Hi Stephan, don't know for Pfaltz / Palatinate, but DIET(e)MANN is common in the Sundgau, the southmost region of Alsace, cited there since 1400. Various spellings: Diedmann, Diettemann, ... It may derive from the first name Dietrich / Didier. Source: CDHF website. Etienne Le 22 mars 13 à 03:59, Stephan Wall a écrit : > This is all very interesting. I had a great grandmother that named > Margertha Dittmann. I have never been able to locate where she was > from. (most likely somewhere in Pfalz Germany)Etienne's comments > have given me a new lead to pursue. Maybe the answer lies in her name? > > Thanks > Stephan

Very interesting, Conrad. Thank you. Etienne Le 21 mars 13 à 21:16, Conrad Luhmann a écrit : > My family name is Luhmann. We came from the village of Luhdorf > named after > the river Luh. > > On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Etienne Herrbach < > etienne.herrbach@wanadoo.fr> wrote: > >> Audrey, >> >> two things: >> >> - In German, "Mann" = man (male!), as compared to "Mensch" = human. >> The ending Mann is common is two kinds of surnames: some derived from >> an occupation or function (Kauf(f)mann = merchant, Zimmermann = >> carpenter, Amtmann/Amman = various kinds of officers, ......), some >> others in (old) first names (Christmann, Hartmann, ...). Often >> written with one N. >> >> - what about LEHMANN: derived from "Lehnsmann" = vassal, owner of a >> "Lehen" = fee (feudal tenure). A very common surmane throughout >> Germanic areas. Various spellings: Leman, Lehemann, Löhmann...) >> >> >> Etienne >> >> >> >> Le 21 mars 13 à 14:45, Audrey Shields Hancock a écrit : >> >>> The original spelling of the surname was LEHMANN. My grandfather >>> always >>> insisted that his children spell the surname as such, but when my >>> grandfather's siblings left the small community Ft. Loramie (also >>> known as >>> Loramie's and Berlin), Shelby Co., OH for Dayton, Montgomery Co., OH >>> the >>> spelling of the surname became LEHMAN. My grandfather always told >>> his >>> children that the ancestors worked hard to earn the double "nn" on >>> the end >>> of the surname, and that they weren't to dishonor it. Or, was this >>> his way >>> of getting his way in maintaining the correct spelling. >>> >>> Is there anything significant in having the double "nn" on the >>> surname? I >>> have even noticed this with the spelling of Amann / Aman and others. >>> >>> My first cousin pronounces the name as Leeman and I pronounce it as >>> Layman, >>> but both of us spell it as Lehmann. I know that another branch of >>> the two >>> brothers...gg-gf, Michel, who came in 1828 and the other brother, >>> Nicolas, >>> who came about 1840 have descendants spelling the surname these two >>> ways: >>> Lehman & Layman. The brothers apparently separated after meeting in >>> Stark >>> Co., OH. Nicolas' family went to Wyandot Co., OH & Seneca Co., OH. >>> And, >>> what is interesting is that all the relatives, friends and neighbors >>> who >>> were with them in Stark Co., OH from Schirrhein eventually went to >>> various >>> cities and states....perhaps to buy their own land and to >>> establish or >>> enlarge the Catholic Churches in those areas. >>> >>> Audrey >> >> >> -- >> Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine- >> L.htm >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > -- > * > * > * > Conrad Luhmann > mangia bene, vivi felice cucina > * > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

> I too was very impressed with your website Audrey - you told the story in > an interesting way while smoothly (meaning no loss in the flow) > including those oh-so-important source citations. I forwarded the link to > another genealogist who has been struggling with that very issue. This > list > is helpful in SO many ways. :o) > > In addition, like Gloria, I am very interested in the language issue. My > Lorraine-born 2nd great grandmother married a Swiss gentleman and I have > always been curious about their prospective language barrier. This woman Lorraine-Franconian is a High West German dialect, as are the Swiss dialects. The Swiss dialects are Allemanic dialects, whereas Lorraine-Franconian is a West-Central dialect in the Franconian family. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_languages I would expect this couple understood each other without difficulty. However, it's really not easy to classify these various dialects into distinct groups there is much variation and mingling. It's all very fuzzy. Brian

