Hello everyone, I have been stumped for some time over the illegitimate birth of my 2nd Great Grandmother and I want to hear what you all think.  The family was from Lemberg in the Moselle Department of Lorraine. The father, Pierre Kriegel, born in 1828, was himself illegitimate. The record of his birth in the Parish Register listed him as "fils natural" as opposed to illegitimate, with no father listed. What is the significance of the term "fils natural" ? Why wouldn't they use "Illegitimate" as I have seen in so many other Catholic Parishes? It is what happened next that really confused me. In 1851 Pierre fathered twins with Marguerite Schneider. The twins are listed in the Lemberg records as "fils natural", and given the surname Schneider. Pierre is listed in the records as being the father. The couple went on to have my Great Grandmother in 1853 and another son in 1855, both with the surname Schneider, and listed the same way in the records. Then in 1856 Pierre Kriegel and Marguerite Schneider finally married. In the marriage record, the church legitimized all 4 children that were born prior to the marriage. It seems very unlikely to me that the Catholic Church, let alone the local citizens, would have been ok with all of these illegitimate births. I would think that they would have been ostracized from the community. Could there have been another reason they were not married earlier?  Could the reason have to do with Pierre being illegitimate himself? I would love to hear what you all think about this story. Thank You All Steve Wall

Steve, I'm sure someone will have a more complete answer than I can provide, but I have seen similar notions in German Catholic church records. "Fils natural" translates (I believe) to "natural child"--a child born outside of marriage. The birth register I saw listed a child as "illegitimate" ("unehelich"), with both the father's and mother's names listed. But there was a notation to the record (in the margin area) indicating that the birth had been made "legitimate" by the parents' subsequent marriage. I also located a web page (in French) talking about "fils natural"-- http://www.geneafrance.org/rubrique.php?page=naturel Running it through the Google translator (I know, not the best, but gives the basics), it sounds like establishing paternity was important to allowing the child to be recognized by the state, even if it wasn't legitimate. So while I'm sure the church didn't "approve" of the circumstances regarding these children's birth, it would have still recorded the information, trying to preserve as many rights as possible for the child. Traditionally, I think the kids would have the mother's surname, even if the father was identified. I remember a mailing list conversation many years ago that mentioned something about needing parents' permission to marry (in Alsace) up to age 27 or something like that--much older than the 18 or 21 we typically have in the USA. So maybe the parents wouldn't give permission, & the kids just ignored that. I have a distant cousin whose great-grand-somethings weren't allowed to marry because "he wasn't good enough". So they got pregnant, figuring that would seal the deal. Girl's parents still said no, so he left for Chicago, made some money, and sent for/came back to get her and the baby. So there could be a LOT of different scenarios going on. Good luck! Christine, IBSSG Sure, a real job would be nice, but it would interfere with my genealogy! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephan Wall" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 6:18:23 PM Subject: [A-L] Illegitimate births? Hello everyone, I have been stumped for some time over the illegitimate birth of my 2nd Great Grandmother and I want to hear what you all think. The family was from Lemberg in the Moselle Department of Lorraine. The father, Pierre Kriegel, born in 1828, was himself illegitimate. The record of his birth in the Parish Register listed him as "fils natural" as opposed to illegitimate, with no father listed. What is the significance of the term "fils natural" ? Why wouldn't they use "Illegitimate" as I have seen in so many other Catholic Parishes? It is what happened next that really confused me. In 1851 Pierre fathered twins with Marguerite Schneider. The twins are listed in the Lemberg records as "fils natural", and given the surname Schneider. Pierre is listed in the records as being the father. The couple went on to have my Great Grandmother in 1853 and another son in 1855, both with the surname Schneider, and listed the same way in the records. Then in 1856 Pierre Kriegel and Marguerite Schneider finally married. In the marriage record, the church legitimized all 4 children that were born prior to the marriage. It seems very unlikely to me that the Catholic Church, let alone the local citizens, would have been ok with all of these illegitimate births. I would think that they would have been ostracized from the community. Could there have been another reason they were not married earlier? Could the reason have to do with Pierre being illegitimate himself? I would love to hear what you all think about this story. Thank You All Steve Wall -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message