=snip= > I am interested in his reference to the ship 'Juliana'; which appears > to be called the 'Whitby' by historians; first prison ship in NYC. One is at risk attempting to define historical "firsts" -- especially without a clearcut definition of the event being defined. Rev War prisoners of war where held on ships by both sides, long before specific ships were called "prison ships." I am not an expert on the subject and heartly would encourage anyone undertakening a scholarly study on the subject. Below follow some gleanings from: Wm Bell Clarrk et al., eds., _Naval Documents of the American Revolution_ 10 volumes to date (Washington DC: GPO, 1964- ) re: the two vessels: WHITBY, troop transport: Transported four companies of the 17th Regt of Foot from Cork, Ireland, to Portsmouth UK, from whence she sailed 8 Sep 1775 under convoy of HMS PHOENIX and arrived at Nantasket Roads [Boston] on 9 Nov 1775, then moved to Boston and disembarked troops. She next loaded part of a detachment of 175 Marines and sailed 30 Dec 1775 to join convoy with HMS SCARBOROUGH at Nantasket Roads, from whence she sailed 5 Jan 1776 and arrived at Savannah GA about 12 Feb 1776. The Marines went along to 'strong-arm' the Georgians into supplying rice for the amry then garrisoned in Boston an on 2 Mar 1776 there was an altercation between the British and Americans which was put down. On 30 Mar 1776 the convoy departed, heading for Boston (evacuated 2 weeks earlier). The next record found is petition dated "'Whitby' Prison Ship, N York, 9th Decr 1776" which says "... There are more than two Hundred and fifty prisoners of us on board this Ship ... all Crouded promiscuously togeather, without Distinction or Respect, to person, rank or color...." The petition suggests that all were American naval personnel. This is consistent with other sources wherein naval and merchant mariners were accounted for and exchanged independent to army POWs. So where was the 'Whitby' between 30 Mar 1776 (leaving Savannah) and 9 Dec 1776 when she is in New York harbor, chocker-block full of naval POWs? I appears she when past New York as on the morning of 11 April 1776 while alongside Long Island, when the fog lifted about 6 AM, the 'Whitby' was out of sight. HMS SCARBOROUGH & the transport 'Symmetry' both went into Rhode Island Roads for a few days; however, there is no mention of the 'Whitby' so I suspect she continued northwardly and if didn't already know about the evacuation of Boston, learned of it in time to progress unobstructed to Halifax where she woiuld have found the fleet recently arrived from Boston. HMS SCARBOROUGH arrived at Halifax on 21 May 1776. The fleet containing MGen Sir Wm. Howe's army sailed from Halifax on 10 June 1776 {If memory serves, Howe's orderly book lists those transports assigned to carry the army units). Howe reached New York on 29 June with the transports staggering in a few days later. JULIANA, troop transport, William Johnson, master: [SPECULATION: Hired at Milford Haven by Navy Board ca. 1 Dec 1775, then sent to Cork under Lt Thomas Tonken to load troops for North America] When HMS BRISTOL arrived at Cork on 6 Jan 1776, Lt Tonken's Division of Transports [including JULIANA] had already embarked troops. The Convoy under HMS BRISTOL departed Cork on 12 Feb 1776 for the Carolinas, arriving 3 May 1776 at Cape Fear River [NC] where the troops were disembarked [one of the other transports in Tonken's group had a breakout of small pox enroute and all suffered from the long voyage]. They re-embarked and on 30 May 1776 crossed the bar to form for the attempt to capture Charlestown SC. Sailing 31 May, they arrived off Charlestown bar on 4 June but I do not know whether she crossed the bar into Five Fathom Hole on 7 June [most transports did] or whether she still remained outside the bar when the gale hit. After the attack failed but before 20 July 1776 all had sailed for New York where they arrived the morning of 1 August 1776 I feel confident that I have the correct 'Juliana' identified above. She may be identical to the ship 'Juliana' Capt. Montgomery who brought NY Gov. Wm Tyron to NYC as a passenger from London. Arriving 24 June 1775, she should have been back in England a the same time "your" 