Thank you Brian, this is interesting. Let me add a few words about this. I do not totally agree about the feeling of Alsatians to be French as an effect of Nazi atrocities. This feeling is much older than WW II. E.g. Napoleon was very popular in Alsace. Several of his best generals were Alsatians: Kleber, Kellermann, Lefebvre, Rapp, Bruat, etc. Moreover, why did so many Alsatians and Mosellans leave their homes after the German annexion in 1871? Remmber the so-called "option" (1872 onwards). Many emigrated to America, to "old" France (French Lorraine particularly), to Algeria. Of course there were also economical reasons for the Alsatian emigration during the 1800s, but the number of emigrants raised considerably after the 1871. Finally, why did the Alsatian population welcome so warmly the French armies in 1918 and the re-union to France? (even though some disappointments appeared later on). All the best, Etienne The German ('Prussian') annexation between 1871 and 1918 was not a > Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 00:54:23 -0600 (CST) > From: brian@amason.net > Let us not forget that at the end of the Thirty Years' War (i'e' the > Peace > of Westphalia) much of the Alsatian and other territories were > devastated > and there was considerable immigration into this fertile region. My > ancestors immigrated during this time from Switzerland. Also, the > recurring plagues help to decimate the population too. There were a > great > many plague outbreaks in the 1600s. It's not unusual in these years > to see > cousins (of varying degrees) marrying each other with church > dispensations. Lastly many rulers tried to subdue the Alsatian's > sense of > community (for lack of a better word at 1 am). It took the > atrocities of > the Nazis to make them want to identify as French. The Nazi's were > especially hard on the Alsatians, from what I've read.

Let's remember that the Alsace (and Lorraine) have a long, long history in Europe, spreading back to the pre-historic Celts. When Charlemagne split his Empire between his three sons, the A-L region was part of the Middle Kingdom, and to this day shares many characteristics with the rest of the Kingdom, including linguistic variety, and moving back and forth between the influence of the East and Western Kingdoms, typified by Germany and France. The more you learn about history, the more complicated -- and interesting -- it is. :-) Valorie On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Etienne Herrbach <etienne.herrbach@wanadoo.fr> wrote: > Thank you Brian, this is interesting. > > Let me add a few words about this. I do not totally agree about the > feeling of Alsatians to be French as an effect of Nazi atrocities. > This feeling is much older than WW II. > > E.g. Napoleon was very popular in Alsace. Several of his best > generals were Alsatians: Kleber, Kellermann, Lefebvre, Rapp, Bruat, etc. > > Moreover, why did so many Alsatians and Mosellans leave their homes > after the German annexion in 1871? Remmber the so-called > "option" (1872 onwards). Many emigrated to America, to "old" France > (French Lorraine particularly), to Algeria. Of course there were also > economical reasons for the Alsatian emigration during the 1800s, but > the number of emigrants raised considerably after the 1871. > > Finally, why did the Alsatian population welcome so warmly the French > armies in 1918 and the re-union to France? (even though some > disappointments appeared later on). > > All the best, > > Etienne > > > > The German ('Prussian') annexation between 1871 and 1918 was not a > >> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 00:54:23 -0600 (CST) >> From: brian@amason.net >> Let us not forget that at the end of the Thirty Years' War (i'e' the >> Peace >> of Westphalia) much of the Alsatian and other territories were >> devastated >> and there was considerable immigration into this fertile region. My >> ancestors immigrated during this time from Switzerland. Also, the >> recurring plagues help to decimate the population too. There were a >> great >> many plague outbreaks in the 1600s. It's not unusual in these years >> to see >> cousins (of varying degrees) marrying each other with church >> dispensations. Lastly many rulers tried to subdue the Alsatian's >> sense of >> community (for lack of a better word at 1 am). It took the >> atrocities of >> the Nazis to make them want to identify as French. The Nazi's were >> especially hard on the Alsatians, from what I've read. -- Facebook: http://www.new.facebook.com/profile.php?id=507013560 LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/valoriez MySpace: http://www.myspace.com/valoriez Genealogy Blog: http://genweblog.blogspot.com/ All my pages: http://valorie.zimmerman.googlepages.com

On Wed, November 12, 2008 2:09 pm, Etienne Herrbach wrote: > Thank you Brian, this is interesting. > > Let me add a few words about this. I do not totally agree about the > feeling of Alsatians to be French as an effect of Nazi atrocities. > This feeling is much older than WW II. I come to this conclusion based solely on the linguistic literature available over the times and the percentage of persons known to speak Alsatian. There was a very noticeable shift post WWII, from German to French, with accompanying less borrowings of German and of more French borrowings in German. Certainly it was not something that just happened over night. So, the existing clues point to post WWII being the final tipping point. Although it may be tipping back. Didn't Alsatian independence movements also exist well beyond WWI, but are none existent post WWII? Sure my evidence is anecdotal at best. But, that's my conclusion, unless oyu can convince me otherwise? > E.g. Napoleon was very popular in Alsace. Really, and was Robespierre as popular in Alsace? I'll bet they loved being part of France during the Reign of Terror. As well as learning a new calendar. Anyone ever get comfortable with that? ;') Well, I'm off to grab my daily 4 hours of sleep. I have another long day ahead of me, as always. Great hearing your input. PS. I'm not afraid of sites only in French. Even though my French is atrocious (sorry Gramma).