Maybe these links will help a few readers learn more about the languages. Although, I'm sure both Etienne and Ewald could add much to this. These are all articles on the wide variation and complex dialectic variations of the German language(s), of which English is also a member. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorraine_Franconian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsatian_language http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_languages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_German http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language These articles are all well written, with many links to follow. I give these rather than attempt to relate the information, although I did minor in linguistics in college. Also, these articles present only one view. Not all scholars agree on these classifications. So you may find other equally authoritative and correct, yet different articles. But the language(s) of the Alsace-Lorraine region is one of the richest in Europe, if you ask me. If you're a language buff like me, you could spend hours crawling the different articles. I know I have. Language has always fascinated me. I would love to learn Alsatian. But alas, my family kept my Alsatian grandmother a secret from me for almost two decades, and I only got to know her later in life and we had so little time together. This much I can say, by the time I'd met her I already knew some French and German (most of which I have forgotten). When she would speak in her native tongue, it was Germanic, but there was also French in there, and certainly not the book German that I learned. But any German speaker would understand it, I think. She also spoke flawless French and English. But I think she learned the French in America. Alsace was Prussian when she was born and emigrated. But, I really don't know where she learned French, she may have learned French just from daily life in Prussian Alsace. Brian

Audrey and all, Audrey, I have just visited your website and congratulate you on your extensive work. The rest of you listers forgive me for writing personal background but the language aspect is relevant and also I am amazed how personal connections come from this list. I have done much research about the Cincinnati Diocese and before as two of my ancestral German speaking families came from Lorraine to Ohio in the fall of 1828. They were on their way to Cincinnati but because of a wagon breakdown in Huron County, northern Ohio, they settled there. Peter Carabin, who had already been in seminary, subsequently followed Father Fenwick to Cincinnati. Upon ordination he was assigned to a parish in rural Monroe, Michigan. With him was a native English speaking priest and he was having trouble with the French speakers of the parish, more than just language. The english speaking priest eft for other reasons. Father Carabin went on to serve in primarily French parishes as well as a German one. It's a long story and one I am writing now. My point is, both Alsatians and Lorrainians were more than likely trilingual or more depending on their education, and probably mixed up the languages. Question from your reference below. Did the Lorrainians coming to Canton speak "guttural Alsatian". Did it depend on close their original villages were close to Alsace? It seems that Father Carabin's English that he learned after coming to the US, was considered strange for awhile. His last parish was St. John's in Canton, where he served only 3 months (1853 ) as his precarious health finally forced him to retire from the ministry. How long were the Lehmann's there? I see some went to Seneca County, Ohio, also my area. I assume you have been to FamilySearch, Diocese of Toledo Ohio, Seneca County, St. Stephen's. Just glancing found the actual death record of Nicholas, whose will and death date you have, page 27 of Marriages and deaths. For any listers who have ancestors who settled in northern western Ohio, the aforementioned is an excellent resource. Audrey, write me at my address as above if you wish. Gloria Ishida On Mar 21, 2013, at 10:14 PM, Audrey Shields Hancock wrote: > Thank you, Brian and Etienne, > > I'm certainly getting a lesson in High German, Low German, French, and > gutteral Alsatian. I guess if someone knows words in the various languages > they might eventually blend them into their daily language. I can remember > reading a booklet entitled "Landmark of Catholism" as it had to do with the > history of St. John the Baptist Catholic Church in Canton, Stark Co., OH. > This involved Catholic families arriving from "Lorraine, France." It spoke > of "Most of those 'Frenchmen' spoke German or the guttural Alsatian > dialect." p. 17 >

