Hessians" with Burgoyne were from Brunswick [Braunschweig] with a small number from Hesse-Hanau. Details of units involved can be found in a number of sources found in any large library. The British regiments frequently had foreign nationals in them. A couple of thousand recruits were hired in Germany by Colonel von Streither and supplied to British Regiments; however, I believe these men were recruited too late to end up in Burgoynes army. Any surviving muster rolls for these British regiments most likely would be found in the UK/PRO, in the War Office series, class 12 records [WO 12/xxx]. The records of the Hanauers are in the archives at Marburg and were extracted and published in HETRINA VI. The Brunswick records are more difficult to find but exist at the archives in Wolfenbüttel. One version of the casualty reports (killed, died, deserted) was extracted and published by Clifford Neal Smith and again by Claus Reuter. <clip> > According to the History of Petersham by Mabel Cook Coolidge 1948, in a > chapter on Foreign Elements, page 301, "When the Revolutionary War was over > two of the Hessians who had been quartered in the barracks at West Rutland, These barracks were in Rutland, Massachusetts, not at Rutland, Vermont, as many have been misled. The barracks were built at Continental expense and were operated by the Deputy Commissary General of Prisoners for New England. I do not know where any records re: the barracks are today; however, the most likely places to start would be with the Continental records at the Library of Congress or at the Massachusetts Archives. My impression is that the Rutland barracks were primarily used for POWs from British regiments. I know that some British POWs taken in the Spring of 1776 on ships captured in the Boston area ended up there. The fates of the soldiers in Burgoyne's army generally fall in three categories: (1) those who surrendered 17 October 1777 under the terms of the convention of surrender [called the "Convention Army"]; (2) those who were taken Prisoners of War (POWs) prior to the surrender of the Convention Army, and (3) those stationed to the rear of the main army who were able to successfully retreat back behind the lines to Canada. The distinction between the two groups (1) and (2) above is important because they were handled in different manners. The "detainees" of the Convention Army never were mixed with the POWs nor vice versa. To the best of my knowledge, the Convention Army detainees were never at the POW barracks at Rutland. The Convention Army was quartered in the old Continental Army barracks (bulit in 1775) atop Prospect and Winter Hills, then both located in Cambridge, Massachusetts. The British detainees were on one hill and the German detainees on the other hill. Then in November 1778, in six separate groups (three British and three German) on successive days they started their ten week, 700 mile march to Charlottesville, Virginia. To my knowledge, a scholarly study of the incarceration of POWs by the Americans remains to be made. Following the capture of a large number of POWs at Bennington, it appears that the troops were separated from their officers with the troops being marched to Boston. At least three prison ships received German POWs captured at Bennington. Then a few more were locked up in the new jail in Cambridge. The local town records of most Massachusetts towns record the care and feeding of POWs. I am not certain when the Rutland barracks were established but I believe it was not until 1778. If so, then any POW from Bennington was locked up elsewhere before being sent to Rutland. Good luck hunting! Bob Brooks From: "Michael Kasler" < [email protected]> Subject: Re: [HESSIAN] Peter Rhine Hart, Colrain MA Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 16:05:18 -0500 Hello Bob Brooks and list; Bob is right about the fact that both British and German POW's were kept at the camp in Rutland, MA. The prisoners from Bennington, at least those who could march, were first marched to Boston and kept on ships in the Boston Harbor while the camp in Rutland was being constructed. During this time, many of the German soldiers were allowed to leave, on their honor/parole, and allowed to work at various occupations throughout the east. The Continental Congress wholeheartedly approved of this practice as it saved them money from not having to care and feed the prisoners. When the camp was done in the spring of 1778, the soldiers remaining in Boston were marched back to Rutland, Mass. where they were interred. Also there were British soldiers. There are many references to this camp, and its occupants, in Dr. Wasmus' diary, which was written by Helga Doblin and published by Greenwood Press. The book, one of the best ever written on this subject, is titled "An Eyewitness Account of the American Revolution and New England Life." The prisoners at the POW camp in Rutland were also allowed to travel into the surrounding countryside in search of employment. They were periodically required to report back to the camp for muster rolls, and to collect pay, mail, etc. Most of these men ended up staying in America after their comrades went back to Europe, my ancestor, Johannes Michael Kastler, included. His name is listed on a report made in December of 1782 as being assigned to the Rutland camp. There are many others listed as being assigned to this camp, but unfortunately it doesn't give any details. The list that I am referring to is entitled: "Nahmentliche Liste Des Hochfurstlichen Regiment Leichter Infanterie, der Obrist Lieutenant von Barner, der Capitaine Thomae Companagnie nach wieder Formirung des Hochfurstliched Corps in Canada rectificierte, durch die mitgebrachten Nachrichten des Obrist Lieutenant von Mengen, bey dessen Ankunft in Canada mit dene saemtlichen Officiers, und einem Theile der Mannschafften, so ehemals unter der Convention gewesen, ingleichen der Recruten von 1781. Montreal, den 1ten December, 1782" (Nieders. Staatsarchiv in Wolfenveuttel, Archivbezeichnung 237-N-107) Unfortunately, I only have a copy of the page on which my ancestor is listed. I am going to try to get a full copy of the list, somehow.... Bob Brooks is correct that no official lists of the prisoners at Rutland has been found. I also strongly suspect that much information about is can be found in the Massachusetts Archives, which restricts access to their materials. What we need is for someone to travel there and look for this stuff. No serious study of the POW camp at Rutland has ever been done. Any volunteers? Massachusetts is too far from Ohio for me, but I would love to do it someday. The site of the Rutland camp still exists, and is marked with a plaque. The well is about all that remains. Michael Kasler ************************************************************************http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/AMREV-HESSIANS/2003-01/1042933887 AMREV-HESSIANS-L Archives Archiver > AMREV-HESSIANS > 2003-01 > 1042933887 From: [email protected] Subject: [HESSIAN] Peter Rhine Hart, Colrain MA Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 18:51:27 EST I'd like to thank the subscribers to this mailing list, especially Bob and Michael, for the suggestions they made in aid of my search for the ancestry of Peter Rhine Hart. He may indeed have been a soldier in a British regiment, of German or Dutch ancestry, which sends my search off in another direction. After settling in Colrain MA circa 1810, he was joined in Colrain by an Alexander Hart who was from Scotland. Alexander Hart married Peter Rhine Hart's daughter Betsey, and had an uncle name Klein in Cambridge NY where Alexander Hart lived before moving to Colrain. I suspect Alexander was part of the same larger Hart/Rhine Hart family, apparently living in Scotland after the Revolutionary War period. I would love to know of any Kleins from the War who settled in the Cambridge NY area. Thanks again Jim Carroll ************************************************************************ http://newsarch.rootsweb.com/th/read/AMREV-HESSIANS/2005-09/1128084055 AMREV-HESSIANS-L Archives Archiver > AMREV-HESSIANS > 2005-09 > 1128084055 From: [email protected] Subject: Peter Rhine Hart Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 08:40:55 EDT Thank you Bob and John for your messages re: Peter Rhine Hart, who was mentioned in a postscript to an article I posted on John Shallow. The only information I have been able to find on Peter Rhine Hart is the following: Mention in History of Petersham MA book as Hessian soldier from Rutland barracks who worked in Petersham along with fellow Hessian soldier George Zaccharias Hattstat. Marriage Intention Greenwich MA June 28 1783 Peter Rainhart and Polly Gross, both of Greenwich MA [one of his daughters claimed to be born in Greenwich] 1790 Census Petersham Worcester Co. MA Peter Hart 1800 Census Sutton Worcester Co. MA Peter R. Hart 1810 Census Colrain Franklin Co MA P.H. Rhine 1820 Census Colrain, Franklin Co MA Peter Hart Colrain VR Peter Hart d. sudden July 5 1830 in Colraine, abt 80 yrs. old Chapter titled The Peter Rine Hart Genealogy in Genealogical History of the Hart Family 1903. "Peter Rine Hart, tradition says, was a soldier in the English army, of Dutch or German nationality, and came in General Burgoyne's brigade, War of the Revolution, and settled in Colerain Mass, soon after. He married Miss Polly Gross. Peter Rine Hart's family were poor." His children and descendants used the surname Hart. One of his children married an Alexander Hart who was supposedly from Scotland. Jim Carroll ************************************************************************ http://newsarch.rootsweb.com/th/read/AMREV-HESSIANS/2005-09/1128091394 AMREV-HESSIANS-L Archives Archiver > AMREV-HESSIANS > 2005-09 > 1128091394 From: "Jack P. Wolfe" < [email protected]> Subject: Re: [HESSIAN] Peter Rhine Hart Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 08:45:09 -0600 References: <[email protected]> Jim Carroll: Read your message with interest. My ancestor is John Casper Shana Wolfe, who recorded his intention to marry in Leominster, Mass in January, 1781 and settled in Rockingham, Vermont. Family history had him as a deserted Hessian, likely from Saratoga. But there is no record of him being at Saratoga. After many years of bumping heads into walls, and with much musing by some of the more knowledgable members of the Amrev Hessians list, it was posited that he might have been at Rutland after being captured on the transport ship "Favourite" that was bringing replacement Hesse-Kassel jaegers in 1777, and that his name was really Johann Kasper Schoenewolf. Some research in Germany makes the name likely. I believe it is out of print and I have not seen it, but there was apparently an article in the JSHA Journal that sought to prove >>that George Hatstadt was on the "Favourite"; and Schonewolf's entry in KATRINA matches that of Hatstadt. What I am missing is any information about the Rutland, Mass. prison camp (other than entries in the Wasmus diary.) I was wondering if you have identified any sources that might give information about who really was at the camp, and what happened to them? It has been suggested that there might be something buried in the Massachusetts Archives, or perhaps at the American Antiquarian Society in Worcester, but I am in Colorado and have not had the opportunity to go back east to search there yet. Jack Wolfe ************************************************************************ http://newsarch.rootsweb.com/th/read/AMREV-HESSIANS/2005-09/1128096929 From: "Bob Brooks" < [email protected]> Subject: Re: [HESSIAN] Peter Rhine Hart Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 12:15:29 -0400 References: <[email protected]> Jim -- > Mention in History of Petersham MA book as Hessian soldier from Rutland > barracks who worked in Petersham along with fellow Hessian soldier >>George Zaccharias Hattstat. This triggers the thought that perhaps Peter was one of the von Scheither recruits assigned to one of the British regiments attached to Burgoyne's army. These regiments included the 9th, 20th, 21st, 24th, 47th & 62nd which surrendered with Borgoyne at Saratoga and marched to Cambridge where they spent the winter in the old Continental Army barracks atop Prospect Hill (The "Hessian" regiments wintered in the barrack atop Winter Hill). In the late spring of 1778, the British Regiments were removed to the new barracks (prison compound) being constructed at Rutland). According to the journal of Lieutenant Anton Adolf Henrich du Roi, the first of the three divisions of the British regiments departed Rutland on 09 Nov 1778, the same day the first of the three divisions of "Hessian" regiments departed Winter Hill. As the aforesaid regiments were standing regiments, I would expect to find extant muster rolls at The National Archives (formerly Public Record Office) at Kew near London. I know that the JSHA has had an ongoing project to identify the almost 2000 von Schiether recruits. In the 1988 JSHA Journal, a list of 290 ecruits was published. There is no Peter Hart or Reinhart on that list (or a George Zaccharias Hattstat).. Since then I have heard that the list now exceeds 600 but I do not have a copy of that list. Bob Brooks ************************************************************************ http://genforum.genealogy.com/hart/messages/3687.html Hart, Alexander 1850 WI Posted by: Della Date: August 04, 2000 at 20:38:36 of 10328 Need ancestery on Alexander Hart, b. 1817 MA, was in Jefferson Co, WI 1850, later moved to Chickisaw, IA. ************************************************************************ http://genforum.genealogy.com/hart/messages/5708.html Re: Hart, Alexander 1850 WI Posted by: jim carroll Date: September 05, 2001 at 17:14:42 In Reply to: Hart, Alexander 1850 WI by Della of 10328 Hello Della and Rhonda Alexander Hart was born circa 1817, probably in Colrain, Franklin County MA, parents Alexander Hart born Scotland and Betsey Hart born Colrain MA. Betsey's father was a Hessian soldier in the Rev War, Peter Rhine Hart (probably Rhinehardt) who adopted the surname Hart. There is a chapter on the descendants of Peter Rhine Hart in a book called Hart Memorial by James M. Hart 1903 (it has a much longer title that lists all the Hart families covered in the book). The entry on your Alexander Hart says; 2715 Alexander Jr. [Hart]; m. Jane Chase. She d. and he m. second and settled in Wisconsin; had three children, as supposed, Alexander, Loretta, and Elizabeth. Alexander also had a brother who went to Wisconsin, David Hart. Hart Memorial merely says he went to Jefferson County, WI. I've been trying to follow the descendants of Peter Rhine Hart and of Alexander Hart from Scotland. Recently found Alexander Hart in the 1880 census of Richland, Chickasaw County, Iowa. Alexander Hart 62 b MA farmer father born Scotland mother born MA Levina Hart wife 52 b NY Lillian Hart daughter 16 b WI Charles Bany stepson 26 b WI Ida Fritcher other 19 b WI ************************************************************************ http://genforum.genealogy.com/hart/messages/5787.html If this is your Alexander Hart, I'd be glad to share the information I've gathered. Would love to know more about your Alexander Hart. Jim Carroll Jim, Peter Rine Hart is my 5th great-grandfather. Peter Rine Hart m. Polly Gross John Hart m. Susan Parker William Hart m. Betsey Hatch Melissa Hart m. Charles Ames Timothy P. Ames m. Laura Hatch Timothy G. Ames (listed as Jennie G. in his book), m. Eleanor Warren my grandparents. I have noticed some mistakes in James M. Hart's book and was wondering if you could recomend some other reference materials on Peter and his descendents? Are there records of Peter's service in the Revolutionary War? As you can tell I have not done much research my newly found ancestors. Any advice would be appreciated and I am willing share my Hart/Hatch/Ames info with you if you like. Carolyn ************************************************************************ http://genforum.genealogy.com/hart/messages/5789.html Jim, Thanks for the response. Very interesting! You can view my Hart information at the following web page: http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/g/r/e/Carolyn-R-Greene/ Scroll to the bottom and view "Genealogy Report: Descendants of William Hart" I obtained the information from vital records, Federal Census returns, Civil War records and the "Hart Memorial". There is also a web site with several years of vital records from the town of Natick, MA where I found some information on the Harts. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~searchinglinane/ Carolyn ************************************************************************ http://genforum.genealogy.com/hart/messages/5794.html Thanks, Carolyn, what a great website!!!! Wish I could find more background info on Peter Rhine Hart. At least we can follow him in census records. Marriage intention was filed in Greenwich MA June 28 1783 Peter Rainhart and Polly Gross, both of Greenwich. 