I should have researched before answering that question. A Meier was a "free farmer". An owner of land or collector of land rents with serfs attached. So the term "Fürstl. Meiers", should really translate as "Princely Free Farmer". I would tend to think of this as being a much larger estate, or something more than a Meier. The term applying to the person and not the land as I was assuming. But, the French system seems to be different from the German system. They apparently had actual landowners, who owned the land outright and not owing any duties to the King (mostly). So, I'm not sure how to move this German term to the French system. Aida, you seem to have some knowledge on the subject. Would you expand on it some? Brian On Fri, July 1, 2011 8:37 am, Aida Kraus wrote: > A princely farmer is a "free farmer"....meaning that they were no serfs. > These free farmers were free of taxes and sometimes military duty, > because > they usually were instrumental in watching borders between estates or > States. There are different laws in all areas, meaning it was different > in > Bohemia versus Bavaria, or Baden and Hessen and changed with the > potentates. > I.e. if these border dwellers were for instance under Austria Hungarian > Regime, the Imperium, or France. > Aida > > On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 6:38 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> More likely it is identifying: a prince's estate "princely estate", the >> name of a military regiment, or an actual prince. The first one >> indicating >> a serfdom situation, and the most likely candidate for an answer to your >> question. >> >> Brian >> >> On Fri, July 1, 2011 7:47 am, [email protected] wrote: >> > Would "Fürstl. Meiers" mean "Princely Farmer" , from a 1783 record? >> > >> > Thanks. >> > >> >> >> -- >> Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Brian, I am not familiar with the System in Alsace Lorraine, because my expertise is the Austrian Hungarian Bohemian lands. There the King granted farmers, who lived along the Bavarian border, freedom of taxes for the service of watching the deeply wooded border between Bavaria and Bohemia. We are talking here about the Boehmerwald on the Bohemian side and across the Mountain the Bayrische Wald towards the West. To this day there exist a few areas of virgin forest and one can imagine that in the Middle Ages this must have been impenetrable even for the military; so the resident farmers who had settled there were given a "freeman's" status to watch the area. This is part of my family's history, and I have had a hard time to get at the legal aspect of this, because this law seemed to have been granted to the estate rather than the individual owner, or lets say the owner of that estate was given that hereditary right. Not having to pay taxes and the right to bear arms was a great privilege. The size of the farm was not as important as the location how it was situation geographically along the border. There were quite a few free farmers among them, and some of them were not even directly living at the border but quite a few kms inland. All my other ancestors were burghers of cities, so I was very familiar with that aspect; but here again, you have to know each city's laws, because there is no uniform rule. But I found that in all cases it was a grant to the city made by either the King (called Stadtrecht) or by the Bishop, depending who was the owner of that land and these rights had to be renewed with every new potentate for recognition of that special privilege. It entailed Marketing Days, defence, fire brigades, watchman duty, and one had to be a real estate owner in order to acquire Master Craftsman status because apprentices had to be housed at the Master and were given room and board during their training. Tradesmen, Masters of Crafts and Builders were often members of the city council or Burgermasters. Whenever you find a notation on a birth, wedding or death certificate, where it says: Baker and Burgher, or Burgher and Linenweaver, or House Owner and Burgher.... or any such combination.... you can be sure that your family were long time residents in that town and you have a "fertile" harvest of documents from that city's church register. Get the Microfilm from the LDS and take your digital camera with you and you have permanent records which are certified documents. I have seen so many errors on published family trees, that do not copy them. I always try to get my own records. Aida On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 7:44 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > I should have researched before answering that question. > > A Meier was a "free farmer". An owner of land or collector of land rents > with serfs attached. So the term "Fürstl. Meiers", should really translate > as "Princely Free Farmer". I would tend to think of this as being a much > larger estate, or something more than a Meier. The term applying to the > person and not the land as I was assuming. > > But, the French system seems to be different from the German system. They > apparently had actual landowners, who owned the land outright and not > owing any duties to the King (mostly). So, I'm not sure how to move this > German term to the French system. > > Aida, you seem to have some knowledge on the subject. Would you expand on > it some? > > Brian > > On Fri, July 1, 2011 8:37 am, Aida Kraus wrote: > > A princely farmer is a "free farmer"....meaning that they were no serfs. > > These free farmers were free of taxes and sometimes military duty, > > because > > they usually were instrumental in watching borders between estates or > > States. There are different laws in all areas, meaning it was different > > in > > Bohemia versus Bavaria, or Baden and Hessen and changed with the > > potentates. > > I.e. if these border dwellers were for instance under Austria Hungarian > > Regime, the Imperium, or France. > > Aida > > > > On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 6:38 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> More likely it is identifying: a prince's estate "princely estate", the > >> name of a military regiment, or an actual prince. The first one > >> indicating > >> a serfdom situation, and the most likely candidate for an answer to your > >> question. > >> > >> Brian > >> > >> On Fri, July 1, 2011 7:47 am, [email protected] wrote: > >> > Would "Fürstl. Meiers" mean "Princely Farmer" , from a 1783 record? > >> > > >> > Thanks. > >> > > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > -- > > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Fürstl(icher) Meyer = farmer administrating a farm belonging to a lord, here a Fürst = prince. Why make things complicated when they are simple? Etienne Le 1 juil. 11 à 16:44, [email protected] a écrit : > I should have researched before answering that question. > > A Meier was a "free farmer". An owner of land or collector of land > rents > with serfs attached. So the term "Fürstl. Meiers", should really > translate > as "Princely Free Farmer". I would tend to think of this as being a > much > larger estate, or something more than a Meier. The term applying to > the > person and not the land as I was assuming. > > But, the French system seems to be different from the German system. > They > apparently had actual landowners, who owned the land outright and not > owing any duties to the King (mostly). So, I'm not sure how to move > this > German term to the French system. > > Aida, you seem to have some knowledge on the subject. Would you > expand on > it some? > > Brian > > On Fri, July 1, 2011 8:37 am, Aida Kraus wrote: >> A princely farmer is a "free farmer"....meaning that they were no >> serfs. >> These free farmers were free of taxes and sometimes military duty, >> because >> they usually were instrumental in watching borders between estates or >> States. There are different laws in all areas, meaning it was >> different >> in >> Bohemia versus Bavaria, or Baden and Hessen and changed with the >> potentates. >> I.e. if these border dwellers were for instance under Austria >> Hungarian >> Regime, the Imperium, or France. >> Aida >> >> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 6:38 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> More likely it is identifying: a prince's estate "princely >>> estate", the >>> name of a military regiment, or an actual prince. The first one >>> indicating >>> a serfdom situation, and the most likely candidate for an answer >>> to your >>> question. >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> On Fri, July 1, 2011 7:47 am, [email protected] wrote: >>>> Would "Fürstl. Meiers" mean "Princely Farmer" , from a 1783 record? >>>> >>>> Thanks.

No Etienne, there are farmers who OWN the estate and provide services to the Prince! Aida On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 9:48 AM, Etienne Herrbach < [email protected]> wrote: > Fürstl(icher) Meyer = farmer administrating a farm belonging to a > lord, here a Fürst = prince. > > Why make things complicated when they are simple? > > Etienne > > > > > > Le 1 juil. 11 à 16:44, [email protected] a écrit : > > > I should have researched before answering that question. > > > > A Meier was a "free farmer". An owner of land or collector of land > > rents > > with serfs attached. So the term "Fürstl. Meiers", should really > > translate > > as "Princely Free Farmer". I would tend to think of this as being a > > much > > larger estate, or something more than a Meier. The term applying to > > the > > person and not the land as I was assuming. > > > > But, the French system seems to be different from the German system. > > They > > apparently had actual landowners, who owned the land outright and not > > owing any duties to the King (mostly). So, I'm not sure how to move > > this > > German term to the French system. > > > > Aida, you seem to have some knowledge on the subject. Would you > > expand on > > it some? > > > > Brian > > > > On Fri, July 1, 2011 8:37 am, Aida Kraus wrote: > >> A princely farmer is a "free farmer"....meaning that they were no > >> serfs. > >> These free farmers were free of taxes and sometimes military duty, > >> because > >> they usually were instrumental in watching borders between estates or > >> States. There are different laws in all areas, meaning it was > >> different > >> in > >> Bohemia versus Bavaria, or Baden and Hessen and changed with the > >> potentates. > >> I.e. if these border dwellers were for instance under Austria > >> Hungarian > >> Regime, the Imperium, or France. > >> Aida > >> > >> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 6:38 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >>> More likely it is identifying: a prince's estate "princely > >>> estate", the > >>> name of a military regiment, or an actual prince. The first one > >>> indicating > >>> a serfdom situation, and the most likely candidate for an answer > >>> to your > >>> question. > >>> > >>> Brian > >>> > >>> On Fri, July 1, 2011 7:47 am, [email protected] wrote: > >>>> Would "Fürstl. Meiers" mean "Princely Farmer" , from a 1783 record? > >>>> > >>>> Thanks. > > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Sure Aida, there were farmers who owned their land. However, I maintain that "Fürstlicher Meyer" (the initial question asked by Paul) refers to an officer who administrated an estate owned by the lord (here a Fürst). At least in Alsace under the "old regime" (before 1789), the region this list is about (with Lorraine). Sources: - F.J. Himly, 1983, Dictionnaire ancien alsacien - Français: << Meier, Meyer: intendant seigneurial. Meierrei, Meierhof = métairie.>> - R. Oberlé & L. Sittler, 1982, Le Haut-Rhin, Dictionnaire des communes: << Meier, Meyer: officier du seigneur. (...) Il décide, juge et régit au nom du seigneur territorial.>> Etienne living in Alsace Le 1 juil. 11 à 20:16, Aida Kraus a écrit : > No Etienne, there are farmers who OWN the estate and provide > services to the > Prince! > Aida > > On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 9:48 AM, Etienne Herrbach < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Fürstl(icher) Meyer = farmer administrating a farm belonging to a >> lord, here a Fürst = prince. >> >> Why make things complicated when they are simple? >> >> Etienne >> >> >> Le 1 juil. 11 à 16:44, [email protected] a écrit : >> >>> I should have researched before answering that question. >>> >>> A Meier was a "free farmer". An owner of land or collector of land >>> rents with serfs attached. So the term "Fürstl. Meiers", should >>> really >>> translate as "Princely Free Farmer". I would tend to think of this >>> as being a >>> much larger estate, or something more than a Meier. The term >>> applying to >>> the person and not the land as I was assuming. >>> >>> But, the French system seems to be different from the German system. >>> They apparently had actual landowners, who owned the land outright >>> and not >>> owing any duties to the King (mostly). So, I'm not sure how to move >>> this German term to the French system. >>> >>> Aida, you seem to have some knowledge on the subject. Would you >>> expand on it some? >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> On Fri, July 1, 2011 8:37 am, Aida Kraus wrote: >>>> A princely farmer is a "free farmer"....meaning that they were no >>>> serfs. These free farmers were free of taxes and sometimes >>>> military duty, >>>> because they usually were instrumental in watching borders >>>> between estates or >>>> States. There are different laws in all areas, meaning it was >>>> different in Bohemia versus Bavaria, or Baden and Hessen and >>>> changed with the >>>> potentates. I.e. if these border dwellers were for instance under >>>> Austria >>>> Hungarian Regime, the Imperium, or France. >>>> Aida >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 6:38 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> More likely it is identifying: a prince's estate "princely >>>>> estate", the name of a military regiment, or an actual prince. >>>>> The first one >>>>> indicating a serfdom situation, and the most likely candidate >>>>> for an answer >>>>> to your question. >>>>> >>>>> Brian >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, July 1, 2011 7:47 am, [email protected] wrote: >>>>>> Would "Fürstl. Meiers" mean "Princely Farmer" , from a 1783 >>>>>> record? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks.