Le 21 mars 13 à 00:38, Brian J Densmore a écrit : >> Audrey, >> >> the child was born "heutte ... um Elff uhren" = today at 11 (likely >> AM, though not mentionned). There is clearly a "l" after the E, then >> the double F (compare wonhafft = residing) > > Well, I don't know where you "clearly" get an "l" out of that chicken > scratch, but the "double f" is definitely the best explanation here, > or a > "double s", which makes no sense and can thus be rejected. There > really > were only two choices here, Elff of Erst. I just couldn't see an "l". And yet, there is an L. The curve is obvious. 100 % sure. >> In German "Uhr" = hour (but also "watch", which doesnt make any sense >> here) >> >> OK, "Uhren" instead of "uhr", but this record is really full of >> mistakes, e.g. "heutte" for "heute", "nitterkomen" for >> "niedergekommen", "Dagner" for "Tagner".... in this awkward German >> mixed up with Alsatian expressions. > > I disagree strongly here. This looks very clearly to be the writing > of a > Low German speaker. There are German dialects that use these forms. I > wouldn't call them mistakes or awkward. It's clearly wrong for High > German. What is Low/High German? This record is from Alsace not fro northern Germany, and as a native Alsatian speaker (Alemanic linguistic group) and having read thousands of Alsatian records, I maintain that this record is written in a bad German with a strong Alsatian (Alemanic) accent. > Notice the consistent use of the initial "d" for "t". Which might also > account for grammatical differences. But I'm not an expert on Low > German > or High German grammar, but to me this is clearly written in a Low > German > or possibly Middle German form. As I wrote several times here, the confusions D/T, B/P, G/K, V/F (= lenition) are typical of Alsatian accent. See e.g. "Debartement". Here, your name would be pronounced something between Brian and Prian. ;^) Edienne Nadife Alsatian sbeager

Le 20 mars 13 à 01:16, Rick Toothman a écrit : > On 3/19/2013 6:38 PM, Audrey Shields Hancock wrote: >> If anyone can continue to help me, I would appreciate again. >> >> This appears to be a birth record written in German (perhaps) for >> Johannes >> Lehmann (written on side as Leman). His parents should be Michel >> Lehmann & >> Catharina Schmitter. I could read Catharina Schmitter but can't read >> anything else. >> >> Uploaded at http://tinyurl.com/b6y6r8c >> >> >> Audrey (Lehmann-Shields) Hancock >> >> >> > 26 June 1808, born today to Michael Lehmann, 49, farmer, and his wife > Catharina Schmitter, a son Johannes -- hour is given but I have no > idea > what the numerical adjective before it is supposed to be, but it's > reported at 2PM on 26 June. Witnesses are Antoni Hatten, 40, farmer, > and Ignatz Hann, 29, Dagner [=Tagner, or Tagloehner/journalier/day > laborer]. Audrey, the child was born "heutte ... um Elff uhren" = today at 11 (likely AM, though not mentionned). There is clearly a "l" after the E, then the double F (compare wonhafft = residing) In German "Uhr" = hour (but also "watch", which doesnt make any sense here) OK, "Uhren" instead of "uhr", but this record is really full of mistakes, e.g. "heutte" for "heute", "nitterkomen" for "niedergekommen", "Dagner" for "Tagner".... in this awkward German mixed up with Alsatian expressions. First witness was Antoni HALTER. Etienne German and Alsatian speaker

> > > Audrey, > > the child was born "heutte ... um Elff uhren" = today at 11 (likely > AM, though not mentionned). There is clearly a "l" after the E, then > the double F (compare wonhafft = residing) Well, I don't know where you "clearly" get an "l" out of that chicken scratch, but the "double f" is definitely the best explanation here, or a "double s", which makes no sense and can thus be rejected. There really were only two choices here, Elff of Erst. I just couldn't see an "l". > In German "Uhr" = hour (but also "watch", which doesnt make any sense > here) > > OK, "Uhren" instead of "uhr", but this record is really full of > mistakes, e.g. "heutte" for "heute", "nitterkomen" for > "niedergekommen", "Dagner" for "Tagner".... in this awkward German > mixed up with Alsatian expressions. I disagree strongly here. This looks very clearly to be the writing of a Low German speaker. There are German dialects that use these forms. I wouldn't call them mistakes or awkward. It's clearly wrong for High German. Notice the consistent use of the initial "d" for "t". Which might also account for grammatical differences. But I'm not an expert on Low German or High German grammar, but to me this is clearly written in a Low German or possibly Middle German form. Brian

> > Lost in Translation > Image 6 > http://tinyurl.com/b6y6r8c > > > 19 March 2013, Alsace-Lorraine List: Translator: Rick Toothman indicates, > "...hour is given but I have no idea what the numerical adjective before > it > is supposed to be, but it's reported at 2PM on 26 June." > > 20 March 2013, Alsace-Lorraine List: Brian Densmore responded 20 March > 2013, > "The time looks to me to be 'erst uhren', which I would take to mean > 'first > watches', and not a definite time." > > Does anyone else have any additional thoughts? I should clarify Rick is correct, it was record at 2pm. My response was in regards to the numerical adjective he wasn't sure of. I can't be positive myself, but it clearly begins with an "E", appears to have compact "r" next, and I'm fairly certain the next letter is an "s". the last letter really doesn't look like the rest of this writer's "t"s, but it's still possible it is a "t". Hence I conclude it looks like "erst". I'm fairly certain the next word is "uhren" and not the expected "Uhr", and no other indicator of morning, afternoon, or night in this part. Both factors which I think support the conclusion the first word it "first" and the translation to "first watches". Brian > > Thank to both Rick & Brian and all the other translators for their > dedication to helping me and our Lehmann researchers with the French and > German recordings about the LEHMANN family. Your kindness continues to be > appreciated. > > Audrey > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Lost in Translation Image 6 http://tinyurl.com/b6y6r8c 19 March 2013, Alsace-Lorraine List: Translator: Rick Toothman indicates, "...hour is given but I have no idea what the numerical adjective before it is supposed to be, but it's reported at 2PM on 26 June." 20 March 2013, Alsace-Lorraine List: Brian Densmore responded 20 March 2013, "The time looks to me to be 'erst uhren', which I would take to mean 'first watches', and not a definite time." Does anyone else have any additional thoughts? Thank to both Rick & Brian and all the other translators for their dedication to helping me and our Lehmann researchers with the French and German recordings about the LEHMANN family. Your kindness continues to be appreciated. Audrey

The time looks to me to be "erst uhren", which I would take to mean "first watches", and not a definite time. But I'm neither a native German nor French speaker. Brian > On 3/19/2013 6:38 PM, Audrey Shields Hancock wrote: >> If anyone can continue to help me, I would appreciate again. >> >> This appears to be a birth record written in German (perhaps) for >> Johannes >> Lehmann (written on side as Leman). His parents should be Michel >> Lehmann & >> Catharina Schmitter. I could read Catharina Schmitter but can't read >> anything else. >> >> Uploaded at http://tinyurl.com/b6y6r8c >> >> >> Audrey (Lehmann-Shields) Hancock >> >> >> > 26 June 1808, born today to Michael Lehmann, 49, farmer, and his wife > Catharina Schmitter, a son Johannes -- hour is given but I have no idea > what the numerical adjective before it is supposed to be, but it's > reported at 2PM on 26 June. Witnesses are Antoni Hatten, 40, farmer, > and Ignatz Hann, 29, Dagner [=Tagner, or Tagloehner/journalier/day > laborer]. > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

On 3/19/2013 6:38 PM, Audrey Shields Hancock wrote: > If anyone can continue to help me, I would appreciate again. > > This appears to be a birth record written in German (perhaps) for Johannes > Lehmann (written on side as Leman). His parents should be Michel Lehmann & > Catharina Schmitter. I could read Catharina Schmitter but can't read > anything else. > > Uploaded at http://tinyurl.com/b6y6r8c > > > Audrey (Lehmann-Shields) Hancock > > > 26 June 1808, born today to Michael Lehmann, 49, farmer, and his wife Catharina Schmitter, a son Johannes -- hour is given but I have no idea what the numerical adjective before it is supposed to be, but it's reported at 2PM on 26 June. Witnesses are Antoni Hatten, 40, farmer, and Ignatz Hann, 29, Dagner [=Tagner, or Tagloehner/journalier/day laborer].

