> > > Audrey, > > the child was born "heutte ... um Elff uhren" = today at 11 (likely > AM, though not mentionned). There is clearly a "l" after the E, then > the double F (compare wonhafft = residing) Well, I don't know where you "clearly" get an "l" out of that chicken scratch, but the "double f" is definitely the best explanation here, or a "double s", which makes no sense and can thus be rejected. There really were only two choices here, Elff of Erst. I just couldn't see an "l". > In German "Uhr" = hour (but also "watch", which doesnt make any sense > here) > > OK, "Uhren" instead of "uhr", but this record is really full of > mistakes, e.g. "heutte" for "heute", "nitterkomen" for > "niedergekommen", "Dagner" for "Tagner".... in this awkward German > mixed up with Alsatian expressions. I disagree strongly here. This looks very clearly to be the writing of a Low German speaker. There are German dialects that use these forms. I wouldn't call them mistakes or awkward. It's clearly wrong for High German. Notice the consistent use of the initial "d" for "t". Which might also account for grammatical differences. But I'm not an expert on Low German or High German grammar, but to me this is clearly written in a Low German or possibly Middle German form. Brian

Le 21 mars 13 à 00:38, Brian J Densmore a écrit : >> Audrey, >> >> the child was born "heutte ... um Elff uhren" = today at 11 (likely >> AM, though not mentionned). There is clearly a "l" after the E, then >> the double F (compare wonhafft = residing) > > Well, I don't know where you "clearly" get an "l" out of that chicken > scratch, but the "double f" is definitely the best explanation here, > or a > "double s", which makes no sense and can thus be rejected. There > really > were only two choices here, Elff of Erst. I just couldn't see an "l". And yet, there is an L. The curve is obvious. 100 % sure. >> In German "Uhr" = hour (but also "watch", which doesnt make any sense >> here) >> >> OK, "Uhren" instead of "uhr", but this record is really full of >> mistakes, e.g. "heutte" for "heute", "nitterkomen" for >> "niedergekommen", "Dagner" for "Tagner".... in this awkward German >> mixed up with Alsatian expressions. > > I disagree strongly here. This looks very clearly to be the writing > of a > Low German speaker. There are German dialects that use these forms. I > wouldn't call them mistakes or awkward. It's clearly wrong for High > German. What is Low/High German? This record is from Alsace not fro northern Germany, and as a native Alsatian speaker (Alemanic linguistic group) and having read thousands of Alsatian records, I maintain that this record is written in a bad German with a strong Alsatian (Alemanic) accent. > Notice the consistent use of the initial "d" for "t". Which might also > account for grammatical differences. But I'm not an expert on Low > German > or High German grammar, but to me this is clearly written in a Low > German > or possibly Middle German form. As I wrote several times here, the confusions D/T, B/P, G/K, V/F (= lenition) are typical of Alsatian accent. See e.g. "Debartement". Here, your name would be pronounced something between Brian and Prian. ;^) Edienne Nadife Alsatian sbeager

Isn't this the truth! Because of these letters as Etienne indicated, the interpretations by clerks/recorders has resulted in many variant spellings of an original surname, even with my own ancestors. Biam = Piam Vetter = Feather Giesseman = Keeseman = Geesaman ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >As I wrote several times here, the confusions D/T, B/P, G/K, V/F (=lenition) are typical of Alsatian accent. See e.g. "Debartement". Here, your name would be pronounced something between Brian and Prian. ;^) Edienne Nadife Alsatian sbeager

Thank you, Brian and Etienne, I'm certainly getting a lesson in High German, Low German, French, and gutteral Alsatian. I guess if someone knows words in the various languages they might eventually blend them into their daily language. I can remember reading a booklet entitled "Landmark of Catholism" as it had to do with the history of St. John the Baptist Catholic Church in Canton, Stark Co., OH. This involved Catholic families arriving from "Lorraine, France." It spoke of "Most of those 'Frenchmen' spoke German or the guttural Alsatian dialect." p. 17 I can remember my mother using a few German words when she spoke to us, especially when she wanted to say "Do you understand, me?" I think it began with ver... something. Her father (John Lehmann) spoke in both German & English. I believe his father spoke both German and French (perhaps Alsatian) and some English, but is said to have worshipped from a French prayer. He married a German lady from Baden, so the family basically spoke German. By the time my mother (youngest of 11) went to a German Catholic School, they had changed from teaching in German to English. However, her older siblings spoke both German and English. Thank you, gentlemen, for your thoughts and discussion. I am grateful for your input and it is wonderful that you are willing to help me with these translations, which evidently can be a bit challenging at times. THANK YOU. Audrey -----Original Message----- From: alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Brian J Densmore Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 7:38 PM To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [A-L] Another German ? Record--Lost in Translation--Johannes Leman (sic) > > > Audrey, > > the child was born "heutte ... um Elff uhren" = today at 11 (likely > AM, though not mentionned). There is clearly a "l" after the E, then > the double F (compare wonhafft = residing) Well, I don't know where you "clearly" get an "l" out of that chicken scratch, but the "double f" is definitely the best explanation here, or a "double s", which makes no sense and can thus be rejected. There really were only two choices here, Elff of Erst. I just couldn't see an "l". > In German "Uhr" = hour (but also "watch", which doesnt make any sense > here) > > OK, "Uhren" instead of "uhr", but this record is really full of > mistakes, e.g. "heutte" for "heute", "nitterkomen" for > "niedergekommen", "Dagner" for "Tagner".... in this awkward German > mixed up with Alsatian expressions. I disagree strongly here. This looks very clearly to be the writing of a Low German speaker. There are German dialects that use these forms. I wouldn't call them mistakes or awkward. It's clearly wrong for High German. Notice the consistent use of the initial "d" for "t". Which might also account for grammatical differences. But I'm not an expert on Low German or High German grammar, but to me this is clearly written in a Low German or possibly Middle German form. Brian

On Mar 21, 2013, at 8:38 AM, Brian J Densmore wrote: > Notice the consistent use of the initial "d" for "t". Which might also > account for grammatical differences. But I'm not an expert on Low German > or High German grammar, but to me this is clearly written in a Low German > or possibly Middle German form. Brian, why do you say you are not an expert, but then say "clearly". And i don't see much point in arguing about the language origin; from what I see on a map of German dialects Low German areas are nowhere near Alsace. I would go with Etienne in this case as he is an Alsatian who can speak Alsatian. I even suggest that there may have been slight variations in speech transcribed into the written from village to village. I would suggest further to go to the page of this particular record and compare the information and the writing. There are four records including the Leman one. I agree with Etienne in the following, using common sense, that the child was likely born in the morning if the birth was reported the same day. Evening? Figure that as unlikely. And I think I see a "Nachmittag" - afternoon further on in the text with the report. Again this is good practice for all of us. Gloria Ishida >> >> >> Audrey, >> >> the child was born "heutte ... um Elff uhren" = today at 11 (likely >> AM, though not mentionned). There is clearly a "l" after the E, then >> the double F (compare wonhafft = residing) > > > Etienne >> In German "Uhr" = hour (but also "watch", which doesnt make any sense >> here) >> >> .. in this awkward German >> mixed up with Alsatian expressions. > > > -- "Genealogy. An account of one's descent from an ancestor who did not particularly care to trace his own." Ambrose Bierce