Hello I do much Civil War reenacting and come across other reenactors in different eras. I have also noticed from my own experiance that the Weapons even though the US army approved a specific weapon for standard use many units still used out of date weapons. The Mexican war had many weapons both Flint lock and the "new" 1842 Springfield 69 cal smooth bore cap musket. This is the model that the unit I reenact in and an ancestor of mine served in used. You are looking at 20 years later a very out of date weapon. So I would be safe to say that While the units may have used differing weapons the Regulars used the same basically. Just remember that the British did not allow the colonies to mass product weapons for war or stockades. So the weapons of the Revelution where vast and very different in nature. I am sorry I don't have much to document but that is what I can gleen off of my reenactment crowds. dan charles s brack jr wrote: > I'm curious as to when we started having a standard weapon issue--when all > were issued the same basic weapon. Let's start at the company level, where > there might be the probablility of having a common issue. > > . Were there any large-scale arms manufacturers in the lat 1700s-early > 1800s? > > thanks, Charles > > ==== AMERICAN-REVOLUTION Mailing List ==== > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 -- *****************Thank you for reading this email****************** Please visit my genealogy site for all of my family members descendants and ancestors alike. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~geyerseybold/ Geyer family genealogy sites are a part of Roots Excavation inc. Roots Excavation inc. is pleased to bring you - Albin-l@rootsweb.com Dreher-l@rootsweb.com Leffler-l@rootsweb.com Leitzel-l@rootsweb.com Sagle-l@rootsweb.com Shaull-l@rootsweb.com Seiders-l@rootsweb.com -email forums that allows you to connect farther. - Thanks Yours, Daniel Geyer Esq.

Once again this summer their will be ample opportunity to live our history in the Hudsona and Mohawk Valleys of New York and in neighboring Vermont (plus the opening event just on the other side of the Connecticut River in New Hampshire). Here's the list of events taken from "The Battlements", the quarterly newsletter of the Friends of Saratoga Battlefield: A series of events celebrating the 225th Anniversary of the invasion of the Champlain, Mohawk and Hudson Valleys in 1777 - THE NORTHERN CAMPAIGN - Come and witness living history as the campaign winds it's way to the Battles of Saratoga, considered the turning point of the Ameri-can Revolution and the most decisive battle of the past millennium. This unforgettable story will be retold through re-enactments and special events; many on the original sites where they oc-curred, during the spring, summer and fall of 2002. (For more information: David Bernier, Sr., 178 Glendale Rd, Southampton, MA 01073 (413) 527-4470 Web site http://www.thenortherncampaign.org June 1-2, Fort #4-Charleston, NH June 15-16 Ethan Allen Days-Sunderland, VT June 22-23 "Crown Point"-Crown Point, NY July 5-7 "Battle of Hubbardton"-Hubbardton, VT July 9-14 18th Century Children's Discovery Center, Saratoga County Fair-Ballston Spa, NY July 13-14 "Battle of Fort Anne"- Fort Anne, NY July 27-28 "Soldiers on the Mount, Mount Independence"- Orwell, VT August 3-5 "Siege of Fort Stanwix! Battle of Oriskany"-Rome, NY August 10-12 Battle of the Flockey, Old Stone Fort Museum-Schoharie, NY August 16-18 "Battle of Bennington"- Bennington, VT September 7-8 "Annual Revolutionary War Encampment! Brown's Raid, Ft. Ticonderoga"- Ft. Ticonderoga, N.Y. September 27- 29 "225th Remberance of the Battles of Saratoga, Saratoga National Historical Park"- Stillwater, NY October 5-6 "West Point- Ft Montgomery"- Ft Montgomery, NY October 12-13 "Second Battle of Saratoga" -Saratoga, NY (Old Saratoga, now Schuylerville, NOT Saratoga Springs) October 13 "Corking the Bottle at Stark's Knob"- Northumberland, NY October 19th "Surrender March of Burgoyne" - Saratoga, NY October 19-20 "Burning of Kingston" -Kingston, NY October 20th "General Burgoyne is a Prisoner at the Schuyler Mansion," at Schuyler Mansion, Albany, N.Y. PARTICIPATING ORGANIZATIONS; Saratoga National Historical Park, Hubbardton Historical Society, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation, Manchester & the Mountains Regional Chamber of Commerce, Burning of the Valleys Military Association, The British Brigade, The Brigade of the American Revolution, Schuyler's Canal Park Visitors Center, Ft Ticonderoga, Mt. Independence Coalition, NY State Office of Parks Rec. & Historical Preservation, Washington County Historical Society. The Living History Assoc., - Revolutionary War Dept., City of Kingston, NY, Saratoga County Board of Supervisors, NY State Museum, The Ft. at Lock # 4, Ft Anne Historical Society, Center for Heritage Education & Tourism, Ct Colony Military Assoc.. Northern Dept of the Conti-nental Line, Adirondack Regional Chambers of commerce. Mohawk Valley Heritage Corridor Bill Carr Town of Malta Saratoga County, NY

I'm curious as to when we started having a standard weapon issue--when all were issued the same basic weapon. Let's start at the company level, where there might be the probablility of having a common issue. . Were there any large-scale arms manufacturers in the lat 1700s-early 1800s? thanks, Charles

A concern for accurate teaching of the history of the F&I War, the American Revolution, and the War of 1812 is on-topic for this list, as are, within reason, what we can do about it. Please refrain from any emphasis on modern political partisanship. But the discussion is a good one. What can individuals do in their own community to help history come alive for kids? I work several days each month in a Rev War National Park. I get to see people "doing it right" in a number of different ways. The ones I'd be concerned about are the ones we *don't* see coming into places like the parks. John Robertson List manager American-Revolution-L

I am curious to know if there has been any research done revealing the proportion of Rev. War participants on the Patriot side who supplied their own weapons as opposed to having been issued one expressly for military service. Tom California

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?021+sum+HB1371 Check out this web site to see what our Virginia General Assembly is up to. Can you believe that we would have to pass an Act of Assembly to require this? Pamela Myer Sackett Manassas, VA

John: You ask: "...What can individuals do in their own community to help history come alive for kids?..." Darn good question. Here's an article from our latest SAR chapter newsletter: Troop 1776 was selected as the 2001"Troop of the Year" for the Five Nations District, which covers Moreno Valley and consists of 24 Boy Scout Troops. The troop is going strong and recently re-chartered with 32 Scouts Scoutmaster Allen Dickenson was also chosen to receive the Boy Scouts of America's prestigious "Silver Beaver" award, which is the highest award a Council can bestow. The Inland Empire Council covers all of San Bernardino and Riverside Counties. Only 6 Silver Beaver awards were presented in this council. Cub Scout Pack 1776 was chartered last year with 7 boys and five adults. They are going strong and re-chartered with 26 boys and 14 active adults. Future Riverside SAR member and Eagle Scout Robert Melton of Troop 210 was recently awarded the Boy Scouts of America's "Medal of Merit" for lifesaving actions. The "Medal of Merit" is a National honor and is the 3rd highest award for lifesaving action the Boy Scouts can bestow upon an individual. Robert saved his sister's life when she suffered a severe asthma attack which caused her to stop breathing. He also was the recipient of the Boy Scouts Order of the Arrow's Vigil Honor, one of 12 recipients in the Inland Empire Council. Robert is also active in the United States Air Force Junior ROTC unit at Canyon Springs High School. He is the Group Commander, holding the rank of Cadet Lieutenant Colonel. He recently received the Air Force Association Award and the Distinguished Cadet Award. He is anxiously awaiting his 18th birthday in March, when he will be eligible for SAR membership Needless to say, we sponsor Troop and Pack "1776" Might work for Girl Scouts as well. Any takers? -- For Revolutionary War information on the Internet, your first choice should be AMERICANREVOLUTION.ORG

While the French had established government arsenals to turn out weapons to an approved pattern, the British system relied entirely upon commercial manufacturing facilities. Having decided upon a new weapon, the Board of Ordnance would then have a specimen made by a gunmaker, and his specimen would then become the 'Sealed Pattern' by virtue of having attached to it a linen label which bore, in wax, the seal of the Board. This sealed pattern was then deposited with the Board and was available for contractors to examine, so that they could see what they were letting themselves in for. It also acted as the comparative check in that any weapon delivered to the Army could be taken and compared with the Sealed Pattern Arm. Any divergence from the pattern could result in the weapon being refused or, if it was a relatively minor divergence, the price being 'abated', that is reduced by a percentage reflecting the degree of non-compliance with the pattern. This system of 'Sealed Patterns' survives in British service to this day, and covers everything from cap-badges to cannon; for small arms there is still the 'Pattern Room' at the Royal Small Arms Factory, Enfield Lock, in which all the sealed patterns are deposited and stored. Having sealed the design, the Board of Ordnance would then negotiate contracts with various manufacturers for parts of the firearm - not for the whole weapon, for the gun trade in England did not work that way. Specialists in lock-making, stock-making, barrel-making and furniture-making all worked separately. Their products went to a 'stocker', who then assembled and finished the complete weapon. This was the system for the making of commercial firearms, and since these were the only facilities available, the same system had perforce to apply to the manufacture of military arms. Consequently the Board issued contracts for locks, barrels, furniture (the various fittings such as butt plates, trigger-guards, barrel bands, ramrods and so forth) and stock wood in sufficient amounts to make up the desired quantity of arms - a figure which generally reflected the amount of money the Board had available, and not necessarily the military or political considerations of the time. The contractors would then deliver their completed items to either a designated store depot or to the central depot, the Tower of London, where the incoming items were all examined, checked against the scaled pattern, and either accepted or rejected. From there batches of components sufficient to make up a specific number of weapons were sent out to contractors known as 'Stockers and setters-up' generally located in London close to the Tower, where the weapons were then delivered to the Tower of London armories, checked, proved, and placed in store against the time they were needed. One thing will be obvious from this description of the system is that there will be inevitable minor differences between weapons of nominally the same pattern. Even working from the Sealed Pattern and the drawings furnished by the Board of Ordnance, small differences in dimensions occurred from job to job, and each maker was bound so have his own idiosyncracies which reflected themselves in the constructional details of his work. So that while any one weapon was basically the same, minor differences between individual guns could and did occur, and these must be accepted as a result of the system and not adduced as differences in pattern. A further source of variation in weapons lies in the system of returning firearms to the Tower from time to time for inspection, refurbishing and repair, during which components which were worn could be replaced, sometimes with items of a newer or improved pattern, leading to some odd combinations of components in a seemingly standard weapon. This can lead to difficulty when a student is attempting to place a date on some weapon, basing his assumptions on some feature of the lock or furniture. Until 1764 locks were stamped with the date of acceptance, which is reasonably accurate, although subsequent change of lock can throw this system adrift; after 1764 it is practically impossible to be more accurate than the nearest ten years or so, and attempts to tie a weapon down to a particular year are misplaced, to say the least. The standard British Army firearm of the period was the Brown Bess or Long Land Service Musket. Introduced during the reign of Queen Anne (1702-14), its adoption has been attributed to the urgings of the Duke of Marlborough, but it seems to have taken some time to get into production after being officially approved for service, since the earliest dated specimens known are marked I 1720. The origin of the nickname is shrouded in mystery; indeed, there is doubt as to when the expression was first used. It has been suggested that 'Brown' is due to the walnut stock, earlier service weapons having had the stock painted black. A more likely explanation is that it comes from the brown color of the steelwork, due to a chemical treatment given as a rust preventive measure. As to 'Bess', some historians have tried to extrapolate this back to tie it with Good Queen Bess herself, which is stretching things a little far; the good lady had been dead for over a hundred years before the weapon was adopted. More likely the name allied itself to 'Brown' by alliteration's artful aid; 'Brown Phyllis' or 'Brown Sophia' would have smacked of the ridiculous, but 'Brown Bess' has that ring of companionability which in later years produced 'Long Tom', 'Big Bertha' and the Grease Gun. The earliest standard carbine in British service, the Light Dragoon Carbine, was little more than a Short Land Service Musket under a different name. This was replaced in a few years by another weapon, also called the Light Dragoon Carbine, which had a 36-inch barrel and carried one feature which is generally accepted as identifying cavalry carbinesa 'sling bar' on the left side of the stock, opposite the lock. This sling bar was used, as its name implies, to anchor the sling in such a fashion that it tightened under the weapon's weight and thus was less likely to allow the carbine to swing about and get in the rider's way. It became a notable feature of most cavalry carbines for many years, certainly until the practice of carrying long arms in saddle-buckets took over. Another model is identified as the Artillery and Highlander's Carbine. Issued in 1757, this has a barrel Of full 42inch length and generally resembles a full sized musket, but it can be distinguished from the issue muskets of the time by its generally lower standard of manufacture. It has been suggested that as the artillery were rarely called upon to fire shoulder arms and the Highland regiments were prone to get to grips with the enemy using a broadsword, a lower quality weapon was perfectly satisfactory for them. A rare case of foot soldiers being issued with a carbine was in the case of the light infantry companies. From 1770 onwards they were issued with the Light Infantry Carbine - though just to confuse matters it was sometimes referred to as the Light Infantry Fusil-of .67 calibre. This, though, was as far as it went; the length of the barrel was still 42 inches. The stock was thinned down slightly and some minor changes made to the furniture, so that the weight came out at just over seven pounds, which was a worthwhile saving. Another version had a .65-inch bore and appears generally to be little changed from the Short Land Service Musket, though the weight had been reduced to eight pounds. A more drastic redesign was the 'Elliott' carbine, officially introduced in 1773 and produced in Ireland. This was of the usual carbine calibre, .65 inch, but was drastically shortened, the barrel being only 28 inches long and the weight just over six pounds. This was issued to some light cavalry units; one of these was the 17th Light Dragoons, and a number of Elliott carbines accompanied them to America. The first models, designed by General Elliott as a private venture for his 15th Light Dragoons in about 176o, were stocked to the muzzle and specimens often have 'GEN. ELLIOTT'S DRAGOONS' engraved on the barrel. After gaining official acceptance in 1773 a second version was produced, recognizable by having a peculiar fore-end cap and a ramrod with a gracefully shaped handle. The stock finished some distance short of the muzzle, and the ramrod clipped into the fore-end cap by a groove cut beneath the ramrod handle. Finally, in this review of the shorter long arms, it would be unfair to miss out a couple of the more outlandish developments. The first, which stemmed indirectly from the War of Independence, was due to General Burgoyne. After his defeat at Saratoga he returned to England to be quizzed by Parliament on the affair; having satisfied them as to his lack of blame he was appointed to command of the 23rd Light Dragoons. He forthwith designed, and persuaded the Board of Ordnance to approve, a 'musketoon for cavalry troops'. Due to its bell-mouthed barrel it soon got the name of 'Burgoyne's Blunderbuss,, though it was not intended as any sort of scatter-gun. It was, in fact, an extremely short carbine, with a barrel only 16 inches long, the bore being the standard .65 inch. One hundred of these weapons were made and issued to Burgoyne's regiment, but it is doubtful that any managed to cross the Atlantic before the war ended. While Burgoyne was gently ridiculed for this design at the time , he seems to have had the right idea. A weapon as short and handy as this would be a far better proposition for mounted troops than the usual pattern of carbine or musket. But the experiment seems not to have been given much attention by the Board of Ordnance, and the musketoons were eventually replaced by standard patterns of carbine and disposed of; few exist today. The other out-of-the-way weapon is rather better known; the Nock Volley Gun. Although the name of Nock is always associated with it, it was actually the invention of one James Wilson, and he offered his design of sevenbarrelled gun to the Board of Ordnance in 1779. Wilson probably had the American campaign in mind when he offered the weapon, but the Board felt there was little use for such a weapon in land service and passed it to the Board of Admiralty for their observations. The Navy were impressed, doubtless due to their contemporary tactical concept of getting as close to the enemy as possible and then letting fly with all the firepower available, a theory into which the volley gun fitted quite nicely. Henry Nock made his entry on the scene by virtue of being one of the premier gunmakers of the day. He was asked by the Navy to make up some specimens of the Wilson design for trial, and he produced a number of rifled models. These passed their trials well, and contracts were placed forthwith with Nock for a supply of guns; early models were still rifled, though in later years smooth-bored versions were issued, since they were cheaper to make and just as effective. It will be appreciated that instead of the usual piecemeal system of contracting the Navy gave Nock the whole weapon to build - since these had to be fairly precisely constructed. Nock, of course, took care to engrave his name on every one of them, which is why they have gone down in history as Nock guns. The name of Wilson is almost forgotten. The volley gun consisted of one central barrel surrounded by another six. The normal flintlock mechanism was used to fire the central barrel, and from the chamber of this barrel radial vents passed to the chambers of the surrounding barrels. Thus, on pulling the trigger all seven barrels fired virtually at once, which must have been a chastening experience for the man holding the thing, since each barrel was -52 calibre. Two batches of guns appear to have been produced, the first dating from 1779 and consisting Of 500 guns, and the second, begun in 1787, of only 1 00. There are some minor differences in the lock mechanism and the appearance of the furniture between the two models, but in basic construction they remained the same, using 20-inch barrels. Brown Bess's traditional adversary throughout its career was, of course, the French service musket, the 'Fusil d'Infanterie', a weapon which came in a wide variety of modifications and sub-types. Between 1717, the year of its introduction, and 1777, there were ten different models of infantry musket, plus another 17 variations for use by officers, artillery or cavalry. It is generally called the 'Charleville' musket, from the arsenal at Charleville which produced large numbers, but in fact Charleville did not begin manufacture until the advent of the Model Of 1763, and many other arsenals, such as Maubeuge, St. Etienne and Versailles were also concerned with manufacturing the weapon. The French musket was slightly lighter than the British, due largely to using a .69 calibre barrel of rather thinner section, together with a lighter and more graceful stock. Originally the barrel was secured to the stock by pins, but the 1728 model introduced barrel bands instead of pins; this allowed the stock to be made even lighter until the arm weighed about 9 3/4 pounds; 59 3/4 inches long, with a 34 inch barrel , it fired a ball weighing about 450 444 grains. While the Brown Bess and the Charleville were the primary smoothbore muskets of the period, a few others found their way to America. One such was the enormous .80 calibre Prussian Musket, some of which appeared in the hands of the Hessians and from there found their way to the American side. Five feet in length, with a 43-inch barrel, it weighed slightly under eleven pounds. There were also a number of Dutch muskets, purchased by the British for use by Hessian and Brunswick units during a period of shortage of their own Brown Bess Weapons, and numbers of these have survived in America; they differ in details from standard military weapons of the day but most can be identified by British official stampings. Finally, of course, there were enormous quantities of 'Trade Pattern' muskets owned by settlers as their personal arms and purchased from all sorts of sources, and a tabulation of all the variations on this theme would be impossible. But once an American Army began to be raised in earnest, a standard pattern of musket was imperative. It mattered little to a New England farmer if his musket happened to have a bore of .63 or .72 or some other odd calibre, governed entirely by the boring bit which happened to be handy when the gunsmith made the weapon. The farmer made his own bullets in a mould provided by the same gunsmith, and his expenditure of ammunition was negligible compared to his ability to mould more during his non-hunting periods. The provision of ammunition for a military force however, with the expenditure to be expected in battle, was not something which could be left to the individual, and a standardized calibre and bullet was an economic necessity. In July 1775, therefore, Congress passed resolutions to set standards for the muskets to be provided by the various Committees of Safety, underlining their demands by a further resolution passed in November which said, in part, 'that it be recommended to the Colonies that they set and keep their gunsmiths at work to manufacture good firelocks with bayonets. Each firelock to be made with a good bridle lock, of three-quarter-inch bore and of good substance to the breech. The barrel to be three feet eight inches in length, the bayonet to be eighteen inches in the blade, with a steel ramrod . . . the price to be fixed by the Assembly or Convention or Committee of Safety of each Colony.' -- For Revolutionary War information on the Internet, your first choice should be AMERICANREVOLUTION.ORG

The goal of the teacher is to instill a desire to learn more than what he/she is presenting in the classroom. Looking back on my own acquired interest in history, I seem to recall that I began loving history at a young age. Much of what I have learned from that time to the present wasn't provided entirely in the classroom. But, my teachers piqued my interest and I took the initiative to borrow books from the library to learn more. Now, with the Internet, a history teacher can direct his/her students to so many more resources than I once had. I hope our teachers today will instill in our students the desire to become life-time learners. I learn something new almost everyday. And, I certainly don't know all that I'd like to know about history. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him to fish and he will eat forever. Or something like that. <grin> Lonny J. Watro

Am I the only one disturbed by all the hisorical revisionism that seems to be going around ? Does it strike anyone else there might be a deeper agenda going on ? ~malinda > The goal of the teacher is to instill a desire to learn more than what > he/she is presenting in the classroom. Looking back on my own acquired > interest in history, I seem to recall that I began loving history at a young > age. Much of what I have learned from that time to the present wasn't > provided entirely in the classroom. But, my teachers piqued my interest and > I took the initiative to borrow books from the library to learn more. Now, > with the Internet, a history teacher can direct his/her students to so many > more resources than I once had.

Bravo, Pamela For the record, my kids attend public school in Prince William County Virginia and they DO NOT get "President's" Day off, despite the fact that I do "lobby" the school board to reconsider each year. Seems the day just doesn't fit in well with the grading periods and the time off that teachers need to complete grades. So much for live in the Old Dominion, "Home of Presidents." Students county-wide have yet to pass the history Standards of Learning. As a native of Trenton, NJ, where I was raised to call George Washington one of our nation's Founding Fathers, (actually my own father considered him a candidate for sainthood) I always take my kids out of school that Monday. Together we tour a historic 18th century site either in NJ, or VA. In the interim, I enjoy the collection of George Washington memorabilia I inherited from my father. Pamela Myer Sackett Chairman, Friends of Brentsville Courthouse Historic Centre, INc. www.brentsville.com _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

I have been reading with passing interest the "no founding fathers" discussion. I know they are best sellers (and many best sellers fail the test of qualit), but you MUST read the two books which illuminate important founding fathers: "John Adams" and "Founding Brothers" I have never been much on history, but these books, I call them biographical history, are simply awesome. You feel as if you were there, physically and inside their thinking! With respect to schooling, the Adams book could be used as a history book, a biography and as a "use of English language" book. The writings of John and Abigail Adams are some of the most elegant English prose I've been privileged to read in decades! Sincerely, ================================ Don Dickason Searching for family names: Dickason, Hamilton, Cadwal(l)ader, Wisely, Steinberg, Borchward(t), Biesterfeld(t), Blair

For the record, my kids attend public school in Prince William County Virginia and they DO NOT get "President's" Day off, despite the fact that I do "lobby" the school board to reconsider each year. Seems the day just doesn't fit in well with the grading periods and the time off that teachers need to complete grades. So much for live in the Old Dominion, "Home of Presidents." Students county-wide have yet to pass the history Standards of Learning. As a native of Trenton, NJ, where I was raised to call George Washington one of our nation's Founding Fathers, (actually my own father considered him a candidate for sainthood) I always take my kids out of school that Monday. Together we tour a historic 18th century site either in NJ, or VA. In the interim, I enjoy the collection of George Washington memorabilia I inherited from my father. Pamela Myer Sackett Chairman, Friends of Brentsville Courthouse Historic Centre, INc. www.brentsville.com -----Original Message----- From: James L. Stokes [mailto:jlstokes@redrose.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 1:19 AM To: AMERICAN-REVOLUTION-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [A-REV] No Founding Fathers This article is a hack political piece that isn't even internally consistant. The headlines tell us the founding fathers won't be taught while the body of the text indicates, of course they will be taught, they just aren't part of the guidelines, its assumed the schools will automatically teach about Washington, Jefferson and my favorite founding father, Ben Franklin. I'm always cautious about references to "political correctness", they are almost always conservative and often distorted. One shouldn't expect any better from the Washington Times, a conservative newspaper. I expect if the state guidelines forced them to teach about Washington, Jefferson and Franklin then the Washington Times would be complaining about the loss of local control of the schools. Jim Ed St.Germain wrote: > > No Founding Fathers? That's our new history, by Ellen Sorokin > THE WASHINGTON TIMES > > Published 1/28/2002 > > George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin are not > included in the revised version of the New Jersey Department of > Education history standards - a move some critics view as political > correctness at its worst. > > The Pilgrims and the Mayflower also are excluded, as well as the word > "war," which has been replaced with "conflict" in lessons about the > early settlers, colonization and expansion. > > Also gone are most references to the inhumane treatment many American > soldiers endured in wars overseas during the 20th century. However, the > standards specifically note that students should identify slavery, the > Holocaust and modern Iraq as examples "in which people have behaved in > cruel and inhumane ways." > > The latest revisions to the state standards have disappointed educators > across the country, who said the board's exclusion of the Founding > Fathers' names is "political correctness at the end of the nth degree." > > "This is what you call a historical irresponsibility," said David Saxe, > a Penn State University education professor who reviews state history > standards nationwide for the Thomas B. Fordham Foundation in Washington. > The foundation gave the New Jersey history standards a failing grade the > last time it reviewed them. > > New Jersey's current history standards, which also exclude most > historical figures, were approved in 1996. Those standards were revised > earlier this month and have not yet been approved by the state. > > State school officials argue they do not need to list all the well-known > historical figures ? like other states' history or social studies > standards do ? because teachers will know they have to talk about the > country's first president and the other Founding Fathers when the lesson > on American history comes up. > > "It's pretty obvious what needs to be taught," said Jay Doolan, the > acting assistant commissioner of the state's Division of Academic and > Career Standards. > > State educators said the standards do include a requirement that > students "recognize the names of some major figures in American history" > - a generalization that Mr. Saxe said is a "cop out." > > "It's unimaginable to us why teachers wouldn't teach students about > George Washington when they talk about the new nation," Mr. Doolan said. > "It's also hard to imagine that when our students learn about > Thanksgiving, that they won't learn about the Pilgrims, who they were > and why they came here. ... We don't intentionally exclude certain > names. But how long should the list of names be? Who do we include or > not include?" > > Some states like Virginia and Indiana also don't include the Pilgrims in > their standards. In some cases, the Pilgrims are referred to as early > settlers, early Europeans, European colonizers or newcomers, although > most textbooks still call them Pilgrims. > > "[The word] Pilgrim implies religion," said Brian Jones, vice president > for Communications and Policy at the Education Leaders Council in > Washington. "It's getting more difficult to talk about the Bible and the > Puritans." > > But if the state leaves out specific names and events in its standards, > then teachers must defer to history textbooks that are written by > national and state committees, Mr. Saxe argued. "We're still at the > mercy of the textbook, and that defeats the purpose of standards," Mr. > Saxe said. "This pretty much lets classroom teachers do what they want. > I have no trouble with that if it's a competent teacher. But what about > those who are not?" > > Mr. Doolan said the state board does not set a state curriculum but > rather a general guideline, which local school districts then use to > come up with their own lesson plans. > > The state also writes a curriculum framework, which includes a > "Suggested Topics" section recommending what teachers should teach. The > current framework, adopted in 1999, suggests that teachers teach about > the administrations of Washington, John Adams and Jefferson. > > The 1999 framework will most likely be revised when the new history > standards are adopted. > > "Our standards have always been fairly general because it's up to the > districts to follow up on them," Mr. Doolan said. "The districts will > take the standards and flesh out what contents should be taught." > > Although state board officials did not include any Founding Fathers or > other well-known American figures, they did add, in their first draft, > the names of slavery opponents Theodore Dwight Weld and Angelina and > Sarah Grimke in the section about the Civil War and Reconstruction > period. > > Why include them and not Washington or Jefferson? "We wanted to make > sure to include those three names because they're not readily known to > most and we don't know whether the teachers will know to teach them," > Mr. Doolan said. > > John Fonte, a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute in Washington, > charged that the state of New Jersey is not interested in getting to the > core of American history. "Obviously, there are anti-patriotic forces at > work at the New Jersey legislature." > > Mr. Fonte is referring to the 13-year-long debate that has gone on in > the state legislature on whether to allow public school students to > recite a passage from the Declaration of Independence. > > Last summer, the New Jersey state legislature rejected the measure, > which would have required students to recite a 56-word passage from the > document every day. > > Some opponents said reciting the passage would do little to improve > students' understanding of history. Others argued the passage - which > begins "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are > created equal" - was insensitive to women and blacks. That phrase was > written at a time when slavery was legal in the United States. > > Mr. Doolan said the new history standards are only in their first draft > and will undergo 20 public hearings before approval. "If people are that > upset, then they should let us know at the public hearings," he said. > "If we get feedback from people who think we should include the names of > George Washington or Thomas Jefferson in the standards, then we'll do > it." > > ==== AMERICAN-REVOLUTION Mailing List ==== > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Conestoga Area Historical Society Web Page =-= Stokes Family Web Page http://www.rootsweb.com/~pacahs/index.htm =-= http://home.supernet.com/~jlstokes =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ==== AMERICAN-REVOLUTION Mailing List ==== ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