'Julianna' seems to have been hired. There was aother vessel named 'Juliana' in the theatre in the rigt time period. Walter Burke commanded a small, 60 ton, brig named 'Juliana' from Ireland which 1 Oct 1775 cleared at Annapolis from Galway with a cargo of "32 servants" for Thomas Ewing in Baltimore. Others are recorded but they are after the date of your interest COMMENTS: Both the 'Whitby' and the 'Juliana' are present in New York harbor at the beginning of October 1776. Both were transport ships chartered by the Navy Board and by their presence were not among the approximately 200 empty transports sent back to the UK. I do not know why they were chosen as prison ships over other transports. As they don't show up on any official naval accounting lists, I ASSUME that they remained as hired vessels. In comparison the transport "Dutchess of Russia" (over 300 tons) was conscribed, then purchased by the British navy and converted into HMS VIGILANT which playyed a prominent role in the Philadelphia (1777-78) and Savannah (1778-1780) campaigns. Hope this helps Bob Brooks, retired downeast on the coast of Maine

Greetings Bob, Thank you 'very much' for the time taken for your gleanings, comments and data on the Whitby and Juliana. The applicant is part of a group of those men noted as having Captain Alexander McDonald as his enlisting officer, with a date of '3 Sep 1776'. I am hopeful that the papers of Captain Alexander McDonald will shed more light on the circumstances. BTW - the applicant was refused because they could not find any of his named buddies. Your most humble ..... Jan

Bob, or anyone: Do you know how to find the make-up of Gen. Howe's army - Regiments, etc.? appears she when past New York as on the morning of 11 April 1776 while alongside Long Island, when the fog lifted about 6 AM, the 'Whitby' was out of sight. HMS SCARBOROUGH & the transport 'Symmetry' both went into Rhode Island Roads for a few days; however, there is no mention of the 'Whitby' so I suspect she continued northwardly and if didn't already know about the evacuation of Boston, learned of it in time to progress unobstructed to Halifax where she woiuld have found the fleet recently arrived from Boston. HMS SCARBOROUGH arrived at Halifax on 21 May 1776. The fleet containing MGen Sir Wm. Howe's army sailed from Halifax on 10 June 1776 {If memory serves, Howe's orderly book lists those transports assigned to carry the army units). Howe reached New York on 29 June with the transports staggering in a few days later. ----- Original Message ----- From: "RC Brooks" <rcbrooks@acadia.net> To: <AMERICAN-REVOLUTION-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 2:44 PM Subject: Re: [A-REV] Sloop Lady Juliana alias Whitby 1776??? > =snip= > > I am interested in his reference to the ship 'Juliana'; which appears > > to be called the 'Whitby' by historians; first prison ship in NYC. > > One is at risk attempting to define historical "firsts" -- especially > without a clearcut definition of the event being defined. > > Rev War prisoners of war where held on ships by both sides, long before > specific ships were called "prison ships." I am not an expert on the > subject and heartly would encourage anyone undertakening a scholarly study > on the subject. Below follow some gleanings from: Wm Bell Clarrk et al., > eds., _Naval Documents of the American Revolution_ 10 volumes to date > (Washington DC: GPO, 1964- ) re: the two vessels: > > WHITBY, troop transport: > > Transported four companies of the 17th Regt of Foot from Cork, Ireland, to > Portsmouth UK, from whence she sailed 8 Sep 1775 under convoy of HMS PHOENIX > and arrived at Nantasket Roads [Boston] on 9 Nov 1775, then moved to Boston > and disembarked troops. She next loaded part of a detachment of 175 Marines > and sailed 30 Dec 1775 to join convoy with HMS SCARBOROUGH at Nantasket > Roads, from whence she sailed 5 Jan 1776 and arrived at Savannah GA about 12 > Feb 1776. The Marines went along to 'strong-arm' the Georgians into > supplying rice for the amry then garrisoned in Boston an on 2 Mar 1776 there > was an altercation between the British and Americans which was put down. On > 30 Mar 1776 the convoy departed, heading for Boston (evacuated 2 weeks > earlier). > > The next record found is petition dated "'Whitby' Prison Ship, N York, 9th > Decr 1776" which says "... There are more than two Hundred and fifty > prisoners of us on board this Ship ... all Crouded promiscuously togeather, > without Distinction or Respect, to person, rank or color...." The petition > suggests that all were American naval personnel. This is consistent with > other sources wherein naval and merchant mariners were accounted for and > exchanged independent to army POWs. > > So where was the 'Whitby' between 30 Mar 1776 (leaving Savannah) and 9 Dec > 1776 when she is in New York harbor, chocker-block full of naval POWs? > > I appears she when past New York as on the morning of 11 April 1776 while > alongside Long Island, when the fog lifted about 6 AM, the 'Whitby' was out > of sight. HMS SCARBOROUGH & the transport 'Symmetry' both went into Rhode > Island Roads for a few days; however, there is no mention of the 'Whitby' so > I suspect she continued northwardly and if didn't already know about the > evacuation of Boston, learned of it in time to progress unobstructed to > Halifax where she woiuld have found the fleet recently arrived from Boston. > HMS SCARBOROUGH arrived at Halifax on 21 May 1776. The fleet containing > MGen Sir Wm. Howe's army sailed from Halifax on 10 June 1776 {If memory > serves, Howe's orderly book lists those transports assigned to carry the > army units). Howe reached New York on 29 June with the transports > staggering in a few days later. > > JULIANA, troop transport, William Johnson, master: > > [SPECULATION: Hired at Milford Haven by Navy Board ca. 1 Dec 1775, then > sent to Cork under Lt Thomas Tonken to load troops for North America] When > HMS BRISTOL arrived at Cork on 6 Jan 1776, Lt Tonken's Division of > Transports [including JULIANA] had already embarked troops. The Convoy > under HMS BRISTOL departed Cork on 12 Feb 1776 for the Carolinas, arriving 3 > May 1776 at Cape Fear River [NC] where the troops were disembarked [one of > the other transports in Tonken's group had a breakout of small pox enroute > and all suffered from the long voyage]. They re-embarked and on 30 May 1776 > crossed the bar to form for the attempt to capture Charlestown SC. Sailing > 31 May, they arrived off Charlestown bar on 4 June but I do not know whether > she crossed the bar into Five Fathom Hole on 7 June [most transports did] or > whether she still remained outside the bar when the gale hit. After the > attack failed but before 20 July 1776 all had sailed for New York where they > arrived the morning of 1 August 1776 > > I feel confident that I have the correct 'Juliana' identified above. She > may be identical to the ship 'Juliana' Capt. Montgomery who brought NY Gov. > Wm Tyron to NYC as a passenger from London. Arriving 24 June 1775, she > should have been back in England a the same time "your" 'Julianna' seems to > have been hired. > > There was aother vessel named 'Juliana' in the theatre in the rigt time > period. Walter Burke commanded a small, 60 ton, brig named 'Juliana' from > Ireland which 1 Oct 1775 cleared at Annapolis from Galway with a cargo of > "32 servants" for Thomas Ewing in Baltimore. Others are recorded but they > are after the date of your interest > > COMMENTS: > > Both the 'Whitby' and the 'Juliana' are present in New York harbor at the > beginning of October 1776. Both were transport ships chartered by the Navy > Board and by their presence were not among the approximately 200 empty > transports sent back to the UK. I do not know why they were chosen as > prison ships over other transports. As they don't show up on any official > naval accounting lists, I ASSUME that they remained as hired vessels. In > comparison the transport "Dutchess of Russia" (over 300 tons) was > conscribed, then purchased by the British navy and converted into HMS > VIGILANT which playyed a prominent role in the Philadelphia (1777-78) and > Savannah (1778-1780) campaigns. > > Hope this helps > Bob Brooks, retired downeast on the coast of Maine > > > ==== AMERICAN-REVOLUTION Mailing List ==== > > > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 > Source for Family History Online. Go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB >