Audrey and all, Audrey, I have just visited your website and congratulate you on your extensive work. The rest of you listers forgive me for writing personal background but the language aspect is relevant and also I am amazed how personal connections come from this list. I have done much research about the Cincinnati Diocese and before as two of my ancestral German speaking families came from Lorraine to Ohio in the fall of 1828. They were on their way to Cincinnati but because of a wagon breakdown in Huron County, northern Ohio, they settled there. Peter Carabin, who had already been in seminary, subsequently followed Father Fenwick to Cincinnati. Upon ordination he was assigned to a parish in rural Monroe, Michigan. With him was a native English speaking priest and he was having trouble with the French speakers of the parish, more than just language. The english speaking priest eft for other reasons. Father Carabin went on to serve in primarily French parishes as well as a German one. It's a long story and one I am writing now. My point is, both Alsatians and Lorrainians were more than likely trilingual or more depending on their education, and probably mixed up the languages. Question from your reference below. Did the Lorrainians coming to Canton speak "guttural Alsatian". Did it depend on close their original villages were close to Alsace? It seems that Father Carabin's English that he learned after coming to the US, was considered strange for awhile. His last parish was St. John's in Canton, where he served only 3 months (1853 ) as his precarious health finally forced him to retire from the ministry. How long were the Lehmann's there? I see some went to Seneca County, Ohio, also my area. I assume you have been to FamilySearch, Diocese of Toledo Ohio, Seneca County, St. Stephen's. Just glancing found the actual death record of Nicholas, whose will and death date you have, page 27 of Marriages and deaths. For any listers who have ancestors who settled in northern western Ohio, the aforementioned is an excellent resource. Audrey, write me at my address as above if you wish. Gloria Ishida On Mar 21, 2013, at 10:14 PM, Audrey Shields Hancock wrote: > Thank you, Brian and Etienne, > > I'm certainly getting a lesson in High German, Low German, French, and > gutteral Alsatian. I guess if someone knows words in the various languages > they might eventually blend them into their daily language. I can remember > reading a booklet entitled "Landmark of Catholism" as it had to do with the > history of St. John the Baptist Catholic Church in Canton, Stark Co., OH. > This involved Catholic families arriving from "Lorraine, France." It spoke > of "Most of those 'Frenchmen' spoke German or the guttural Alsatian > dialect." p. 17 >

These people took their Oath of Allegiance at the same time in Canton, Stark Co., OH. Notice that my Michel Lehmann is recorded as Michael Layman. At the present I have not found any relationship to the other men, although there may have been. Michel Lehmann and family left Schirrhein in 1828 from Le Harve, France. They were in Plain Twp., Stark Co., OH for the 1830 Census residing near Michael Amann and Anthony Hahn and perhaps others (probably relatives or friends from Schirrhein); took Oath in 1837 and evidently left by 1838 for what was then Berlin (aka Loramie's and finally Ft. Loramie), Shelby Co., OH. He purchased land there in 1838. Michel Lehmann's biographical sketch is at http://tinyurl.com/ylrlvr8 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ OATH OF ALLEGIANCE (Naturalization Record), Canton, Stark Co., OH Friday, 5th May 1837 "Now comes Christian Witt, John Creps, Michael Layman [sic], and Michael Miller natives of France within the dominions of the King of France and proves by the records of this Court that more than 2 years ago to wit the said Michael Miller, Michael Layman, and Christian Witt at the August term of this Court AD 1834 and the said John Creps at the April term of this Court AD 1833 they filed the requisite declaration of their intention to become citizens of the U. States and further prove to the satisfaction of this Court that they have resided within the United States for the term of 5 years last past and within the state of Ohio during the last year and that during the time aforesaid they have behaved as men of good moral character attached to the principles of the Constitution of the United States and well disposed to the good order and happiness of the same and the said Christian Witt, John Creps, Michael Layman, and Michael Miller now here in open Court declare on oath that they will support the Constitution of the United States and that they do absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to every foreign prince potentate state or sovereignty whatever and particularly to the King of France to whom they were heretofore subjects. Therefore it is ordered that a certificate of naturalization issue to them----- on payment of the costs of this proceeding." Transcribed 1 August 1986 by Audrey (LEHMANN-SHIELDS) HANCOCK, (Descendant of son, Martin Michael LEHMANN of Ft. Loramie, Shelby Co., OH) at Canton, Ohio Public Library: microfilm: Court House Records of Stark County, Ohio Common Pleas Office, Record Journal 1837-1838, Volume H, "Aliens/Aliens Application"

I too was very impressed with your website Audrey - you told the story in an interesting way while smoothly (meaning no loss in the flow) including those oh-so-important source citations. I forwarded the link to another genealogist who has been struggling with that very issue. This list is helpful in SO many ways. :o) In addition, like Gloria, I am very interested in the language issue. My Lorraine-born 2nd great grandmother married a Swiss gentleman and I have always been curious about their prospective language barrier. This woman had been married previously to another Ohio immigrant, a man who was born in Hanover Germany. Her father's obituary appeared in a German newspaper in Cincinnati. Language, like other sideline topics periodically addressed on this list, add depth and dimension to our family trees. This in turn opens the door to additional sources of information. I look forward to more of this discussion! Laura On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 10:15 PM, gloria ishida <gfb-ishida@gol.com> wrote: > Audrey and all, > > Audrey, I have just visited your website and congratulate you on your > extensive work. > > The rest of you listers forgive me for writing personal background but the > language aspect is relevant and also I am amazed how personal connections > come from this list. > > I have done much research about the Cincinnati Diocese and before as two > of my ancestral German speaking families came from Lorraine to Ohio in the > fall of 1828. They were on their way to Cincinnati but because of a wagon > breakdown in Huron County, northern Ohio, they settled there. Peter > Carabin, who had already been in seminary, subsequently followed Father > Fenwick to Cincinnati. Upon ordination he was assigned to a parish in rural > Monroe, Michigan. With him was a native English speaking priest and he was > having trouble with the French speakers of the parish, more than just > language. The english speaking priest eft for other reasons. Father > Carabin went on to serve in primarily French parishes as well as a German > one. It's a long story and one I am writing now. > > My point is, both Alsatians and Lorrainians were more than likely > trilingual or more depending on their education, and probably mixed up the > languages. > > Question from your reference below. Did the Lorrainians coming to Canton > speak "guttural Alsatian". Did it depend on close their original villages > were close to Alsace?

> I too was very impressed with your website Audrey - you told the story in > an interesting way while smoothly (meaning no loss in the flow) > including those oh-so-important source citations. I forwarded the link to > another genealogist who has been struggling with that very issue. This > list > is helpful in SO many ways. :o) > > In addition, like Gloria, I am very interested in the language issue. My > Lorraine-born 2nd great grandmother married a Swiss gentleman and I have > always been curious about their prospective language barrier. This woman Lorraine-Franconian is a High West German dialect, as are the Swiss dialects. The Swiss dialects are Allemanic dialects, whereas Lorraine-Franconian is a West-Central dialect in the Franconian family. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_languages I would expect this couple understood each other without difficulty. However, it's really not easy to classify these various dialects into distinct groups there is much variation and mingling. It's all very fuzzy. Brian

Hi, Gloria and Interested Others, To answer this question of yours: Question from your reference below. Did the Lorrainians coming to Canton speak "guttural Alsatian". Did it depend on close their original villages were close to Alsace? I don't know the answer. Here is what the booklet says: p. 5 On February 10, 1828, U. S. Catholic Miscellany stated that 'thirty Catholic families arrived from Lorraine, France at Canton, their chief motive in selecting this spot being the convenience of a Catholic church." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ p. 17 "Though St. John's began as a congregation in 1823 with only fifteen families, in 1828 alone thirty Catholic families arrived from Lorraine, France. Most of those "Frenchmen" spoke German or the gutteral Alsatian dialect." "Relations between the Germans and the English/Irish were not always cordial; and it's said for many years no Irishman could graduate fromt he German-dominated diocesan seminary." "After twenty years, St. John's German-speaking parishioners decided they wanted their native language perserved in sermons, confessions and schools. They thus decided to create a new parish, St. Peter's, and began the process by having father John H. Luhr conduct separate services in German at St. John's while he resided with Father J.J. Doherty there from September 1844 until June 1847. Meanwhile, St. Peter's was being constructed under Father Luhr direction." {dannemiller, Franklin T., "Landmark of Catholicism, St. John's Catholic Church, Canton, Ohio Sesquicentennieal 1824-1974," July, 1974) -----Original Message----- From: gloria ishida [mailto:gfb-ishida@gol.com] Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 11:15 PM To: AudreyHancock1939@sbcglobal.net; alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [A-L] Lost in Translation: High German, Low German, French, & Alsatian Audrey and all, Audrey, I have just visited your website and congratulate you on your extensive work. The rest of you listers forgive me for writing personal background but the language aspect is relevant and also I am amazed how personal connections come from this list. I have done much research about the Cincinnati Diocese and before as two of my ancestral German speaking families came from Lorraine to Ohio in the fall of 1828. They were on their way to Cincinnati but because of a wagon breakdown in Huron County, northern Ohio, they settled there. Peter Carabin, who had already been in seminary, subsequently followed Father Fenwick to Cincinnati. Upon ordination he was assigned to a parish in rural Monroe, Michigan. With him was a native English speaking priest and he was having trouble with the French speakers of the parish, more than just language. The english speaking priest eft for other reasons. Father Carabin went on to serve in primarily French parishes as well as a German one. It's a long story and one I am writing now. My point is, both Alsatians and Lorrainians were more than likely trilingual or more depending on their education, and probably mixed up the languages. Question from your reference below. Did the Lorrainians coming to Canton speak "guttural Alsatian". Did it depend on close their original villages were close to Alsace? It seems that Father Carabin's English that he learned after coming to the US, was considered strange for awhile. His last parish was St. John's in Canton, where he served only 3 months (1853 ) as his precarious health finally forced him to retire from the ministry. How long were the Lehmann's there? I see some went to Seneca County, Ohio, also my area. I assume you have been to FamilySearch, Diocese of Toledo Ohio, Seneca County, St. Stephen's. Just glancing found the actual death record of Nicholas, whose will and death date you have, page 27 of Marriages and deaths. For any listers who have ancestors who settled in northern western Ohio, the aforementioned is an excellent resource. Audrey, write me at my address as above if you wish. Gloria Ishida On Mar 21, 2013, at 10:14 PM, Audrey Shields Hancock wrote: > Thank you, Brian and Etienne, > > I'm certainly getting a lesson in High German, Low German, French, and > gutteral Alsatian. I guess if someone knows words in the various languages > they might eventually blend them into their daily language. I can remember > reading a booklet entitled "Landmark of Catholism" as it had to do with the > history of St. John the Baptist Catholic Church in Canton, Stark Co., OH. > This involved Catholic families arriving from "Lorraine, France." It spoke > of "Most of those 'Frenchmen' spoke German or the guttural Alsatian > dialect." p. 17 > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2641/5695 - Release Date: 03/21/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2641/5695 - Release Date: 03/21/13