" Ludwig van Beethoven was often referred to as a revolutionary; this is partly due to the fact that he grew up during a time of great social and political upheaval. Although he was only six when the American colonies rebelled against the British, he was well aware of the revolution in France and closely followed Napoleon's rise to power. So, much of Beethoven's music can be interpreted to reflect his interest in the struggle for personal and political freedom. This struggle is blatantly clear in his opera Fidelio and the Ninth "Choral" Symphony, but it can also be heard in abstract music such as the Fifth Symphony." REFERENCE: Media and Travel http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney/media2.htm LOOK FOR Ode To Joy data at bottom of page. Has not 11 September 2001 changed the political climate? An effective selection of patriotic links, wired into every K-12 school computer terminal system would restore a balance of reason to local school districts and provide children free access to the past. This could easily be accomplished if significant representatives were to bring this to the immediate and direct attention of Congress and the President of the United States of America. Genealogy and family history data about the Founding Fathers, the soldiers and their families who fought in the American Revolution, should be a part of a National Internet linked database of cultural heritage. SEE: History and Social Studies http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney/history.htm Respectfully yours, Tom Tinney, Sr. Genealogy and Family History Internet Web Directory http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney/ "Free Coverage of the Genealogy World in a Nutshell" Who's Who in America, Millennium Edition [54th] - Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry, [both editions] --------------------------------------------------------- Dickason31@aol.com wrote: >I have been reading with passing interest the "no founding fathers" >discussion. > >I know they are best sellers (and many best sellers fail the test of quality), >but you MUST read the two books which illuminate important founding fathers: >"John Adams" >and >"Founding Brothers" > >I have never been much on history, but these books, I call them biographical >history, are simply awesome. You feel as if you were there, physically and >inside their thinking! > >With respect to schooling, the Adams book could be used as a history book, a >biography and as a "use of English language" book. The writings of John and >Abigail Adams are some of the most elegant English prose I've been privileged >to read in decades! > >Sincerely, > >================================ >Don Dickason >Searching for family names: >Dickason, Hamilton, Cadwal(l)ader, Wisely, >Steinberg, Borchward(t), Biesterfeld(t), Blair > > >==== AMERICAN-REVOLUTION Mailing List ==== > > > >============================== >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >

This article is a hack political piece that isn't even internally consistant. The headlines tell us the founding fathers won't be taught while the body of the text indicates, of course they will be taught, they just aren't part of the guidelines, its assumed the schools will automatically teach about Washington, Jefferson and my favorite founding father, Ben Franklin. I'm always cautious about references to "political correctness", they are almost always conservative and often distorted. One shouldn't expect any better from the Washington Times, a conservative newspaper. I expect if the state guidelines forced them to teach about Washington, Jefferson and Franklin then the Washington Times would be complaining about the loss of local control of the schools. Jim Ed St.Germain wrote: > > No Founding Fathers? That's our new history, by Ellen Sorokin > THE WASHINGTON TIMES > > Published 1/28/2002 > > George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin are not > included in the revised version of the New Jersey Department of > Education history standards - a move some critics view as political > correctness at its worst. > > The Pilgrims and the Mayflower also are excluded, as well as the word > "war," which has been replaced with "conflict" in lessons about the > early settlers, colonization and expansion. > > Also gone are most references to the inhumane treatment many American > soldiers endured in wars overseas during the 20th century. However, the > standards specifically note that students should identify slavery, the > Holocaust and modern Iraq as examples "in which people have behaved in > cruel and inhumane ways." > > The latest revisions to the state standards have disappointed educators > across the country, who said the board's exclusion of the Founding > Fathers' names is "political correctness at the end of the nth degree." > > "This is what you call a historical irresponsibility," said David Saxe, > a Penn State University education professor who reviews state history > standards nationwide for the Thomas B. Fordham Foundation in Washington. > The foundation gave the New Jersey history standards a failing grade the > last time it reviewed them. > > New Jersey's current history standards, which also exclude most > historical figures, were approved in 1996. Those standards were revised > earlier this month and have not yet been approved by the state. > > State school officials argue they do not need to list all the well-known > historical figures ? like other states' history or social studies > standards do ? because teachers will know they have to talk about the > country's first president and the other Founding Fathers when the lesson > on American history comes up. > > "It's pretty obvious what needs to be taught," said Jay Doolan, the > acting assistant commissioner of the state's Division of Academic and > Career Standards. > > State educators said the standards do include a requirement that > students "recognize the names of some major figures in American history" > - a generalization that Mr. Saxe said is a "cop out." > > "It's unimaginable to us why teachers wouldn't teach students about > George Washington when they talk about the new nation," Mr. Doolan said. > "It's also hard to imagine that when our students learn about > Thanksgiving, that they won't learn about the Pilgrims, who they were > and why they came here. ... We don't intentionally exclude certain > names. But how long should the list of names be? Who do we include or > not include?" > > Some states like Virginia and Indiana also don't include the Pilgrims in > their standards. In some cases, the Pilgrims are referred to as early > settlers, early Europeans, European colonizers or newcomers, although > most textbooks still call them Pilgrims. > > "[The word] Pilgrim implies religion," said Brian Jones, vice president > for Communications and Policy at the Education Leaders Council in > Washington. "It's getting more difficult to talk about the Bible and the > Puritans." > > But if the state leaves out specific names and events in its standards, > then teachers must defer to history textbooks that are written by > national and state committees, Mr. Saxe argued. "We're still at the > mercy of the textbook, and that defeats the purpose of standards," Mr. > Saxe said. "This pretty much lets classroom teachers do what they want. > I have no trouble with that if it's a competent teacher. But what about > those who are not?" > > Mr. Doolan said the state board does not set a state curriculum but > rather a general guideline, which local school districts then use to > come up with their own lesson plans. > > The state also writes a curriculum framework, which includes a > "Suggested Topics" section recommending what teachers should teach. The > current framework, adopted in 1999, suggests that teachers teach about > the administrations of Washington, John Adams and Jefferson. > > The 1999 framework will most likely be revised when the new history > standards are adopted. > > "Our standards have always been fairly general because it's up to the > districts to follow up on them," Mr. Doolan said. "The districts will > take the standards and flesh out what contents should be taught." > > Although state board officials did not include any Founding Fathers or > other well-known American figures, they did add, in their first draft, > the names of slavery opponents Theodore Dwight Weld and Angelina and > Sarah Grimke in the section about the Civil War and Reconstruction > period. > > Why include them and not Washington or Jefferson? "We wanted to make > sure to include those three names because they're not readily known to > most and we don't know whether the teachers will know to teach them," > Mr. Doolan said. > > John Fonte, a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute in Washington, > charged that the state of New Jersey is not interested in getting to the > core of American history. "Obviously, there are anti-patriotic forces at > work at the New Jersey legislature." > > Mr. Fonte is referring to the 13-year-long debate that has gone on in > the state legislature on whether to allow public school students to > recite a passage from the Declaration of Independence. > > Last summer, the New Jersey state legislature rejected the measure, > which would have required students to recite a 56-word passage from the > document every day. > > Some opponents said reciting the passage would do little to improve > students' understanding of history. Others argued the passage - which > begins "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are > created equal" - was insensitive to women and blacks. That phrase was > written at a time when slavery was legal in the United States. > > Mr. Doolan said the new history standards are only in their first draft > and will undergo 20 public hearings before approval. "If people are that > upset, then they should let us know at the public hearings," he said. > "If we get feedback from people who think we should include the names of > George Washington or Thomas Jefferson in the standards, then we'll do > it." > > ==== AMERICAN-REVOLUTION Mailing List ==== > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Conestoga Area Historical Society Web Page =-= Stokes Family Web Page http://www.rootsweb.com/~pacahs/index.htm =-= http://home.supernet.com/~jlstokes =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

No Founding Fathers? That's our new history, by Ellen Sorokin THE WASHINGTON TIMES Published 1/28/2002 George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin are not included in the revised version of the New Jersey Department of Education history standards - a move some critics view as political correctness at its worst. The Pilgrims and the Mayflower also are excluded, as well as the word "war," which has been replaced with "conflict" in lessons about the early settlers, colonization and expansion. Also gone are most references to the inhumane treatment many American soldiers endured in wars overseas during the 20th century. However, the standards specifically note that students should identify slavery, the Holocaust and modern Iraq as examples "in which people have behaved in cruel and inhumane ways." The latest revisions to the state standards have disappointed educators across the country, who said the board's exclusion of the Founding Fathers' names is "political correctness at the end of the nth degree." "This is what you call a historical irresponsibility," said David Saxe, a Penn State University education professor who reviews state history standards nationwide for the Thomas B. Fordham Foundation in Washington. The foundation gave the New Jersey history standards a failing grade the last time it reviewed them. New Jersey's current history standards, which also exclude most historical figures, were approved in 1996. Those standards were revised earlier this month and have not yet been approved by the state. State school officials argue they do not need to list all the well-known historical figures ? like other states' history or social studies standards do ? because teachers will know they have to talk about the country's first president and the other Founding Fathers when the lesson on American history comes up. "It's pretty obvious what needs to be taught," said Jay Doolan, the acting assistant commissioner of the state's Division of Academic and Career Standards. State educators said the standards do include a requirement that students "recognize the names of some major figures in American history" - a generalization that Mr. Saxe said is a "cop out." "It's unimaginable to us why teachers wouldn't teach students about George Washington when they talk about the new nation," Mr. Doolan said. "It's also hard to imagine that when our students learn about Thanksgiving, that they won't learn about the Pilgrims, who they were and why they came here. ... We don't intentionally exclude certain names. But how long should the list of names be? Who do we include or not include?" Some states like Virginia and Indiana also don't include the Pilgrims in their standards. In some cases, the Pilgrims are referred to as early settlers, early Europeans, European colonizers or newcomers, although most textbooks still call them Pilgrims. "[The word] Pilgrim implies religion," said Brian Jones, vice president for Communications and Policy at the Education Leaders Council in Washington. "It's getting more difficult to talk about the Bible and the Puritans." But if the state leaves out specific names and events in its standards, then teachers must defer to history textbooks that are written by national and state committees, Mr. Saxe argued. "We're still at the mercy of the textbook, and that defeats the purpose of standards," Mr. Saxe said. "This pretty much lets classroom teachers do what they want. I have no trouble with that if it's a competent teacher. But what about those who are not?" Mr. Doolan said the state board does not set a state curriculum but rather a general guideline, which local school districts then use to come up with their own lesson plans. The state also writes a curriculum framework, which includes a "Suggested Topics" section recommending what teachers should teach. The current framework, adopted in 1999, suggests that teachers teach about the administrations of Washington, John Adams and Jefferson. The 1999 framework will most likely be revised when the new history standards are adopted. "Our standards have always been fairly general because it's up to the districts to follow up on them," Mr. Doolan said. "The districts will take the standards and flesh out what contents should be taught." Although state board officials did not include any Founding Fathers or other well-known American figures, they did add, in their first draft, the names of slavery opponents Theodore Dwight Weld and Angelina and Sarah Grimke in the section about the Civil War and Reconstruction period. Why include them and not Washington or Jefferson? "We wanted to make sure to include those three names because they're not readily known to most and we don't know whether the teachers will know to teach them," Mr. Doolan said. John Fonte, a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute in Washington, charged that the state of New Jersey is not interested in getting to the core of American history. "Obviously, there are anti-patriotic forces at work at the New Jersey legislature." Mr. Fonte is referring to the 13-year-long debate that has gone on in the state legislature on whether to allow public school students to recite a passage from the Declaration of Independence. Last summer, the New Jersey state legislature rejected the measure, which would have required students to recite a 56-word passage from the document every day. Some opponents said reciting the passage would do little to improve students' understanding of history. Others argued the passage - which begins "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal" - was insensitive to women and blacks. That phrase was written at a time when slavery was legal in the United States. Mr. Doolan said the new history standards are only in their first draft and will undergo 20 public hearings before approval. "If people are that upset, then they should let us know at the public hearings," he said. "If we get feedback from people who think we should include the names of George Washington or Thomas Jefferson in the standards, then we'll do it."

Should I put the soldier in question in the subject of each mail- or the unit? I am new at Rev War research but have a number of ancestors who served from a number of states... am also looking for other researchers of my husband's ancestors: LT. THOMAS 7 COCHRAN{i ({290THOMAS{ 6i , {296JAMES{ 5i , {298PETER{ 4i , {300JAMES{ 3i , {302JAMES{ 2i , JOHN{ 1i ) was born July 08, 1746 in Vermont, and died April 15, 1818. He married {210LUCRETIA COUNCIL April 04, 1771, daughter o {307632HENRY COUNCIL and ELIZABETH PLEDGER. She was born April 1742 in Cheraw District, SC, and died September 07, 1784 in Marlboro County, SC. Notes or {209LT. THOMAS COCHRAN: Thomas Cochran, Sr. was a Revolutionary soldier or 3 years, 1775-1778, in Captain Wise's Company, 3rd Regiment o South Carolina Continental Line. The roll states: age, 28 years: place o birth, New England: Height, 5t 10".(South Carolina Historical Magazine, July 1900 and July 1901). He later served in the Revolutionary Was as Lieutenant in Col. George Hick's Reginemnt, South Carolina Militia. Record or pay as such is now on file in the Historical Commission, South Carolina 1708 Race St Philadelphia, Pa July 20, 1922 Thank you in advance. Diane Gibbs (Stratton) Gambrell

thanks for all those who replied to my query on the three oval links on the tombstone. The consensus says it represents membership in the Order of Oddfellows. I appreciate the help. Rusty Danenhour Lang ===== Take care, Rusty Lang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com

Hi PA friends, A kind soul at the Cheltenham Cemetery outside Philadelphia photographed a picture of my ancestor's grave. On the tombstone is a symbol that is three intertwined oval links, somewhat like the Olympic symbol or a chain. does anyone know what this may symbolize? Perhaps a Masonic or fraternal organization? I sure would like to know. thanks, Rusty Danenhour Lang ===== Take care, Rusty Lang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com

Edward Montague and the American Revolution http://www.montaguemillennium.com/research/am_rev.htm