Sometimes the couple just had to wait until they had enough money to marry. I think there was a marriage tax of some sort. I don't think this was so unusual. There is a woman in our family who had 5 children, no father ever mentioned, all who have their mother's maiden name. Each time the father of this woman goes to the village to record their births. I can just imagine the shame of saying AGAIN, my unmarried daughter had another child. When she came to the united states she declared herself a widow. The children do not give father's names on the marriage certificates. I'll never know who the father(s) are. Is it one father, and they never married, or 5 different fathers? I'm trying to find photos to see if the children look anything alike. Jacquie -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Stephan Wall Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 5:18 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [A-L] Illegitimate births? Hello everyone, I have been stumped for some time over the illegitimate birth of my 2nd Great Grandmother and I want to hear what you all think.  The family was from Lemberg in the Moselle Department of Lorraine. The father, Pierre Kriegel, born in 1828, was himself illegitimate. The record of his birth in the Parish Register listed him as "fils natural" as opposed to illegitimate, with no father listed. What is the significance of the term "fils natural" ? Why wouldn't they use "Illegitimate" as I have seen in so many other Catholic Parishes? It is what happened next that really confused me. In 1851 Pierre fathered twins with Marguerite Schneider. The twins are listed in the Lemberg records as "fils natural", and given the surname Schneider. Pierre is listed in the records as being the father. The couple went on to have my Great Grandmother in 1853 and another son in 1855, both with the surname Schneider, and listed the same way in the records. Then in 1856 Pierre Kriegel and Marguerite Schneider finally married. In the marriage record, the church legitimized all 4 children that were born prior to the marriage. It seems very unlikely to me that the Catholic Church, let alone the local citizens, would have been ok with all of these illegitimate births. I would think that they would have been ostracized from the community. Could there have been another reason they were not married earlier?  Could the reason have to do with Pierre being illegitimate himself? I would love to hear what you all think about this story. Thank You All Steve Wall -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message