> Le 21 mars 13 à 00:38, Brian J Densmore a écrit : > >>> Audrey, >>> >>> the child was born "heutte ... um Elff uhren" = today at 11 (likely >>> AM, though not mentionned). There is clearly a "l" after the E, then >>> the double F (compare wonhafft = residing) >> >> Well, I don't know where you "clearly" get an "l" out of that chicken >> scratch, but the "double f" is definitely the best explanation here, >> or a >> "double s", which makes no sense and can thus be rejected. There >> really >> were only two choices here, Elff of Erst. I just couldn't see an "l". > > And yet, there is an L. The curve is obvious. 100 % sure. I wasn't disputing it, but it wasn't obvious or clear to me, or I'd have said so. I couldn't see loop you speak of, until I enlarged it really big. Maybe my eyes aren't what they used to be. > > >>> In German "Uhr" = hour (but also "watch", which doesnt make any sense >>> here) >>> >>> OK, "Uhren" instead of "uhr", but this record is really full of >>> mistakes, e.g. "heutte" for "heute", "nitterkomen" for >>> "niedergekommen", "Dagner" for "Tagner".... in this awkward German >>> mixed up with Alsatian expressions. >> >> I disagree strongly here. This looks very clearly to be the writing >> of a >> Low German speaker. There are German dialects that use these forms. I >> wouldn't call them mistakes or awkward. It's clearly wrong for High >> German. > > What is Low/High German? This record is from Alsace not fro northern > Germany, and as a native Alsatian speaker (Alemanic linguistic group) > and having read thousands of Alsatian records, I maintain that this > record is written in a bad German with a strong Alsatian (Alemanic) > accent. Low German encompasses those dialect spoken and written in the North of Germany. North of Berlin, sweeping in an arc across Germany to the Netherlands, where Dutch is spoken and a derivative itself of Low German. Granted the record is from Alsace. I'm not disputing that, but who is to say where the writer came from. People have been known to migrate from one place to another. I have ancestors from Alsace that originated in Switzerland, and Baden and even Austria. Alsace has been invaded by peoples from Baden, Italy, Hesse, Austria, Sweden. Now of course, you are far more experienced in Alsatian than I am, but I can remember you, or Ewald, telling me before that Alsatian didn't have a written form, or I'd have suggested it was written in an Alsatian accent. Which, in my book is the most likely. But, I wouldn't call it "Bad" German, if indeed it is written in an Alsatian dialect, then it would be correct for Alsatian. It would only be bad from a perspective of not being High German which has become the "standard" German. But "standard German" didn't exist in 1808. Yes, there was some attempts as early as the mid 1600s to standardize German, by book publishers, but there was no standard really before the 1870s. But then, I'm probably just being pedantic. I'm not trying to start an argument, although I love to debate. I'm just seeking to develop a much clearer view of the texts and the people and the nuances of the history and writings. It's fine to collect names and dates and occupations, but to me, we miss out if we don't delve into the richness of what is written. The way people write leaves clues, and I always want to put the clues together to get the story. So, don't get upset if I challenge statements. Also, I will sometimes misinterpret what you say. When you said "Alsatian expressions" I took it to mean "speech phrases typical of Alsatian speech", rather than the "typical Alsatian transliteration of letters". Both of which "could" be correct interpretation of what you wrote. The beauty of language is the "opportunity" of misunderstanding the speaker. ;^) >> Notice the consistent use of the initial "d" for "t". Which might also >> account for grammatical differences. But I'm not an expert on Low >> German >> or High German grammar, but to me this is clearly written in a Low >> German >> or possibly Middle German form. > > As I wrote several times here, the confusions D/T, B/P, G/K, V/F (= > lenition) are typical of Alsatian accent. See e.g. "Debartement". > Here, your name would be pronounced something between Brian and > Prian. ;^) Well what about vowel shifts? Don't they vary as well? > > Edienne > Nadife Alsatian sbeager lol Brian Native New Yawkah