1790 census Petersham, Worcester County, MA Peter Hart one male over 16, one male over 16, four females 1800 census Sutton, Worcester County, MA Peter R. Hart one male under 10, one male 16-26, one male over 45, 4 females under 10, 1 female over 45 1810 census Colrain, Franklin County, MA P.H. Rhine one male 10-16, one male 26-45, one male over 45, 3 females 10-16, one female over 45 1820 census Colrain, Franklin County, MA Peter Hart [not sure whatage columns these are for; 2 younger males, one older male, 3 younger females, one older female] Colrain VR Peter Hart, died sudden July 5, 1830 in Colrain, abt. 80 yrs old One thing it does show; his children were probably born before he moved to Colrain. I wonder why he settled way up in Colrain, after spending time in Worcester County towns? Jim Carroll ************************************************************************ Warm Regards, Jane Curci Descendant of Arnold Haupt, Hessian soldier -----Original Message----- From: wjsmith <[email protected]> To: amrev-hessians <[email protected]> Cc: jo <[email protected]>; amrev-hessians <[email protected]> Sent: Wed, Aug 24, 2011 8:54 pm Subject: Re: [AMREV-HESSIANS] Peter Rine Hart Sorry, this is the posting I meant to show, from 2005 http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/AMREV-HESSIANS/2005-09/1128011151 rom: "john" < [email protected]> ubject: Re: [HESSIAN] John Shallow - Northampton MA ate: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 12:25:51 -0400 eferences: <[email protected]> Hello Jim, and helle Hessian researchers; It is so much fun to read those colourful articles of the ast, and although they cannot be taken as the "gospel's ruth, most have some good leads. Everybody knows hat the German military did not take any soldiers under ive feet, this John SHALLOW was surely no exception. he name of course puzzles me, it is probably the anglicized ersion of SCHELLE, and he was with Col. Baum's force, hich means he was captured at the Battle of Bennington n August 1777. Involved were the Brunswick Dragoon egiment under Baum, and one or two cannons of the esse-Hanau artillery. Later on the Breymann's Corps as involved in the battle after the Baum forces were lready defeated. And while I am at it, you are looking for your ancestor eter Rhine Hart, why not look for Peter REINHART, r REINHARD, that's a common name in Germany. Good luck, ohn Helmut Merz. much handicapped without my files) ---- Original Message ----- rom: < [email protected]> o: < [email protected]> ent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 9:37 AM ubject: [HESSIAN] John Shallow - Northampton MA I found this article in the Hampshire Gazette Northampton, Hampshire County MA) and thought t might help someone in their research. Tuesday July 31 1855 Familiar Sketches of the Connecticut Valley Northampton 50 years ago ... Among the recollections of childhood, the gingerbread seller must not e forgotten. The baker was a Mr. Blackman, who made the best possible gingerbread, past, present or future. But the dealings of the child were ot with the baker who sold at wholesale, by the whole 'card', so much as with the man ho retailed it at a copper per 'Roll'. His name was John Shallow. He was one f the "Institutions" of the town. He was, I believe, an Hessian by birth, aptured with Baum's Force, who floated off from his fellows, and was left behind. is age was uncertain, but between fifty and one hundred, his height nearly ive feet, wiht a full compensation in thickness and specific density, for any deficiency in length. <SNIP> Jim Carroll PS Still searching for the origins of Peter Rhine Hart who settled and ied in Colrain MA. LEASE CHECK ALL OF YOUR SUBJECTS! ~~~~~~~~ OUNDER: John H. Merz 1924-2006 Created 1998 ~~~~~~~~~~~ ttp://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin ~~~~~~~~~~~ DMINISTRATOR<Kerri> [email protected] ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message
Hi, I just searched the Hessian website and found: http://freepages.military.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~bonsteinandgilpin/a/amhessians17.htm page 74 of the Hessian Guide by John Merz is listred: Reinhard, Franz, K-22, S#134, D2-11/1783,(Reynhart,Francis?) Reinhart, Francis, no info., Ruth Durica, JSHA 1997 If you have a chance to to this link http://freepages.military.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~bonsteinandgilpin/r-c/resources1.htm and find out where a set of books called HETRINA. Nelda Percival Genealogy: Without documentation you have nothing but gossip, something to look at but "Nothing to repeat"! My Websites: http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~bonsteinandgilpin/ http://aircastles.getadeal.us
Hi Everybody, Can anyone help her? email and address included respond to her off list...she isn't a member..n. JoAnn Sending your email to the American Hessian mailinglist at rootsweb.com. I am not a researcher. There are people there (old timers) almost as good as John Merz.. Nelda From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Peter Rine Hart Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 18:23:08 -0400 Hi Nelda; I am trying to help Peter Flynn find out more about his Hessian soldier--Peter Rine Hart--who was with my Hessian ancestor--Georg Zacharias Hattstätt --after the war when they worked together at a pottery works in Petersham, Mass. Both of us have been through many of the things wherein a Hessians name might be listed only to discover---no Rine Hart there. All we do know for sure is that Peter Rine Hart was in the Rutland, Mass Barracks for a time with Georg and that neither one of them was sent to Virginia when the other troops were moved there. Georg had signed a petition to be released and most likely had taken the oath of allegiance by that time as he was married to Beulah Martin--but we have no records for Rine Hart. Peter and I need to KNOW where Rine Hart came from and what unit he may have been a part of in this war. IE: was he taken with Georg on the brig Favorite or was he with Burgoyne's Hessians??? and why are there so few records of the men held in the Rutland barracks.??? Also, it was said that Johannes Helmut Merz was the foremost person on Hessians and I would like to KNOW if he ever came up with muster roll lists for the Ansbach Bayreuth Jaeger corps in Germany that must have been made there before the men were put on the transports and if they might contain the names of Hattstätt or Rine Hart on those lists??? I know that you may not do research but based on what we have uncovered thus far, might you suggest other places where we might find some answers to these questions? We NEED to know the answers. Thank you for your consideration. Sincerely; Jo Ann Hatstat [email protected]
Frank & Jack -- Eric Schnitzer is the historian at the Saratoga National Historcal Park. I know he has all the extant muster rolls for the British 62d Regiment of Foot but does not have muster rolls for the other British regiments who surrendered with Burgoyne. The DLAR at Washington Crossing PA has digital photocopies of most of the regiments. I don't know what he holds from the German regiments there but the usual references are Claus Reuter for the Brunswick troops and HETRINA VI for Hesse-Hanau troops. Bob Brooks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Francis T. Watters" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [AMREV-HESSIANS] HETRINA Good morning Jack; Happy July 4th. May you have a good day of celebrations with family and friends. I read with interest your email below in which you refer to a muster roll maintained at the Saratoga Battlefield National Park. I visited their website and they don't state clearly what they have as far as names of soldiers are concerned, nor how one can find out if they have the name of a particular soldier. I'm looking for one of my ancestors - a Braunschweig soldier who might have been there and re-patriated back to Canada. Could you tell me how I can access that muster roll for the Hessians who might have been captured at the battles there? Would I have to make a trip to access the muster roll? I didn't find it on the Internet either. Thank you for any assistance. Frank Watters (descendant of Johann Halbâr, aka Albert) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Wolfe" <[email protected]> To: "Margaret Haas" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 9:40 PM Subject: Re: [AMREV-HESSIANS] HETRINA I am aware of at least one: Johann Ludewig Wolf, a Braunschweig soldier born in Steinbrunn, Alsace-Lorraine who is on the muster rolls maintained at Saratoga Battlefield National Park by the Park Service. I suspect that there are more from Alsace on those rolls. I am sure you have come across the on-line sources for genealogy in Alsace-Lorraine. I ran across them a couple of years ago when I tried to determine whether this Johann was my ancestor, but didn't have sufficient foreign language skills to navigate them successfully. Jack Wolfe PLEASE CHECK ALL OF YOUR SUBJECTS! ~~~~~~~~~ FOUNDER: John H. Merz 1924-2006 Created 1998 ~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ADMINISTRATOR<Kerri> [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Good morning Jack; Happy July 4th. May you have a good day of celebrations with family and friends. I read with interest your email below in which you refer to a muster roll maintained at the Saratoga Battlefield National Park. I visited their website and they don't state clearly what they have as far as names of soldiers are concerned, nor how one can find out if they have the name of a particular soldier. I'm looking for one of my ancestors - a Braunschweig soldier who might have been there and re-patriated back to Canada. Could you tell me how I can access that muster roll for the Hessians who might have been captured at the battles there? Would I have to make a trip to access the muster roll? I didn't find it on the Internet either. Thank you for any assistance. Frank Watters (descendant of Johann Halbâr, aka Albert) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Wolfe" <[email protected]> To: "Margaret Haas" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 9:40 PM Subject: Re: [AMREV-HESSIANS] HETRINA I am aware of at least one: Johann Ludewig Wolf, a Braunschweig soldier born in Steinbrunn, Alsace-Lorraine who is on the muster rolls maintained at Saratoga Battlefield National Park by the Park Service. I suspect that there are more from Alsace on those rolls. I am sure you have come across the on-line sources for genealogy in Alsace-Lorraine. I ran across them a couple of years ago when I tried to determine whether this Johann was my ancestor, but didn't have sufficient foreign language skills to navigate them successfully. Jack Wolfe
Frank: When I was looking, a number of years ago before much information was available on the web, they did not volunteer the information freely, and in today's budget crunch times I doubt if they are any more free in volunteering to look for things. I got the information that I did by visiting the park, and I was lucky enough to be able to talk to and establish a rapport with the Park Service person, since retired, who was maintaining the list. I never did get to see the list myself. He was hoping to get funding to get the list computerized, which it was not at the time, so things could be easier today. And if you do go and talk to someone, remember that there were few, if any, "Hessians" at Saratoga. The German troops there were mostly from other parts of Germania. Jack Wolfe On Jul 4, 2011, at 10:04 AM, Francis T. Watters wrote: > Good morning Jack; > > Happy July 4th. May you have a good day of celebrations with family and > friends. > > I read with interest your email below in which you refer to a muster roll > maintained at the Saratoga Battlefield National Park. I visited their > website and they don't state clearly what they have as far as names of > soldiers are concerned, nor how one can find out if they have the name of a > particular soldier. > > I'm looking for one of my ancestors - a Braunschweig soldier who might have > been there and re-patriated back to Canada. > > Could you tell me how I can access that muster roll for the Hessians who > might have been captured at the battles there? Would I have to make a trip > to access the muster roll? I didn't find it on the Internet either. > > Thank you for any assistance. > > > Frank Watters > (descendant of Johann Halbâr, aka Albert) > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jack Wolfe" <[email protected]> > To: "Margaret Haas" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 9:40 PM > Subject: Re: [AMREV-HESSIANS] HETRINA > > > I am aware of at least one: Johann Ludewig Wolf, a Braunschweig soldier > born in Steinbrunn, Alsace-Lorraine who is on the muster rolls maintained at > Saratoga Battlefield National Park by the Park Service. I suspect that there > are more from Alsace on those rolls. I am sure you have come across the > on-line sources for genealogy in Alsace-Lorraine. I ran across them a couple > of years ago when I tried to determine whether this Johann was my ancestor, > but didn't have sufficient foreign language skills to navigate them > successfully. > Jack Wolfe > > > PLEASE CHECK ALL OF YOUR SUBJECTS! > ~~~~~~~~~ > FOUNDER: John H. Merz 1924-2006 Created 1998 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ > http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ADMINISTRATOR<Kerri> [email protected] > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Nelda, Margaret, There is a comprhensive genealogy section at the central NYC public Library at 42nd Street and 5th, the Milstein Division, and they have most everything available, regarding the Hessians. The catalog is online, and they have the HETRINA materials listed there. There are also a number of other resources in NYC for genealogy, including The New York Historicial Society, which has the original Riedesel War Papers (handwritten during the Amrev) and a microfilm of them - I found my Brunswicker in the Riedesel material, with quite a bit of info regarding his age, height, place of origin, religion, places and dates of desertion, marital status, height, etc. John Merz used to have a transcription of some or all of the Riedesel papers - he translated the parts that were difficult for me, and Bob Brooks later revised the estimated height numbers from 5'5" to 5'7", becase the old metric units, zolls and strichs, were of different values in the 18th century than today. Bill Smith Daniel Engelcke, Von Specht Regiment, Ehrenkrook Div., Brunswick ----- Original Message ----- From: Nelda Percival Date: Thursday, June 30, 2011 10:58 pm Subject: Re: [AMREV-HESSIANS] HETRINA To: [email protected] > > Margaret, > you taught me something... LOL I thought the Deux Pont troops > were on the English side. Don't remember where I read it but > some French Troops were on the English side.. > > NYC, well then you have to have a Genealogical Library in the > City. And being NYC it has to have the full set of HETRINA. Call > the City Library and ask them if there actually is a > Genealogical Library... I know of quite a few Huston, TX; Auston > Tx, Dallas,TX, Kansas State Genealogical Library, Virginia State > Genealogical Library..... So NYC just has to have one. If not a > seperate library then part of the City Library. > > N. >
Nelda, YES, absolutely! Weren't the Deux Pont troops "patriotic" in the sense that they were fighting for the colonies' independence! They were the "good guys". My older relatives were a little sheepish I gather--almost whispering that our ancestors were Hessian. That's why I doubt our ancestors were Deux Pont troops! If I can find a Deux Pont list of names, I will look though! BTW, I thank you for your feedback in your email. I have been thinking I need to go slowly through the HETRINA files. I live in Manhattan in New York City. All the best, Margaret -----Original Message----- >From: Nelda Percival >Sent: Jun 30, 2011 10:26 PM >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: [AMREV-HESSIANS] HETRINA > > >Margaret, You do know a Hessian was not a patriot. A Patriot was a person living in the colonies 1775 -1783 who wanted independance from England. A loyalist was a person living in the colonies (both of what is considered American Colonies and Canadian Colonies ) who were loyal to the English Crown. > >YOUR " I doubt my ancestors were with the Deux Ponts or that's the way the family would have remembered them--as French-speaking patriots vs Hessians in the American Revolution. " > > >Nelda > >Nelda http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~bonsteinandgilpin/ > >PLEASE CHECK ALL OF YOUR SUBJECTS! >~~~~~~~~~ >FOUNDER: John H. Merz 1924-2006 Created 1998 >~~~~~~~~~~~~ >http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin >~~~~~~~~~~~~ >ADMINISTRATOR [email protected] >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message www.haasconsult.com 212-741-2457 Transformative counseling, coaching, and consulting "Everything Is Possible!"
Margaret, you taught me something... LOL I thought the Deux Pont troops were on the English side. Don't remember where I read it but some French Troops were on the English side.. NYC, well then you have to have a Genealogical Library in the City. And being NYC it has to have the full set of HETRINA. Call the City Library and ask them if there actually is a Genealogical Library... I know of quite a few Huston, TX; Auston Tx, Dallas,TX, Kansas State Genealogical Library, Virginia State Genealogical Library..... So NYC just has to have one. If not a seperate library then part of the City Library. N. Nelda http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~bonsteinandgilpin/
Just a thought here---Margaret have you checked out the archives on the website? You might think it tedious but who knows maybe there is a query there that would give you a clue. Peggy Lyte Tyrrell, Gottlieb Westfall, Hessian > [Original Message] > From: Margaret Haas <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Date: 6/30/2011 7:43:01 PM > Subject: Re: [AMREV-HESSIANS] HETRINA > > Yes, Bob. Thank you for your explanation of HETRINA. It is helpful. My Corya/Coryea family with its many avid genealogists has this oral lore passed down through many of its branches that our American fore- fathers--probably more than one--were brothers who served as Hessians from Alsace (on the now French-German border) during the AmRev. Unfortunately, no one has further details. Like so many who spoke German around the American Revolution, they seem to have first appeared settled in Pennsylvania to those of us trying to tracking them down in 2011. What I really am after is any suggestions about what to do next other than give up on this oral lore. I have checked every list on line that I can find. I have learned from that there WERE Hessians from Alsace! I doubt my ancestors were with the Deux Ponts or that's the way the family would have remembered them--as French-speaking patriots vs Hessians in the American Revolution. Has anyone here had any luck hiring a professional genealogist to search for their Hessian ancestors? Of course other suggestions welcome also. Thanks so much, Margaret -----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >Sent: Jun 30, 2011 12:41 PM >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: [AMREV-HESSIANS] HETRINA > >Bob: > >Thank you for sharing the interesting specifics of HETRINA history and >structure. HETRINA is to most of us AMREV-HESSIANS members is like a car in >which you just turn the key and it starts (or doesn't). Now, thanks to you, we > know more about the engine design! > >Everett Spees >Descendant of Pvt. Friederich Spies Co 3, Fusileer Regiment Erbrinz > > >In a message dated 6/30/2011 9:11:16 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, >[email protected] writes: > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bob Brooks >Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 8:22 AM >To: [email protected]; [email protected] >Subject: Re: [AMREV-HESSIANS] HETRINA > >Carol -- >> Dear Group, I don't understand how to access the HETRINA. Can anyone >> help >> me? > >I am afraid you have to do it the old fashioned way -- find a library >which >has a complete set. The formal title is: >_Hessische Truppen im Amerikanischen Unabh����ngigkeitskrieg (HETRINA) Index >nach Familiennamen_ with the editors listed as Inge Auerbach & Otto >Fr����hlich. > >Literal translation of the title is: "Hessian Troops in the American >Independencewar (HETRINA) Index by Familynames" > >It comprises six volumes with vol 6 in two parts and remains under >copyright >protection. The first 5 volumes were published with paper covers in the >1970s and vol 6 in the 1980s. I believe the entire set was reprinted in >the >last decade and is still available for purchase at the arichives in >Marburg, >Germany, at roughly 30 Euros per volume. > >HETRINA is not the "holy grail" as it merely is a computer listing of >abstracts from the original records, key punched onto the obsolete 80 >column >IBM keypunch cards (state-of-the-art technology in the 1960s when the >program was started) then processed through a card sorter, then run again >through a mainframe which printed out an IBM formated 125 column report. >HETRINA is merely a photoreduced copy of that computer printout with a few >pages of introduction, part in German, part in Englsih. > >The printout may not include all the information in the original record >(and >may include material NOT in the original record as the compliers >manipulated >some data in order to get the cards to sort as desired) but there is >adequate (coded) citation to the original records, explained in the >introduction. In order to keep the "event codes" rememberable, >frequently >two near-duplicate cards were prepared with only the event code changed. >For example, an event where a soldier deserted [code 12] from POW status >[code 11] would have duplicate cards/lines in HETRINA. > >Bob Brooks > > >PLEASE CHECK ALL OF YOUR SUBJECTS! >~~~~~~~~~ >FOUNDER: John H. Merz 1924-2006 Created 1998 >~~~~~~~~~~~~ >http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin >~~~~~~~~~~~~ >ADMINISTRATOR [email protected] >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the >subject and the body of the message > > >PLEASE CHECK ALL OF YOUR SUBJECTS! >~~~~~~~~~ >FOUNDER: John H. Merz 1924-2006 Created 1998 >~~~~~~~~~~~~ >http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin >~~~~~~~~~~~~ >ADMINISTRATOR [email protected] >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the >subject and the body of the message >PLEASE CHECK ALL OF YOUR SUBJECTS! >~~~~~~~~~ >FOUNDER: John H. Merz 1924-2006 Created 1998 >~~~~~~~~~~~~ >http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin >~~~~~~~~~~~~ >ADMINISTRATOR [email protected] >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message PLEASE CHECK ALL OF YOUR SUBJECTS! ~~~~~~~~~ FOUNDER: John H. Merz 1924-2006 Created 1998 ~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ADMINISTRATOR<Kerri> [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1516/3735 - Release Date: 06/30/11
Margaret, You do know a Hessian was not a patriot. A Patriot was a person living in the colonies 1775 -1783 who wanted independance from England. A loyalist was a person living in the colonies (both of what is considered American Colonies and Canadian Colonies ) who were loyal to the English Crown. YOUR " I doubt my ancestors were with the Deux Ponts or that's the way the family would have remembered them--as French-speaking patriots vs Hessians in the American Revolution. " Nelda Nelda http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~bonsteinandgilpin/
try Familysearch.org, go to Library, seach for Hetrina. If I remember, they have the full set of 6, but not on-line; you can secure forms to request a search for individuals, cost was $4.00, forms at your local Family History Center. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Brooks" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [AMREV-HESSIANS] HETRINA Carol -- > Dear Group, I don't understand how to access the HETRINA. Can anyone > help > me? I am afraid you have to do it the old fashioned way -- find a library which has a complete set. The formal title is: _Hessische Truppen im Amerikanischen Unabhängigkeitskrieg (HETRINA) Index nach Familiennamen_ with the editors listed as Inge Auerbach & Otto Fröhlich. Literal translation of the title is: "Hessian Troops in the American Independencewar (HETRINA) Index by Familynames" It comprises six volumes with vol 6 in two parts and remains under copyright protection. The first 5 volumes were published with paper covers in the 1970s and vol 6 in the 1980s. I believe the entire set was reprinted in the last decade and is still available for purchase at the arichives in Marburg, Germany, at roughly 30 Euros per volume. HETRINA is not the "holy grail" as it merely is a computer listing of abstracts from the original records, key punched onto the obsolete 80 column IBM keypunch cards (state-of-the-art technology in the 1960s when the program was started) then processed through a card sorter, then run again through a mainframe which printed out an IBM formated 125 column report. HETRINA is merely a photoreduced copy of that computer printout with a few pages of introduction, part in German, part in Englsih. The printout may not include all the information in the original record (and may include material NOT in the original record as the compliers manipulated some data in order to get the cards to sort as desired) but there is adequate (coded) citation to the original records, explained in the introduction. In order to keep the "event codes" rememberable, frequently two near-duplicate cards were prepared with only the event code changed. For example, an event where a soldier deserted [code 12] from POW status [code 11] would have duplicate cards/lines in HETRINA. Bob Brooks PLEASE CHECK ALL OF YOUR SUBJECTS! ~~~~~~~~~ FOUNDER: John H. Merz 1924-2006 Created 1998 ~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ADMINISTRATOR<Kerri> [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3735 - Release Date: 06/30/11 02:34:00
The French and Germans disputed the Alsace region for years--controlled first by one, then the other. would suggest a google search to compare dates you have vs which country was in control at that time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret Haas" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 7:40 PM Subject: Re: [AMREV-HESSIANS] HETRINA > > Yes, Bob. Thank you for your explanation of HETRINA. It is helpful. > My Corya/Coryea family with its many avid genealogists has this oral > lore passed down through many of its branches that our American fore- > fathers--probably more than one--were brothers who served as Hessians > from Alsace (on the now French-German border) during the AmRev. > Unfortunately, no one has further details. Like so many who spoke > German around the American Revolution, they seem to have first > appeared settled in Pennsylvania to those of us trying to tracking > them down in 2011. > What I really am after is any suggestions about what to do next other > than give up on this oral lore. I have checked every list on line that > I can find. I have learned from that there WERE Hessians from Alsace! > I doubt my ancestors were with the Deux Ponts or that's the way the > family would have remembered them--as French-speaking patriots vs > Hessians in the American Revolution. > Has anyone here had any luck hiring a professional genealogist to search > for their Hessian ancestors? Of course other suggestions welcome also. > Thanks so much, > Margaret > -----Original Message----- > >From: [email protected] > >Sent: Jun 30, 2011 12:41 PM > >To: [email protected] > >Subject: Re: [AMREV-HESSIANS] HETRINA > > > >Bob: > > > >Thank you for sharing the interesting specifics of HETRINA history and > >structure. HETRINA is to most of us AMREV-HESSIANS members is like a > car in > >which you just turn the key and it starts (or doesn't). Now, thanks to > you, > we > > know more about the engine design! > > > >Everett Spees > >Descendant of Pvt. Friederich Spies Co 3, Fusileer Regiment Erbrinz > > > > > >In a message dated 6/30/2011 9:11:16 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > >[email protected] writes: > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Bob Brooks > >Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 8:22 AM > >To: [email protected]; [email protected] > >Subject: Re: [AMREV-HESSIANS] HETRINA > > > >Carol -- > >> Dear Group, I don't understand how to access the HETRINA. Can anyone > >> help > >> me? > > > >I am afraid you have to do it the old fashioned way -- find a library > >which > >has a complete set. The formal title is: > >_Hessische Truppen im Amerikanischen Unabhängigkeitskrieg (HETRINA) > Index > >nach Familiennamen_ with the editors listed as Inge Auerbach & Otto > >Fröhlich. > > > >Literal translation of the title is: "Hessian Troops in the American > >Independencewar (HETRINA) Index by Familynames" > > > >It comprises six volumes with vol 6 in two parts and remains under > >copyright > >protection. The first 5 volumes were published with paper covers in the > >1970s and vol 6 in the 1980s. I believe the entire set was reprinted in > >the > >last decade and is still available for purchase at the arichives in > >Marburg, > >Germany, at roughly 30 Euros per volume. > > > >HETRINA is not the "holy grail" as it merely is a computer listing of > >abstracts from the original records, key punched onto the obsolete 80 > >column > >IBM keypunch cards (state-of-the-art technology in the 1960s when the > >program was started) then processed through a card sorter, then run > again > >through a mainframe which printed out an IBM formated 125 column > report. > >HETRINA is merely a photoreduced copy of that computer printout with a > few > >pages of introduction, part in German, part in Englsih. > > > >The printout may not include all the information in the original record > >(and > >may include material NOT in the original record as the compliers > >manipulated > >some data in order to get the cards to sort as desired) but there is > >adequate (coded) citation to the original records, explained in the > >introduction. In order to keep the "event codes" rememberable, > >frequently > >two near-duplicate cards were prepared with only the event code > changed. > >For example, an event where a soldier deserted [code 12] from POW > status > >[code 11] would have duplicate cards/lines in HETRINA. > > > >Bob Brooks > > > > > >PLEASE CHECK ALL OF YOUR SUBJECTS! > >~~~~~~~~~ > >FOUNDER: John H. Merz 1924-2006 Created 1998 > >~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin > >~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >ADMINISTRATOR [email protected] > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > quotes in the > >subject and the body of the message > > > > > >PLEASE CHECK ALL OF YOUR SUBJECTS! > >~~~~~~~~~ > >FOUNDER: John H. Merz 1924-2006 Created 1998 > >~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin > >~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >ADMINISTRATOR [email protected] > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > quotes in the > >subject and the body of the message > >PLEASE CHECK ALL OF YOUR SUBJECTS! > >~~~~~~~~~ > >FOUNDER: John H. Merz 1924-2006 Created 1998 > >~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin > >~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >ADMINISTRATOR [email protected] > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > PLEASE CHECK ALL OF YOUR SUBJECTS! > ~~~~~~~~~ > FOUNDER: John H. Merz 1924-2006 Created 1998 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ > http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ADMINISTRATOR<Kerri> [email protected] > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3735 - Release Date: 06/30/11 02:34:00
Yes, Bob. Thank you for your explanation of HETRINA. It is helpful. My Corya/Coryea family with its many avid genealogists has this oral lore passed down through many of its branches that our American fore- fathers--probably more than one--were brothers who served as Hessians from Alsace (on the now French-German border) during the AmRev. Unfortunately, no one has further details. Like so many who spoke German around the American Revolution, they seem to have first appeared settled in Pennsylvania to those of us trying to tracking them down in 2011. What I really am after is any suggestions about what to do next other than give up on this oral lore. I have checked every list on line that I can find. I have learned from that there WERE Hessians from Alsace! I doubt my ancestors were with the Deux Ponts or that's the way the family would have remembered them--as French-speaking patriots vs Hessians in the American Revolution. Has anyone here had any luck hiring a professional genealogist to search for their Hessian ancestors? Of course other suggestions welcome also. Thanks so much, Margaret -----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >Sent: Jun 30, 2011 12:41 PM >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: [AMREV-HESSIANS] HETRINA > >Bob: > >Thank you for sharing the interesting specifics of HETRINA history and >structure. HETRINA is to most of us AMREV-HESSIANS members is like a car in >which you just turn the key and it starts (or doesn't). Now, thanks to you, we > know more about the engine design! > >Everett Spees >Descendant of Pvt. Friederich Spies Co 3, Fusileer Regiment Erbrinz > > >In a message dated 6/30/2011 9:11:16 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, >[email protected] writes: > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bob Brooks >Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 8:22 AM >To: [email protected]; [email protected] >Subject: Re: [AMREV-HESSIANS] HETRINA > >Carol -- >> Dear Group, I don't understand how to access the HETRINA. Can anyone >> help >> me? > >I am afraid you have to do it the old fashioned way -- find a library >which >has a complete set. The formal title is: >_Hessische Truppen im Amerikanischen Unabhängigkeitskrieg (HETRINA) Index >nach Familiennamen_ with the editors listed as Inge Auerbach & Otto >Fröhlich. > >Literal translation of the title is: "Hessian Troops in the American >Independencewar (HETRINA) Index by Familynames" > >It comprises six volumes with vol 6 in two parts and remains under >copyright >protection. The first 5 volumes were published with paper covers in the >1970s and vol 6 in the 1980s. I believe the entire set was reprinted in >the >last decade and is still available for purchase at the arichives in >Marburg, >Germany, at roughly 30 Euros per volume. > >HETRINA is not the "holy grail" as it merely is a computer listing of >abstracts from the original records, key punched onto the obsolete 80 >column >IBM keypunch cards (state-of-the-art technology in the 1960s when the >program was started) then processed through a card sorter, then run again >through a mainframe which printed out an IBM formated 125 column report. >HETRINA is merely a photoreduced copy of that computer printout with a few >pages of introduction, part in German, part in Englsih. > >The printout may not include all the information in the original record >(and >may include material NOT in the original record as the compliers >manipulated >some data in order to get the cards to sort as desired) but there is >adequate (coded) citation to the original records, explained in the >introduction. In order to keep the "event codes" rememberable, >frequently >two near-duplicate cards were prepared with only the event code changed. >For example, an event where a soldier deserted [code 12] from POW status >[code 11] would have duplicate cards/lines in HETRINA. > >Bob Brooks > > >PLEASE CHECK ALL OF YOUR SUBJECTS! >~~~~~~~~~ >FOUNDER: John H. Merz 1924-2006 Created 1998 >~~~~~~~~~~~~ >http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin >~~~~~~~~~~~~ >ADMINISTRATOR [email protected] >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the >subject and the body of the message > > >PLEASE CHECK ALL OF YOUR SUBJECTS! >~~~~~~~~~ >FOUNDER: John H. Merz 1924-2006 Created 1998 >~~~~~~~~~~~~ >http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin >~~~~~~~~~~~~ >ADMINISTRATOR [email protected] >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the >subject and the body of the message >PLEASE CHECK ALL OF YOUR SUBJECTS! >~~~~~~~~~ >FOUNDER: John H. Merz 1924-2006 Created 1998 >~~~~~~~~~~~~ >http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin >~~~~~~~~~~~~ >ADMINISTRATOR [email protected] >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
I am aware of at least one: Johann Ludewig Wolf, a Braunschweig soldier born in Steinbrunn, Alsace-Lorraine who is on the muster rolls maintained at Saratoga Battlefield National Park by the Park Service. I suspect that there are more from Alsace on those rolls. I am sure you have come across the on-line sources for genealogy in Alsace-Lorraine. I ran across them a couple of years ago when I tried to determine whether this Johann was my ancestor, but didn't have sufficient foreign language skills to navigate them successfully. Jack Wolfe On Jun 30, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Margaret Haas wrote: > > Yes, Bob. Thank you for your explanation of HETRINA. It is helpful. > My Corya/Coryea family with its many avid genealogists has this oral > lore passed down through many of its branches that our American fore- > fathers--probably more than one--were brothers who served as Hessians > from Alsace (on the now French-German border) during the AmRev. > Unfortunately, no one has further details. Like so many who spoke > German around the American Revolution, they seem to have first > appeared settled in Pennsylvania to those of us trying to tracking > them down in 2011. > What I really am after is any suggestions about what to do next other > than give up on this oral lore. I have checked every list on line that > I can find. I have learned from that there WERE Hessians from Alsace! > I doubt my ancestors were with the Deux Ponts or that's the way the > family would have remembered them--as French-speaking patriots vs > Hessians in the American Revolution. > Has anyone here had any luck hiring a professional genealogist to search > for their Hessian ancestors? Of course other suggestions welcome also. > Thanks so much, > Margaret > -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> Sent: Jun 30, 2011 12:41 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [AMREV-HESSIANS] HETRINA >> >> Bob: >> >> Thank you for sharing the interesting specifics of HETRINA history and >> structure. HETRINA is to most of us AMREV-HESSIANS members is like a car in >> which you just turn the key and it starts (or doesn't). Now, thanks to you, > we >> know more about the engine design! >> >> Everett Spees >> Descendant of Pvt. Friederich Spies Co 3, Fusileer Regiment Erbrinz >> >> >> In a message dated 6/30/2011 9:11:16 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, >> [email protected] writes: >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bob Brooks >> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 8:22 AM >> To: [email protected]; [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [AMREV-HESSIANS] HETRINA >> >> Carol -- >>> Dear Group, I don't understand how to access the HETRINA. Can anyone >>> help >>> me? >> >> I am afraid you have to do it the old fashioned way -- find a library >> which >> has a complete set. The formal title is: >> _Hessische Truppen im Amerikanischen Unabhängigkeitskrieg (HETRINA) Index >> nach Familiennamen_ with the editors listed as Inge Auerbach & Otto >> Fröhlich. >> >> Literal translation of the title is: "Hessian Troops in the American >> Independencewar (HETRINA) Index by Familynames" >> >> It comprises six volumes with vol 6 in two parts and remains under >> copyright >> protection. The first 5 volumes were published with paper covers in the >> 1970s and vol 6 in the 1980s. I believe the entire set was reprinted in >> the >> last decade and is still available for purchase at the arichives in >> Marburg, >> Germany, at roughly 30 Euros per volume. >> >> HETRINA is not the "holy grail" as it merely is a computer listing of >> abstracts from the original records, key punched onto the obsolete 80 >> column >> IBM keypunch cards (state-of-the-art technology in the 1960s when the >> program was started) then processed through a card sorter, then run again >> through a mainframe which printed out an IBM formated 125 column report. >> HETRINA is merely a photoreduced copy of that computer printout with a few >> pages of introduction, part in German, part in Englsih. >> >> The printout may not include all the information in the original record >> (and >> may include material NOT in the original record as the compliers >> manipulated >> some data in order to get the cards to sort as desired) but there is >> adequate (coded) citation to the original records, explained in the >> introduction. In order to keep the "event codes" rememberable, >> frequently >> two near-duplicate cards were prepared with only the event code changed. >> For example, an event where a soldier deserted [code 12] from POW status >> [code 11] would have duplicate cards/lines in HETRINA. >> >> Bob Brooks >> >> >> PLEASE CHECK ALL OF YOUR SUBJECTS! >> ~~~~~~~~~ >> FOUNDER: John H. Merz 1924-2006 Created 1998 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> ADMINISTRATOR [email protected] >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the >> subject and the body of the message >> >> >> PLEASE CHECK ALL OF YOUR SUBJECTS! >> ~~~~~~~~~ >> FOUNDER: John H. Merz 1924-2006 Created 1998 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> ADMINISTRATOR [email protected] >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the >> subject and the body of the message >> PLEASE CHECK ALL OF YOUR SUBJECTS! >> ~~~~~~~~~ >> FOUNDER: John H. Merz 1924-2006 Created 1998 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> ADMINISTRATOR [email protected] >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > PLEASE CHECK ALL OF YOUR SUBJECTS! > ~~~~~~~~~ > FOUNDER: John H. Merz 1924-2006 Created 1998 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ > http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ADMINISTRATOR<Kerri> [email protected] > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
A couple of questions about Reuter’s book ‘Brunswick Troops in N.A.” if someone has the time to answer: 1. I have the book on Inter-library Loan from the New York State Library. This copy has introductory pages, i through xxi, followed by 94 pages with tables of data on individual soldiers. Though there are no signs of physical damage, the way page xxi ends suggests that one or more pages should follow. Could someone with access to another copy please check to see if there are pages between xxi and the data tables that the NYSL copy does not have? 2. In the seventh column (Unit) of the tables, many entries have the format #.Rec where # can be 1, 2, 3, or higher. Since these entries are blank in the eighth column (Company), I assume ‘Rec’ is short for Recruit (new?), Recruited, etc. Is that correct? And what do the numbers (#) signify? The other abbreviations are explained on page xiii, but this one is not. Thanks for any help that you can provide. Ed Harrison
Hi Ed I have my own and non altered copy of Reuter's book and there is a xxii page. That page was a flying sheet added by the editor Heritage Books. It is the continuation of page xxi : First Lieutenant Christoph Adolf Ludwig Mühlenfeltd (died 6.08.1777 near Bennington) Second Lieutenant Albrecht Christian Raabe Ensign, later Second Lieutenant, Lucas Rhenius (died 13.09.1783 on the march back) Surgeon Moritz 5. Captain Car von Geusau's Compagny First Lieutenant Gottlieb Kotte (died in 1777) Second Lieutenant Friedrich Fricke Ensign Johann von Bergert (died in 1777) Ensign Graf von Rantzau (died in 1777) Surgeon Bendix Turnau Strenght: 24 officers, 56 nco's, 14 drummers, 528 privates and 36 servants. Strenght of the Corps: 176 officers, 389 nco's, 102 drummers, 3372 privates and 261 servants. That is on page xxii !! For the Rec. is for Recruits #. The same regiment receveid new recruits during the war and that is that REc. means. Claude Crégheur -------------------------------------------------- From: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 1:30 PM To: <[email protected]> Subject: [AMREV-HESSIANS] Claus Reuter's book > > > A couple of questions about Reuter’s book ‘Brunswick Troops in N.A.” if > someone has the time to answer: > > > > 1. I have the book on Inter-library Loan from the New York State Library. > This copy has introductory pages, i through xxi, followed by 94 pages with > tables of data on individual soldiers. > > > > Though there are no signs of physical damage, the way page xxi ends > suggests that one or more pages should follow. Could someone with access > to another copy please check to see if there are pages between xxi and the > data tables that the NYSL copy does not have? > > > > 2. In the seventh column (Unit) of the tables, many entries have the > format #.Rec where # can be 1, 2, 3, or higher. Since these entries are > blank in the eighth column (Company), I assume ‘Rec’ is short for Recruit > (new?), Recruited, etc. Is that correct? And what do the numbers (#) > signify? The other abbreviations are explained on page xiii, but this one > is not. > > > > Thanks for any help that you can provide. > > > > Ed Harrison > PLEASE CHECK ALL OF YOUR SUBJECTS! > ~~~~~~~~~ > FOUNDER: John H. Merz 1924-2006 Created 1998 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ > http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ADMINISTRATOR<Kerri> [email protected] > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Bob: Thank you for sharing the interesting specifics of HETRINA history and structure. HETRINA is to most of us AMREV-HESSIANS members is like a car in which you just turn the key and it starts (or doesn't). Now, thanks to you, we know more about the engine design! Everett Spees Descendant of Pvt. Friederich Spies Co 3, Fusileer Regiment Erbrinz In a message dated 6/30/2011 9:11:16 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: -----Original Message----- From: Bob Brooks <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 8:22 AM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: [AMREV-HESSIANS] HETRINA Carol -- > Dear Group, I don't understand how to access the HETRINA. Can anyone > help > me? I am afraid you have to do it the old fashioned way -- find a library which has a complete set. The formal title is: _Hessische Truppen im Amerikanischen Unabhängigkeitskrieg (HETRINA) Index nach Familiennamen_ with the editors listed as Inge Auerbach & Otto Fröhlich. Literal translation of the title is: "Hessian Troops in the American Independencewar (HETRINA) Index by Familynames" It comprises six volumes with vol 6 in two parts and remains under copyright protection. The first 5 volumes were published with paper covers in the 1970s and vol 6 in the 1980s. I believe the entire set was reprinted in the last decade and is still available for purchase at the arichives in Marburg, Germany, at roughly 30 Euros per volume. HETRINA is not the "holy grail" as it merely is a computer listing of abstracts from the original records, key punched onto the obsolete 80 column IBM keypunch cards (state-of-the-art technology in the 1960s when the program was started) then processed through a card sorter, then run again through a mainframe which printed out an IBM formated 125 column report. HETRINA is merely a photoreduced copy of that computer printout with a few pages of introduction, part in German, part in Englsih. The printout may not include all the information in the original record (and may include material NOT in the original record as the compliers manipulated some data in order to get the cards to sort as desired) but there is adequate (coded) citation to the original records, explained in the introduction. In order to keep the "event codes" rememberable, frequently two near-duplicate cards were prepared with only the event code changed. For example, an event where a soldier deserted [code 12] from POW status [code 11] would have duplicate cards/lines in HETRINA. Bob Brooks PLEASE CHECK ALL OF YOUR SUBJECTS! ~~~~~~~~~ FOUNDER: John H. Merz 1924-2006 Created 1998 ~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ADMINISTRATOR<Kerri> [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message PLEASE CHECK ALL OF YOUR SUBJECTS! ~~~~~~~~~ FOUNDER: John H. Merz 1924-2006 Created 1998 ~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ADMINISTRATOR<Kerri> [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message