If anyone can continue to help me, I would appreciate again. This appears to be a birth record written in German (perhaps) for Johannes Lehmann (written on side as Leman). His parents should be Michel Lehmann & Catharina Schmitter. I could read Catharina Schmitter but can't read anything else. Uploaded at http://tinyurl.com/b6y6r8c Audrey (Lehmann-Shields) Hancock

Audrey, Schreiner = joiner. Etienne Le 18 mars 13 à 21:36, Audrey Shields Hancock a écrit : > > Thank you so very much, Rick Toothman. > > Appreciate this German translation for Catharina Lehmann. > > Can you or anyone else tell me what a "Schreiner" is? > > My sincere appreciation and very grateful. > Audrey > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Rick > Toothman > Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 4:01 PM > To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [A-L] Lost in Translation: 5th record: Another Catharina > Lehmann > > > On 3/18/2013 2:37 PM, Audrey Shields Hancock wrote: >> Hello, >> >> Lost in Translation: And, yet another Catharina Lehmann >> http://tinyurl.com/b6y6r8c >> >> I'm not sure if this record is written in French or German. >> >> What I can make out is that there is yet another Catharina Lehmann. >> I believe she was born perhaps in 1810. >> >> This one is a daughter of Michel Lehmann and his 2nd wife, Catharina >> (Schmitter) Lehmann. >> >> I would be grateful for any additional help. >> Audrey > It's in German, dated 13 January 1810 [Ein dausend achthundert und > zoehn, den dreyzoehnten Dag ins Monnath Jenner]. Michael Lehmann, 51, > farmer, is the declarant and father, by his wife Catharina Schmitter, > both resident here. Child is named Catharina, born at 4:00 today. > Witnesses Jacob Scheiber, 24, farmer, and Matthias Weiss, 25, > Schreiner, > but image shows only the signatures of the father and of Schlosser, > the > maire. > -- > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

On 3/18/2013 4:36 PM, Audrey Shields Hancock wrote: > Thank you so very much, Rick Toothman. > > Appreciate this German translation for Catharina Lehmann. > > Can you or anyone else tell me what a "Schreiner" is? > > My sincere appreciation and very grateful. > Audrey > > > A Schreiner is a joiner in English. It derives from scrinarius, the Latin name for the same occupation. The French term is menuisier.

Thank you so very much, Rick Toothman. Appreciate this German translation for Catharina Lehmann. Can you or anyone else tell me what a "Schreiner" is? My sincere appreciation and very grateful. Audrey -----Original Message----- From: alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Rick Toothman Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 4:01 PM To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [A-L] Lost in Translation: 5th record: Another Catharina Lehmann On 3/18/2013 2:37 PM, Audrey Shields Hancock wrote: > Hello, > > Lost in Translation: And, yet another Catharina Lehmann > http://tinyurl.com/b6y6r8c > > I'm not sure if this record is written in French or German. > > What I can make out is that there is yet another Catharina Lehmann. > I believe she was born perhaps in 1810. > > This one is a daughter of Michel Lehmann and his 2nd wife, Catharina > (Schmitter) Lehmann. > > I would be grateful for any additional help. > Audrey It's in German, dated 13 January 1810 [Ein dausend achthundert und zoehn, den dreyzoehnten Dag ins Monnath Jenner]. Michael Lehmann, 51, farmer, is the declarant and father, by his wife Catharina Schmitter, both resident here. Child is named Catharina, born at 4:00 today. Witnesses Jacob Scheiber, 24, farmer, and Matthias Weiss, 25, Schreiner, but image shows only the signatures of the father and of Schlosser, the maire. --

On 3/18/2013 2:37 PM, Audrey Shields Hancock wrote: > Hello, > > Lost in Translation: And, yet another Catharina Lehmann > http://tinyurl.com/b6y6r8c > > I'm not sure if this record is written in French or German. > > What I can make out is that there is yet another Catharina Lehmann. > I believe she was born perhaps in 1810. > > This one is a daughter of Michel Lehmann and his 2nd wife, Catharina > (Schmitter) Lehmann. > > I would be grateful for any additional help. > Audrey It's in German, dated 13 January 1810 [Ein dausend achthundert und zoehn, den dreyzoehnten Dag ins Monnath Jenner]. Michael Lehmann, 51, farmer, is the declarant and father, by his wife Catharina Schmitter, both resident here. Child is named Catharina, born at 4:00 today. Witnesses Jacob Scheiber, 24, farmer, and Matthias Weiss, 25, Schreiner, but image shows only the signatures of the father and of Schlosser, the maire.

Hello, Lost in Translation: And, yet another Catharina Lehmann http://tinyurl.com/b6y6r8c I'm not sure if this record is written in French or German. What I can make out is that there is yet another Catharina Lehmann. I believe she was born perhaps in 1810. This one is a daughter of Michel Lehmann and his 2nd wife, Catharina (Schmitter) Lehmann. I would be grateful for any additional help. Audrey

Then again there are fellows named Jean-Jacques as in Jean-Jacques Rousseau. Gloria Ishida On Mar 18, 2013, at 4:52 AM, Davies wrote: > Linda, > > Jacob Erdel and John Erdel were brothers. I know that sometimes Jacob and > John are used intermittenly. > > Rosemary > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <lilacarlhg@gmail.com> > To: <alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 12:28 AM > Subject: Re: [A-L] Erdel family > >

ancestralJacques is the French for James and one Jacques of German background would become Jacob when he immigrated. I have one Alsatian born ancestral relative like the latter. Gloria Ishida On Mar 18, 2013, at 4:52 AM, Davies wrote: > Linda, > > Jacob Erdel and John Erdel were brothers. I know that sometimes Jacob and > John are used intermittenly. > > Rosemary > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <lilacarlhg@gmail.com> > To: <alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 12:28 AM > Subject: Re: [A-L] Erdel family > > >> Rosemary, >> >> Are you certain that Jacob is not really John? >> >> >> Linda >> now in California (was Costa Rica) >> Monroe County, New York Genealogy >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monroenys >> Monroe County, New York History >> http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monroenys >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Davies >> Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 4:35 PM >> To: ALSACE-LORRAINE@rootsweb.com >> Subject: [A-L] Erdel family >> >> Hello, >> >> I'm researching the Erdel/Eitel family from Alsace, France. Johan Martin >> Eitel arrived in Philadelphia on June 22, 1803 aboard the Ship Traveller >> from Amsterdam. >> >> Records have shown me that his wife was Anna Catherina??? On November 15, >> 1803 aboard the Ship Favourite from Amsterdam, I believe his wife Cath. >> Ertel and children; Barb. Ertel; Fred Ertel; and Jacob Ertel, joined him. >> The one other child isn't with them. Was he too young to be mentioned? His >> name was John Erdel, who is my husband's great-great-grandfather. He was >> born January 30, 1802. Family members always said he was born in Alsace, >> France. Census Records also prove that is where he was born. They settled >> in >> Lehigh County, Pennsylvania. There is a Sebastian Erdel and I don't know >> if >> they are connected. >> >> There are variants of the surname: Eitel/Erdel >> >> Any help would be appreciated. >> >> Thank you, >> Rosemary C. Davies >> >> -- >> Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Gloria "Genealogy. An account of one's descent from an ancestor who did not particularly care to trace his own." Ambrose Bierce

On Sun, March 17, 2013 2:52 pm, Davies wrote: > Linda, > > Jacob Erdel and John Erdel were brothers. I know that sometimes Jacob and > John are used intermittenly. I have never seen Jacob and John used interchangeably. If so, it would be completely incorrect, and most likely the result of misunderstanding how to translate names. Jacques -> Jakobi -> Jakob -> Jacob Jean -> Joannes -> Johannes/Johan(n) -> John Some people mistakenly translate Jacques to Jack, and hence get John. But this comes from a lack of understanding the languages. Brian

