Re: "For many years I had always thought my fathers fathers side of the family came from the Alsace-Lorraine area located in Germany near Trier and the Moselle River ... Is it still correct to say my father's father's German ancestors came from Alsace-Lorraine area?" Alsace (Elszass in German) and Lorraine (Lothringen) were created when -- a very long time ago -- Charlemagne willed the territories to two of his sons. They have been mostly separate since that time. IMO, lumping them together into one "Alsace-Lorraine" obscures their individual identities and rich histories. We need to take account of the most significant geographical feature, the gigantic Rhine River. It forms the northern border of Lorraine and the northern and part of the eastern borders of Alsace. The significance of the Rhine River barrier is demonstrated by the fact that Caesar's conquest of Gaul (France) was stopped there. Germany did not exist as a nation (perhaps, as a state of mind) until unified by Prussia in the late 19th century. After fragmentation of the Holy Roman Empire, what we now call Germany was an ever-changing grab-bag of principalities, bishoprics, free cities, dukedoms, etc. What with aristocratic marriage dowries, inheritances, debt settlements, wars and such the little states were traded around from one noble house to another. So before then, we can talk about a Germanic language and Germanic culture, but not a country. Alsace and Lorraine were under Prussian (thus German) control from the Franco-Prussian War until World War I. So, if your ancestor was describing the area in 1900, he might have used the term Germany; but it would not have been accurate in 1826 or in the 1700s. As to Borg in present-day Saarland, I think you'll have to look up its specific history to identify who it belonged to when. -rt_/)

When recording, why not put in whichever the place belonged to at the time of your ancestor's being born and residing there? Then note the present location. Gl On Jul 8, 2011, at 2:51 AM, Ralph Taylor wrote: > Re: "For many years I had always thought my fathers fathers side of the > family came from the Alsace-Lorraine area located in Germany near Trier and > the Moselle River ... Is it still correct to say my father's father's > German ancestors came from Alsace-Lorraine area?" > > > > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The term Alsace-Lorraine, Imperial Territory of Alsace-Lorraine (Reichsland Elsass-Lothringen), was first used in 1871, when the former French province of Alsace, (Departments of Bas-Rhin and Haut-Rhin) and the Department of Moselle, Lorraine (with some minor changes), 5,067 square miles, were annexed by the newly formed German Empire. Most of traditional Lorraine remained within France. The population of Alsace-Lorraine in 1890 was 77% Catholic, 21% Protestant and 2% Jewish. The upper part of the Vallee de la Bruche (the cantons of Saales and Schirmeck), which had been part of the Vosges, Lorraine passed to Alsace in 1891-1892. These territories were returned to France in 1919, after World War I. They were ceded to Germany during World War II, but France regained them after Germany's defeat in 1945. Joe Rhein -----Original Message----- From: Ralph Taylor Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2011 1:51 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [A-L] ALSACE-LORRAINE place names Re: "For many years I had always thought my fathers fathers side of the family came from the Alsace-Lorraine area located in Germany near Trier and the Moselle River ... Is it still correct to say my father's father's German ancestors came from Alsace-Lorraine area?" Alsace (Elszass in German) and Lorraine (Lothringen) were created when -- a very long time ago -- Charlemagne willed the territories to two of his sons. They have been mostly separate since that time. IMO, lumping them together into one "Alsace-Lorraine" obscures their individual identities and rich histories. We need to take account of the most significant geographical feature, the gigantic Rhine River. It forms the northern border of Lorraine and the northern and part of the eastern borders of Alsace. The significance of the Rhine River barrier is demonstrated by the fact that Caesar's conquest of Gaul (France) was stopped there. Germany did not exist as a nation (perhaps, as a state of mind) until unified by Prussia in the late 19th century. After fragmentation of the Holy Roman Empire, what we now call Germany was an ever-changing grab-bag of principalities, bishoprics, free cities, dukedoms, etc. What with aristocratic marriage dowries, inheritances, debt settlements, wars and such the little states were traded around from one noble house to another. So before then, we can talk about a Germanic language and Germanic culture, but not a country. Alsace and Lorraine were under Prussian (thus German) control from the Franco-Prussian War until World War I. So, if your ancestor was describing the area in 1900, he might have used the term Germany; but it would not have been accurate in 1826 or in the 1700s. As to Borg in present-day Saarland, I think you'll have to look up its specific history to identify who it belonged to when. -rt_/) -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Ralph, sorry but the Rhine River has no connection at all to Lorraine, nor is it the northern border of Alsace. It forms the eastern border of Alsace from Basel to Lauterbourg. Then the Rhine continues its course northwards into Germany (Palatinate, Rhineland...). Etienne Le 7 juil. 11 à 19:51, Ralph Taylor a écrit : > We need to take account of the most significant geographical > feature, the > gigantic Rhine River. It forms the northern border of Lorraine and the > northern and part of the eastern borders of Alsace. The significance > of the > Rhine River barrier is demonstrated by the fact that Caesar's > conquest of > Gaul (France) was stopped there. > > -rt_/)