Would someone kindly define "gutteral" Alsatian? It doesn't sound very...um...kind. On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Audrey Shields Hancock < AudreyHancock1939@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > Hi, Gloria and Interested Others, > > To answer this question of yours: > > Question from your reference below. Did the Lorrainians coming to Canton > speak "guttural Alsatian". Did it depend on close their original villages > were close to Alsace? > > I don't know the answer. Here is what the booklet says: > > p. 5 > On February 10, 1828, U. S. Catholic Miscellany stated that 'thirty > Catholic > families arrived from Lorraine, France at Canton, their chief motive in > selecting this spot being the convenience of a Catholic church." > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > p. 17 > > "Though St. John's began as a congregation in 1823 with only fifteen > families, in 1828 alone thirty Catholic families arrived from Lorraine, > France. Most of those "Frenchmen" spoke German or the gutteral Alsatian > dialect." >

>From the excerpt that I sent previously, evidently Canton was one of the early catalyst for drawing Catholic immigrants from France. Some sojourned for a time in Canton [Stark County, Ohio] and left perhaps to spread the Catholic religion and to establish Catholic Churches in other place or to buy land and establish homes elsewhere. Close families and friends seemed to have gone their separate ways, and with the Lehmann family, it is said that contact between brothers (Nicolas Lehmann to Wyandot & Seneca Counties, Ohio and Michel Lehmann to Shelby County, Ohio) was eventually lost. Their sister, Marie Madeleine/Mary Magdelena Lehmann had married Ignatz Zircher/Zurcher and settled in Shelby Co., OH near Michel, but their daughter (Clementena Zircher/Zurcher married Johann Petrus Courtad as his 2nd wife in Seneca County, Ohio, after getting their license in Shelby Co., Ohio.). Here is a little more Canton history: "From 1796 to 1817 there were no priests in all Ohio. Prior to that, some missionaries had travelled out of French Detroit as far east as Sandusky [Ohio]. From 1797, while still a wilderness, the Canton area had been part of Ohio's Jefferson County, but later in 1803, it was carved out as part of the newly formed Columbiana County.... Canton was laid out in 1806; and Stark County was detached from Columbiana and sprang into separate existence in 1808." "Canton St. John, where construction was begun in 1823, was the second Catholic church in northern Ohio, following the 1820 founding of tiny St. Paul the Apostle at Dungannon. ...St. John's history as a congregation, however, dates back to 1817 when itinerant priest Father Edward Fenwick said the first Mass here under the Shorb oak tree." (Dannemiller, Franklin T., "Landmark of Catholicism, St. John's Catholic Church, Canton, Ohio Sesquicentennieal 1824-1974," July, 1974, p. 4-5) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Shorb (1759-1824) is given as born in Zweibreuchen, Rheinpfalz, Germany. He is given as the first Catholic known to have settled in Canton coming from Baltimore. His wife was Catherine Gross (1758-1841). (Dannemiller, Franklin T., "Landmark of Catholicism, St. John's Catholic Church, Canton, Ohio Sesquicentennieal 1824-1974," July, 1974, p. 6)

Alsace-Lorraine to Ohio. On Mar 22, 2013, at 11:59 PM, Audrey Shields Hancock wrote: > > > Here is a little more Canton history: > > "From 1796 to 1817 there were no priests in all Ohio. Prior to that, some > missionaries had travelled out of French Detroit as far east as Sandusky > [Ohio]. Church histories that mention early beginnings often do not explicate so one needs to dig further. The above probably was not particularly relevant to St. John's history. But missionaries who travelled in to Northwest Ohio mainly went out to convert the Indians and in one case to minister to the French Canadian soldiers at Fort Meigs. It was when immigrants from Europe began settlement that priests began to minister to these folk and new parishes were begun. Bishop Fenwick and Father Henni traveled of Cincinnati to do this. It was to Cincinnati where early Germans, Alsatian and Lorrainians came, thus it did have a large percentage of Catholic families. Bishop Fenwick established the seminary there. As I said that was where my ancestors were headed but stopped their journey near Norwalk. Others followed and it was through the determination of my gggg (?) aunt who had been educated by nuns and who may have been a nun herself, (debatable), and the Bauer (Phalsbourg) and Carabin (Lutzelbourg) families, who were closely related, that let to the formation of the Catholic parish in what still remains a rural area. It is said that "Schwester" Francesca Bauer, who was already in her 40s, had joined her family in immigrating, experienced religious persecution. This I have doubts about. The families, while common, did not seem to be particularly hard up, the family members were large in number and had money to get to the US and to buy extensive acreage. Another part of my paternal side, also came from Lorraine, Bening to Sandusky County, Ohio. Look at those long sentences - does it show my German heritage? Gloria "Genealogy. An account of one's descent from an ancestor who did not particularly care to trace his own." Ambrose Bierce

Unless they were missionaries, people just did not have the time to move about and establish churches in other areas. In those days, the lands were forested and had to be cleared just to build a home, plant crops, etc.. Those who settled near enough to others of the same faith gathered as they could and had their own services until a priest or reverend was able to settle in the area and establish a formal church. Of course it is true that people of the same faith or from the same or nearby towns often settled near one another. Linda now in California (was Costa Rica) Monroe County, New York Genealogy http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monroenys Monroe County, New York History http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monroenys -----Original Message----- From: Audrey Shields Hancock Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 7:59 AM To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Subject: [A-L] Catholic Settlers in Canton, Ohio and outward [Large SNIP] >From the excerpt that I sent previously, evidently Canton was one of the early catalyst for drawing Catholic immigrants from France. Some sojourned for a time in Canton [Stark County, Ohio] and left perhaps to spread the Catholic religion and to establish Catholic Churches in other place or to buy land and establish homes elsewhere.

Maybe these links will help a few readers learn more about the languages. Although, I'm sure both Etienne and Ewald could add much to this. These are all articles on the wide variation and complex dialectic variations of the German language(s), of which English is also a member. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorraine_Franconian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsatian_language http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_languages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_German http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language These articles are all well written, with many links to follow. I give these rather than attempt to relate the information, although I did minor in linguistics in college. Also, these articles present only one view. Not all scholars agree on these classifications. So you may find other equally authoritative and correct, yet different articles. But the language(s) of the Alsace-Lorraine region is one of the richest in Europe, if you ask me. If you're a language buff like me, you could spend hours crawling the different articles. I know I have. Language has always fascinated me. I would love to learn Alsatian. But alas, my family kept my Alsatian grandmother a secret from me for almost two decades, and I only got to know her later in life and we had so little time together. This much I can say, by the time I'd met her I already knew some French and German (most of which I have forgotten). When she would speak in her native tongue, it was Germanic, but there was also French in there, and certainly not the book German that I learned. But any German speaker would understand it, I think. She also spoke flawless French and English. But I think she learned the French in America. Alsace was Prussian when she was born and emigrated. But, I really don't know where she learned French, she may have learned French just from daily life in Prussian Alsace. Brian