That's what I thought, Jacques = Jacob and Jean = John. I know that Jean definitely is the French equivalent of John but when I looked online yesterday everything I found said that Jacques was the equivalent of James which makes no sense to me whatsoever so I hope someone on the list here can verify one way or the other! Linda now in California (was Costa Rica) Monroe County, New York Genealogy http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monroenys Monroe County, New York History http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monroenys -----Original Message----- From: Davies Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 4:55 PM To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [A-L] Erdel family I'm beginning to think there was an error on the ship manifest. I believe "Fred" that was mentioned is the error and that it should've been John. They were from France. Would parish records list them as Jacques and Jean??? Jacob and John are two separate individuals. Rosemary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian J Densmore" <brian@amason.net> To: <alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 10:14 PM Subject: Re: [A-L] Erdel family > On Sun, March 17, 2013 2:52 pm, Davies wrote: >> Linda, >> >> Jacob Erdel and John Erdel were brothers. I know that sometimes Jacob and >> John are used intermittenly. > > I have never seen Jacob and John used interchangeably. > If so, it would be completely incorrect, and most likely the result of > misunderstanding how to translate names. > > Jacques -> Jakobi -> Jakob -> Jacob > Jean -> Joannes -> Johannes/Johan(n) -> John > > Some people mistakenly translate Jacques to Jack, and hence get John. > But this comes from a lack of understanding the languages. > > Brian

I have a ton of Jean Jacques in my Wadel family which is what prompted me to ask the question! Linda now in California (was Costa Rica) Monroe County, New York Genealogy http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monroenys Monroe County, New York History http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monroenys -----Original Message----- From: gloria ishida Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 5:13 PM To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [A-L] Erdel family Then again there are fellows named Jean-Jacques as in Jean-Jacques Rousseau. Gloria Ishida On Mar 18, 2013, at 4:52 AM, Davies wrote: > Linda, > > Jacob Erdel and John Erdel were brothers. I know that sometimes Jacob and > John are used intermittenly. > > Rosemary > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <lilacarlhg@gmail.com> > To: <alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 12:28 AM > Subject: Re: [A-L] Erdel family >

I'm beginning to think there was an error on the ship manifest. I believe "Fred" that was mentioned is the error and that it should've been John. They were from France. Would parish records list them as Jacques and Jean??? Jacob and John are two separate individuals. Rosemary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian J Densmore" <brian@amason.net> To: <alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 10:14 PM Subject: Re: [A-L] Erdel family > On Sun, March 17, 2013 2:52 pm, Davies wrote: >> Linda, >> >> Jacob Erdel and John Erdel were brothers. I know that sometimes Jacob and >> John are used intermittenly. > > I have never seen Jacob and John used interchangeably. > If so, it would be completely incorrect, and most likely the result of > misunderstanding how to translate names. > > Jacques -> Jakobi -> Jakob -> Jacob > Jean -> Joannes -> Johannes/Johan(n) -> John > > Some people mistakenly translate Jacques to Jack, and hence get John. > But this comes from a lack of understanding the languages. > > Brian > > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Linda, Jacob Erdel and John Erdel were brothers. I know that sometimes Jacob and John are used intermittenly. Rosemary ----- Original Message ----- From: <lilacarlhg@gmail.com> To: <alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 12:28 AM Subject: Re: [A-L] Erdel family > Rosemary, > > Are you certain that Jacob is not really John? > > > Linda > now in California (was Costa Rica) > Monroe County, New York Genealogy > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monroenys > Monroe County, New York History > http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monroenys > > -----Original Message----- > From: Davies > Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 4:35 PM > To: ALSACE-LORRAINE@rootsweb.com > Subject: [A-L] Erdel family > > Hello, > > I'm researching the Erdel/Eitel family from Alsace, France. Johan Martin > Eitel arrived in Philadelphia on June 22, 1803 aboard the Ship Traveller > from Amsterdam. > > Records have shown me that his wife was Anna Catherina??? On November 15, > 1803 aboard the Ship Favourite from Amsterdam, I believe his wife Cath. > Ertel and children; Barb. Ertel; Fred Ertel; and Jacob Ertel, joined him. > The one other child isn't with them. Was he too young to be mentioned? His > name was John Erdel, who is my husband's great-great-grandfather. He was > born January 30, 1802. Family members always said he was born in Alsace, > France. Census Records also prove that is where he was born. They settled > in > Lehigh County, Pennsylvania. There is a Sebastian Erdel and I don't know > if > they are connected. > > There are variants of the surname: Eitel/Erdel > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Thank you, > Rosemary C. Davies > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >