Christine, I find it very interesting that you mention the need for parental consent, possibly up to 27. I have never heard of this before and wonder if it applies here. After all, the marriage took place after the grooms 28th birthday. And since the groom was illegitimate himself, could the fact that he had no father to consent be the problem? I have always felt that there was some sort of ordinance or rule behind all of this.  Thank You Steve  ________________________________ From: Chris Bauman <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sat, July 16, 2011 7:37:10 PM Subject: Re: [A-L] Illegitimate births? Steve, I'm sure someone will have a more complete answer than I can provide, but I have seen similar notions in German Catholic church records. "Fils natural" translates (I believe) to "natural child"--a child born outside of marriage. The birth register I saw listed a child as "illegitimate" ("unehelich"), with both the father's and mother's names listed. But there was a notation to the record (in the margin area) indicating that the birth had been made "legitimate" by the parents' subsequent marriage. I also located a web page (in French) talking about "fils natural"-- http://www.geneafrance.org/rubrique.php?page=naturel Running it through the Google translator (I know, not the best, but gives the basics), it sounds like establishing paternity was important to allowing the child to be recognized by the state, even if it wasn't legitimate. So while I'm sure the church didn't "approve" of the circumstances regarding these children's birth, it would have still recorded the information, trying to preserve as many rights as possible for the child. Traditionally, I think the kids would have the mother's surname, even if the father was identified. I remember a mailing list conversation many years ago that mentioned something about needing parents' permission to marry (in Alsace) up to age 27 or something like that--much older than the 18 or 21 we typically have in the USA. So maybe the parents wouldn't give permission, & the kids just ignored that. I have a distant cousin whose great-grand-somethings weren't allowed to marry because "he wasn't good enough". So they got pregnant, figuring that would seal the deal. Girl's parents still said no, so he left for Chicago, made some money, and sent for/came back to get her and the baby. So there could be a LOT of different scenarios going on. Good luck! Christine, IBSSG Sure, a real job would be nice, but it would interfere with my genealogy! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephan Wall" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 6:18:23 PM Subject: [A-L] Illegitimate births? Hello everyone, I have been stumped for some time over the illegitimate birth of my 2nd Great Grandmother and I want to hear what you all think. The family was from Lemberg in the Moselle Department of Lorraine. The father, Pierre Kriegel, born in 1828, was himself illegitimate. The record of his birth in the Parish Register listed him as "fils natural" as opposed to illegitimate, with no father listed. What is the significance of the term "fils natural" ? Why wouldn't they use "Illegitimate" as I have seen in so many other Catholic Parishes? It is what happened next that really confused me. In 1851 Pierre fathered twins with Marguerite Schneider. The twins are listed in the Lemberg records as "fils natural", and given the surname Schneider. Pierre is listed in the records as being the father. The couple went on to have my Great Grandmother in 1853 and another son in 1855, both with the surname Schneider, and listed the same way in the records. Then in 1856 Pierre Kriegel and Marguerite Schneider finally married. In the marriage record, the church legitimized all 4 children that were born prior to the marriage. It seems very unlikely to me that the Catholic Church, let alone the local citizens, would have been ok with all of these illegitimate births. I would think that they would have been ostracized from the community. Could there have been another reason they were not married earlier? Could the reason have to do with Pierre being illegitimate himself? I would love to hear what you all think about this story. Thank You All Steve Wall -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm  ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am usually a "lurker" and not a poster, but I have been watching the comments about illegitimacy with some interest. I found the following information on www.understandingyourancestors.com and it may give yet some more insight into birth customs in Europe at the time. I have found several sites on the internet which voice the same general attitude about such births in that time period. I have found in my own research that the 'illegitimate' birth status falls into 3 categories: those children NEVER legitimized (parents never married); marriages that occurred AFTER conception but BEFORE the child was born (usually considered legitimate from birth); and marriages that occurred AFTER the child was born (child born illegitimate, but "legitimized" after the parents finally married). In general, there was not as much stigma as one would think, to being born to a couple who were not married at the time of conception. "Illegitimacy was a common occurrence in Western Europe in the 1700 and 1800s, although rates varied widely. Children conceived before marriage were much more common. For example, while only two to four percent of births in England in the late 1700s were illegitimate, thirty-seven percent of first births to a couple followed pre-marital conception. Rates varied from place to place. In 1820, illegitimacy rates in Germany as a whole fell just under twelve percent of all live births. In 1850, about seven percent of births in France were illegitimate, while eleven percent of those in Denmark were. Despite the abundance of illegitimacy, children born to unmarried parents still experienced some setbacks early in life. For one thing, laws often discriminated against them. In many areas, illegitimate children couldn't inherit property. However, if the parents married later many of the limitations didn't apply anymore. Illegitimate children also had a higher infant mortality rate. Illegitimacy in the 1700 and 1800s took on a much different appearance than illegitimacy today. Although it was common for couples who weren't married to have children, it was uncommon for these couples not to marry eventually. In essence, many illegitimate children were born into family units, although their families lacked the official blessing of the state church. These couples often lived together and considered themselves families at the time of the child's birth. Couples delayed marriages for several reasons. Sometimes, they didn't have the money to pay the marriage fee. Other times, the church was far away or the pastor wasn't easily accessible. Some German states, in an effort to control the booming population, placed legal restrictions on marriage, making it more difficult. And sometimes, the couple simply didn't feel that much concern about whether marriage or children came first. Peasant society had its own marriage customs apart from the customs of the state church. In earlier times, the community had viewed living together, making a commitment to one another, and especially having children as basically equivalent to getting married. Despite valiant efforts by churches, stamping out traditions and convincing people to first perform the ceremony in a church proved difficult. Karen Researching GAUNY, GAUNEY in France

I have posted this to the Alsace-Lorraine list before, though not recently. It seems like the appropriate time to repeat the post. The legal age of majority in France was set in 1803 at 21 years (lowered in 1974 to 18 years). However, there was an exception in the case of marriage: a man younger than 25 (and a woman younger than 21) needed the consent of their parents in order to marry. If there was disagreement between the parents, it was sufficient to have consent of the father. If one parent was dead or incapable of indicating consent, the consent of the remaining parent was sufficient. If both parents were dead or incapable of indicating consent, the grandparents took their place. Even after having reached 25 (21 for women) it was still required for the prospective bride and groom to make a formal, respectful request to their parents for their counsel regarding the marriage -- this was necessary until the groom had reached 30 and the bride 25. If the parents were opposed to the marriage, this formal request was required to be repeated two more times, once a month. One month after a third unsuccessful request the marriage could go ahead. And even after a prospective groom had reached 30 he was still required to make this formal request to his parents. In the event of an objection on the part of his parents he could go ahead with the marriage one month later. If the parents and grandparents were all dead or all incapable of indicating consent, it was necessary for anyone younger than 21 to obtain consent of the conseil de famille. There were stiff penalties for civil officials who didn't enforce these regulations. The conseil de famille was composed of a justice of the peace and six blood relatives or relatives by marriage, half from the father's side and half from the mother's side. (There were more complex regulations for the composition of the group, but this is the basic idea.) This is all from Le Code Civil (also known as the Code Napoléon), the body of French civil law first promulgated in 1803. I have a 1997 edition, which includes the current text as well as that of all the superseded portions. >> Robert Behra

Since this topic has been getting quite a lot of attention recently I thought there might be some interest in a book I first recommended to this list in 2000: Culture, religion and demographic behaviour : Catholics and Lutherans in Alsace, 1750-1870, by Kevin McQuillan (Montreal : McGill-Queen's University Press, ©1999; ISBN 0773518606; Liverpool University Press ISBN 0853238642) You can read the publisher's description at: http://catdir.loc.gov/catdir/enhancements/fy1001/2001334356-d.html You can find a copy in a library near you at: http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/40813680 Chapter four of the book (p. [78]-101) is titled "Illegitimacy and bridal pregnancy". The first sentence in this chapter: "Sexual relations outside marriage, and the births that might be expected to follow in a setting where contraception was limited, were far from rare in Alsace, particularly in the aftermath of the French Revolution." Alsace was near the top in terms of rural illegitimacy among regions in France. The last sentence in this chapter: "Rising rates of illegitimacy and bridal pregnancy were, I believe, one part of the new demographic regime that came to characterize the Lutheran community of Alsace in the nineteenth century." Overall the book makes for very dry reading, as it is full of statistics (with a 15-page appendix titled "Issues of data quality and method"), but if you have a serious interest in the lives of everyday Catholics and Lutherans in Alsace during this period it would be worth your time to find a copy. Robert Behra

I don't think I was on the list in 2000. If you can't find it in a local library do what I did. I also have instances of pre-marriage births in my ancestral research, I recently found the reference to this book. If you can't find it in your library, try what I did. Google "illegitimacy Alsace" and the google books reference came up. You can read more pages there. I would suppose you could type in instead of "ill ... Alsace" another topic. I did it the other day for weddings. Remember Lutherans are saved by grace alone. Smile even if you aren't one. Cf the Lutheran mention below. Gloria I On Aug 1, 2011, at 1:17 PM, [email protected] wrote: > Since this topic has been getting quite a lot of attention recently I > thought there might be some interest in a book I first recommended to > this list in 2000: > > Culture, religion and demographic behaviour : Catholics and Lutherans > in Alsace, 1750-1870, by Kevin McQuillan (Montreal : McGill-Queen's > University Press, ©1999; ISBN 0773518606; Liverpool University Press > ISBN 0853238642) > > You can read the publisher's description at: > > http://catdir.loc.gov/catdir/enhancements/fy1001/2001334356-d.html > > You can find a copy in a library near you at: > > http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/40813680 > > Chapter four of the book (p. [78]-101) is titled "Illegitimacy and > bridal pregnancy". The first sentence in this chapter: > > "Sexual relations outside marriage, and the births that might be > expected to follow in a setting where contraception was limited, were > far from rare in Alsace, particularly in the aftermath of the French > Revolution." Alsace was near the top in terms of rural illegitimacy > among regions in France. > > The last sentence in this chapter: > > "Rising rates of illegitimacy and bridal pregnancy were, I believe, > one > part of the new demographic regime that came to characterize the > Lutheran community of Alsace in the nineteenth century." > > Overall the book makes for very dry reading, as it is full of > statistics (with a 15-page appendix titled "Issues of data quality and > method"), but if you have a serious interest in the lives of everyday > Catholics and Lutherans in Alsace during this period it would be worth > your time to find a copy. > > Robert Behra > > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message