>From the excerpt that I sent previously, evidently Canton was one of the early catalyst for drawing Catholic immigrants from France. Some sojourned for a time in Canton [Stark County, Ohio] and left perhaps to spread the Catholic religion and to establish Catholic Churches in other place or to buy land and establish homes elsewhere. Close families and friends seemed to have gone their separate ways, and with the Lehmann family, it is said that contact between brothers (Nicolas Lehmann to Wyandot & Seneca Counties, Ohio and Michel Lehmann to Shelby County, Ohio) was eventually lost. Their sister, Marie Madeleine/Mary Magdelena Lehmann had married Ignatz Zircher/Zurcher and settled in Shelby Co., OH near Michel, but their daughter (Clementena Zircher/Zurcher married Johann Petrus Courtad as his 2nd wife in Seneca County, Ohio, after getting their license in Shelby Co., Ohio.). Here is a little more Canton history: "From 1796 to 1817 there were no priests in all Ohio. Prior to that, some missionaries had travelled out of French Detroit as far east as Sandusky [Ohio]. From 1797, while still a wilderness, the Canton area had been part of Ohio's Jefferson County, but later in 1803, it was carved out as part of the newly formed Columbiana County.... Canton was laid out in 1806; and Stark County was detached from Columbiana and sprang into separate existence in 1808." "Canton St. John, where construction was begun in 1823, was the second Catholic church in northern Ohio, following the 1820 founding of tiny St. Paul the Apostle at Dungannon. ...St. John's history as a congregation, however, dates back to 1817 when itinerant priest Father Edward Fenwick said the first Mass here under the Shorb oak tree." (Dannemiller, Franklin T., "Landmark of Catholicism, St. John's Catholic Church, Canton, Ohio Sesquicentennieal 1824-1974," July, 1974, p. 4-5) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Shorb (1759-1824) is given as born in Zweibreuchen, Rheinpfalz, Germany. He is given as the first Catholic known to have settled in Canton coming from Baltimore. His wife was Catherine Gross (1758-1841). (Dannemiller, Franklin T., "Landmark of Catholicism, St. John's Catholic Church, Canton, Ohio Sesquicentennieal 1824-1974," July, 1974, p. 6)

Hi, Gloria and Interested Others, To answer this question of yours: Question from your reference below. Did the Lorrainians coming to Canton speak "guttural Alsatian". Did it depend on close their original villages were close to Alsace? I don't know the answer. Here is what the booklet says: p. 5 On February 10, 1828, U. S. Catholic Miscellany stated that 'thirty Catholic families arrived from Lorraine, France at Canton, their chief motive in selecting this spot being the convenience of a Catholic church." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ p. 17 "Though St. John's began as a congregation in 1823 with only fifteen families, in 1828 alone thirty Catholic families arrived from Lorraine, France. Most of those "Frenchmen" spoke German or the gutteral Alsatian dialect." "Relations between the Germans and the English/Irish were not always cordial; and it's said for many years no Irishman could graduate fromt he German-dominated diocesan seminary." "After twenty years, St. John's German-speaking parishioners decided they wanted their native language perserved in sermons, confessions and schools. They thus decided to create a new parish, St. Peter's, and began the process by having father John H. Luhr conduct separate services in German at St. John's while he resided with Father J.J. Doherty there from September 1844 until June 1847. Meanwhile, St. Peter's was being constructed under Father Luhr direction." {dannemiller, Franklin T., "Landmark of Catholicism, St. John's Catholic Church, Canton, Ohio Sesquicentennieal 1824-1974," July, 1974) -----Original Message----- From: gloria ishida [mailto:gfb-ishida@gol.com] Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 11:15 PM To: AudreyHancock1939@sbcglobal.net; alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [A-L] Lost in Translation: High German, Low German, French, & Alsatian Audrey and all, Audrey, I have just visited your website and congratulate you on your extensive work. The rest of you listers forgive me for writing personal background but the language aspect is relevant and also I am amazed how personal connections come from this list. I have done much research about the Cincinnati Diocese and before as two of my ancestral German speaking families came from Lorraine to Ohio in the fall of 1828. They were on their way to Cincinnati but because of a wagon breakdown in Huron County, northern Ohio, they settled there. Peter Carabin, who had already been in seminary, subsequently followed Father Fenwick to Cincinnati. Upon ordination he was assigned to a parish in rural Monroe, Michigan. With him was a native English speaking priest and he was having trouble with the French speakers of the parish, more than just language. The english speaking priest eft for other reasons. Father Carabin went on to serve in primarily French parishes as well as a German one. It's a long story and one I am writing now. My point is, both Alsatians and Lorrainians were more than likely trilingual or more depending on their education, and probably mixed up the languages. Question from your reference below. Did the Lorrainians coming to Canton speak "guttural Alsatian". Did it depend on close their original villages were close to Alsace? It seems that Father Carabin's English that he learned after coming to the US, was considered strange for awhile. His last parish was St. John's in Canton, where he served only 3 months (1853 ) as his precarious health finally forced him to retire from the ministry. How long were the Lehmann's there? I see some went to Seneca County, Ohio, also my area. I assume you have been to FamilySearch, Diocese of Toledo Ohio, Seneca County, St. Stephen's. Just glancing found the actual death record of Nicholas, whose will and death date you have, page 27 of Marriages and deaths. For any listers who have ancestors who settled in northern western Ohio, the aforementioned is an excellent resource. Audrey, write me at my address as above if you wish. Gloria Ishida On Mar 21, 2013, at 10:14 PM, Audrey Shields Hancock wrote: > Thank you, Brian and Etienne, > > I'm certainly getting a lesson in High German, Low German, French, and > gutteral Alsatian. I guess if someone knows words in the various languages > they might eventually blend them into their daily language. I can remember > reading a booklet entitled "Landmark of Catholism" as it had to do with the > history of St. John the Baptist Catholic Church in Canton, Stark Co., OH. > This involved Catholic families arriving from "Lorraine, France." It spoke > of "Most of those 'Frenchmen' spoke German or the guttural Alsatian > dialect." p. 17 > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2641/5695 - Release Date: 03/21/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2641/5695 - Release Date: 03/21/13

Would someone kindly define "gutteral" Alsatian? It doesn't sound very...um...kind. On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Audrey Shields Hancock < AudreyHancock1939@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > Hi, Gloria and Interested Others, > > To answer this question of yours: > > Question from your reference below. Did the Lorrainians coming to Canton > speak "guttural Alsatian". Did it depend on close their original villages > were close to Alsace? > > I don't know the answer. Here is what the booklet says: > > p. 5 > On February 10, 1828, U. S. Catholic Miscellany stated that 'thirty > Catholic > families arrived from Lorraine, France at Canton, their chief motive in > selecting this spot being the convenience of a Catholic church." > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > p. 17 > > "Though St. John's began as a congregation in 1823 with only fifteen > families, in 1828 alone thirty Catholic families arrived from Lorraine, > France. Most of those "Frenchmen" spoke German or the gutteral Alsatian > dialect." >

Hi Stephan, Do you know there are DITTMANs in Deutsch Zerne, Hungary? Notice they come from Mehadia. If these are your relatives, you may want to join the DVHH email list. 1954 DITTMANN Anton * Mehadia + vor 1872 vh DIMI Anna * Mehadia + vor 1872 1. Karl * e 1847 Mehadia <1955> 1955 DITTMANN Karl <1954.1>, Werschetz, S.v. D. Anton und DIMI Anna * e 1847 Mehadia vh K 09.05.1872 DZ (ledig, ledig, TZ Johann Schulz, Andreas Janz) SCHULZ Carolina <9917.4>, T.v. S. Nikolaus und BERNARD Magdalena * e 1848 Lazarfeld Fran Matkovich -----Original Message----- From: alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Stephan Wall Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 11:00 PM To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [A-L] Another German ? Record--Lost in Translation--Johannes Leman (sic) This is all very interesting. I had a great grandmother that named Margertha Dittmann. I have never been able to locate where she was from. (most likely somewhere in Pfalz Germany)Etienne's comments have given me a new lead to pursue. Maybe the answer lies in her name?   Thanks Stephan ________________________________ From: Etienne Herrbach <etienne.herrbach@wanadoo.fr> To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:46 AM Subject: Re: [A-L] Another German ? Record--Lost in Translation--Johannes Leman (sic) Le 21 mars 13 à 00:38, Brian J Densmore a écrit : >> Audrey, >> >> the child was born "heutte ... um Elff uhren" = today at 11 (likely >> AM, though not mentionned).  There is clearly a "l" after the E, then >> the double F (compare wonhafft = residing) > > Well, I don't know where you "clearly" get an "l" out of that chicken > scratch, but the "double f" is definitely the best explanation here, > or a "double s", which makes no sense and can thus be rejected. There > really were only two choices here, Elff of Erst. I just couldn't see > an "l". And yet, there is an L.  The curve is obvious. 100 % sure. >> In German "Uhr" = hour (but also "watch", which doesnt make any sense >> here) >> >> OK, "Uhren" instead of "uhr", but this record is really full of >> mistakes, e.g. "heutte" for "heute", "nitterkomen" for >> "niedergekommen", "Dagner" for "Tagner".... in this awkward German >> mixed up with Alsatian expressions. > > I disagree strongly here. This looks very clearly to be the writing of > a Low German speaker. There are German dialects that use these forms. > I wouldn't call them mistakes or awkward. It's clearly wrong for High > German. What is Low/High German?  This record is from Alsace not fro northern Germany, and as a native Alsatian speaker (Alemanic linguistic group) and having read thousands of Alsatian records, I maintain that this record is written in a bad German with a strong Alsatian (Alemanic) accent. > Notice the consistent use of the initial "d" for "t". Which might also > account for grammatical differences. But I'm not an expert on Low > German or High German grammar, but to me this is clearly written in a > Low German or possibly Middle German form. As I wrote several times here, the confusions D/T, B/P, G/K, V/F (= lenition) are typical of Alsatian accent.  See e.g. "Debartement". Here, your name would be pronounced something between Brian and Prian.  ;^) Edienne Nadife Alsatian sbeager -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I too was very impressed with your website Audrey - you told the story in an interesting way while smoothly (meaning no loss in the flow) including those oh-so-important source citations. I forwarded the link to another genealogist who has been struggling with that very issue. This list is helpful in SO many ways. :o) In addition, like Gloria, I am very interested in the language issue. My Lorraine-born 2nd great grandmother married a Swiss gentleman and I have always been curious about their prospective language barrier. This woman had been married previously to another Ohio immigrant, a man who was born in Hanover Germany. Her father's obituary appeared in a German newspaper in Cincinnati. Language, like other sideline topics periodically addressed on this list, add depth and dimension to our family trees. This in turn opens the door to additional sources of information. I look forward to more of this discussion! Laura On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 10:15 PM, gloria ishida <gfb-ishida@gol.com> wrote: > Audrey and all, > > Audrey, I have just visited your website and congratulate you on your > extensive work. > > The rest of you listers forgive me for writing personal background but the > language aspect is relevant and also I am amazed how personal connections > come from this list. > > I have done much research about the Cincinnati Diocese and before as two > of my ancestral German speaking families came from Lorraine to Ohio in the > fall of 1828. They were on their way to Cincinnati but because of a wagon > breakdown in Huron County, northern Ohio, they settled there. Peter > Carabin, who had already been in seminary, subsequently followed Father > Fenwick to Cincinnati. Upon ordination he was assigned to a parish in rural > Monroe, Michigan. With him was a native English speaking priest and he was > having trouble with the French speakers of the parish, more than just > language. The english speaking priest eft for other reasons. Father > Carabin went on to serve in primarily French parishes as well as a German > one. It's a long story and one I am writing now. > > My point is, both Alsatians and Lorrainians were more than likely > trilingual or more depending on their education, and probably mixed up the > languages. > > Question from your reference below. Did the Lorrainians coming to Canton > speak "guttural Alsatian". Did it depend on close their original villages > were close to Alsace?

These people took their Oath of Allegiance at the same time in Canton, Stark Co., OH. Notice that my Michel Lehmann is recorded as Michael Layman. At the present I have not found any relationship to the other men, although there may have been. Michel Lehmann and family left Schirrhein in 1828 from Le Harve, France. They were in Plain Twp., Stark Co., OH for the 1830 Census residing near Michael Amann and Anthony Hahn and perhaps others (probably relatives or friends from Schirrhein); took Oath in 1837 and evidently left by 1838 for what was then Berlin (aka Loramie's and finally Ft. Loramie), Shelby Co., OH. He purchased land there in 1838. Michel Lehmann's biographical sketch is at http://tinyurl.com/ylrlvr8 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ OATH OF ALLEGIANCE (Naturalization Record), Canton, Stark Co., OH Friday, 5th May 1837 "Now comes Christian Witt, John Creps, Michael Layman [sic], and Michael Miller natives of France within the dominions of the King of France and proves by the records of this Court that more than 2 years ago to wit the said Michael Miller, Michael Layman, and Christian Witt at the August term of this Court AD 1834 and the said John Creps at the April term of this Court AD 1833 they filed the requisite declaration of their intention to become citizens of the U. States and further prove to the satisfaction of this Court that they have resided within the United States for the term of 5 years last past and within the state of Ohio during the last year and that during the time aforesaid they have behaved as men of good moral character attached to the principles of the Constitution of the United States and well disposed to the good order and happiness of the same and the said Christian Witt, John Creps, Michael Layman, and Michael Miller now here in open Court declare on oath that they will support the Constitution of the United States and that they do absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to every foreign prince potentate state or sovereignty whatever and particularly to the King of France to whom they were heretofore subjects. Therefore it is ordered that a certificate of naturalization issue to them----- on payment of the costs of this proceeding." Transcribed 1 August 1986 by Audrey (LEHMANN-SHIELDS) HANCOCK, (Descendant of son, Martin Michael LEHMANN of Ft. Loramie, Shelby Co., OH) at Canton, Ohio Public Library: microfilm: Court House Records of Stark County, Ohio Common Pleas Office, Record Journal 1837-1838, Volume H, "Aliens/Aliens Application"

Spellings vary.  I am searching for anything related to Odile (Ottilia) LHEMEN. She was married to Jean BOSCH..  Both born about 1650. Jean BOSCH died between 1711 and 1717. Odile LHEMEN probably died after 1717.  They lived in Steinbourg, Bas Rhin. Their second child was born 1687. Thanks, Robert Bosch

Audrey, two things: - In German, "Mann" = man (male!), as compared to "Mensch" = human. The ending Mann is common is two kinds of surnames: some derived from an occupation or function (Kauf(f)mann = merchant, Zimmermann = carpenter, Amtmann/Amman = various kinds of officers, ......), some others in (old) first names (Christmann, Hartmann, ...). Often written with one N. - what about LEHMANN: derived from "Lehnsmann" = vassal, owner of a "Lehen" = fee (feudal tenure). A very common surmane throughout Germanic areas. Various spellings: Leman, Lehemann, Löhmann...) Etienne Le 21 mars 13 à 14:45, Audrey Shields Hancock a écrit : > The original spelling of the surname was LEHMANN. My grandfather > always > insisted that his children spell the surname as such, but when my > grandfather's siblings left the small community Ft. Loramie (also > known as > Loramie's and Berlin), Shelby Co., OH for Dayton, Montgomery Co., OH > the > spelling of the surname became LEHMAN. My grandfather always told his > children that the ancestors worked hard to earn the double "nn" on > the end > of the surname, and that they weren't to dishonor it. Or, was this > his way > of getting his way in maintaining the correct spelling. > > Is there anything significant in having the double "nn" on the > surname? I > have even noticed this with the spelling of Amann / Aman and others. > > My first cousin pronounces the name as Leeman and I pronounce it as > Layman, > but both of us spell it as Lehmann. I know that another branch of > the two > brothers...gg-gf, Michel, who came in 1828 and the other brother, > Nicolas, > who came about 1840 have descendants spelling the surname these two > ways: > Lehman & Layman. The brothers apparently separated after meeting in > Stark > Co., OH. Nicolas' family went to Wyandot Co., OH & Seneca Co., OH. > And, > what is interesting is that all the relatives, friends and neighbors > who > were with them in Stark Co., OH from Schirrhein eventually went to > various > cities and states....perhaps to buy their own land and to establish or > enlarge the Catholic Churches in those areas. > > Audrey

This is all very interesting. I had a great grandmother that named Margertha Dittmann. I have never been able to locate where she was from. (most likely somewhere in Pfalz Germany)Etienne's comments have given me a new lead to pursue. Maybe the answer lies in her name?   Thanks Stephan ________________________________ From: Etienne Herrbach <etienne.herrbach@wanadoo.fr> To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:46 AM Subject: Re: [A-L] Another German ? Record--Lost in Translation--Johannes Leman (sic) Le 21 mars 13 à 00:38, Brian J Densmore a écrit : >> Audrey, >> >> the child was born "heutte ... um Elff uhren" = today at 11 (likely >> AM, though not mentionned).  There is clearly a "l" after the E, then >> the double F (compare wonhafft = residing) > > Well, I don't know where you "clearly" get an "l" out of that chicken > scratch, but the "double f" is definitely the best explanation here,  > or a > "double s", which makes no sense and can thus be rejected. There  > really > were only two choices here, Elff of Erst. I just couldn't see an "l". And yet, there is an L.  The curve is obvious. 100 % sure. >> In German "Uhr" = hour (but also "watch", which doesnt make any sense >> here) >> >> OK, "Uhren" instead of "uhr", but this record is really full of >> mistakes, e.g. "heutte" for "heute", "nitterkomen" for >> "niedergekommen", "Dagner" for "Tagner".... in this awkward German >> mixed up with Alsatian expressions. > > I disagree strongly here. This looks very clearly to be the writing  > of a > Low German speaker. There are German dialects that use these forms. I > wouldn't call them mistakes or awkward. It's clearly wrong for High > German. What is Low/High German?  This record is from Alsace not fro northern  Germany, and as a native Alsatian speaker (Alemanic linguistic group)  and having read thousands of Alsatian records, I maintain that this  record is written in a bad German with a strong Alsatian (Alemanic)  accent. > Notice the consistent use of the initial "d" for "t". Which might also > account for grammatical differences. But I'm not an expert on Low  > German > or High German grammar, but to me this is clearly written in a Low  > German > or possibly Middle German form. As I wrote several times here, the confusions D/T, B/P, G/K, V/F (=  lenition) are typical of Alsatian accent.  See e.g. "Debartement".  Here, your name would be pronounced something between Brian and  Prian.  ;^) Edienne Nadife Alsatian sbeager

My family name is Luhmann. We came from the village of Luhdorf named after the river Luh. On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Etienne Herrbach < etienne.herrbach@wanadoo.fr> wrote: > Audrey, > > two things: > > - In German, "Mann" = man (male!), as compared to "Mensch" = human. > The ending Mann is common is two kinds of surnames: some derived from > an occupation or function (Kauf(f)mann = merchant, Zimmermann = > carpenter, Amtmann/Amman = various kinds of officers, ......), some > others in (old) first names (Christmann, Hartmann, ...). Often > written with one N. > > - what about LEHMANN: derived from "Lehnsmann" = vassal, owner of a > "Lehen" = fee (feudal tenure). A very common surmane throughout > Germanic areas. Various spellings: Leman, Lehemann, Löhmann...) > > > Etienne > > > > Le 21 mars 13 à 14:45, Audrey Shields Hancock a écrit : > > > The original spelling of the surname was LEHMANN. My grandfather > > always > > insisted that his children spell the surname as such, but when my > > grandfather's siblings left the small community Ft. Loramie (also > > known as > > Loramie's and Berlin), Shelby Co., OH for Dayton, Montgomery Co., OH > > the > > spelling of the surname became LEHMAN. My grandfather always told his > > children that the ancestors worked hard to earn the double "nn" on > > the end > > of the surname, and that they weren't to dishonor it. Or, was this > > his way > > of getting his way in maintaining the correct spelling. > > > > Is there anything significant in having the double "nn" on the > > surname? I > > have even noticed this with the spelling of Amann / Aman and others. > > > > My first cousin pronounces the name as Leeman and I pronounce it as > > Layman, > > but both of us spell it as Lehmann. I know that another branch of > > the two > > brothers...gg-gf, Michel, who came in 1828 and the other brother, > > Nicolas, > > who came about 1840 have descendants spelling the surname these two > > ways: > > Lehman & Layman. The brothers apparently separated after meeting in > > Stark > > Co., OH. Nicolas' family went to Wyandot Co., OH & Seneca Co., OH. > > And, > > what is interesting is that all the relatives, friends and neighbors > > who > > were with them in Stark Co., OH from Schirrhein eventually went to > > various > > cities and states....perhaps to buy their own land and to establish or > > enlarge the Catholic Churches in those areas. > > > > Audrey > > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- * * * Conrad Luhmann mangia bene, vivi felice cucina *

> Le 21 mars 13 à 00:38, Brian J Densmore a écrit : > >>> Audrey, >>> >>> the child was born "heutte ... um Elff uhren" = today at 11 (likely >>> AM, though not mentionned). There is clearly a "l" after the E, then >>> the double F (compare wonhafft = residing) >> >> Well, I don't know where you "clearly" get an "l" out of that chicken >> scratch, but the "double f" is definitely the best explanation here, >> or a >> "double s", which makes no sense and can thus be rejected. There >> really >> were only two choices here, Elff of Erst. I just couldn't see an "l". > > And yet, there is an L. The curve is obvious. 100 % sure. I wasn't disputing it, but it wasn't obvious or clear to me, or I'd have said so. I couldn't see loop you speak of, until I enlarged it really big. Maybe my eyes aren't what they used to be. > > >>> In German "Uhr" = hour (but also "watch", which doesnt make any sense >>> here) >>> >>> OK, "Uhren" instead of "uhr", but this record is really full of >>> mistakes, e.g. "heutte" for "heute", "nitterkomen" for >>> "niedergekommen", "Dagner" for "Tagner".... in this awkward German >>> mixed up with Alsatian expressions. >> >> I disagree strongly here. This looks very clearly to be the writing >> of a >> Low German speaker. There are German dialects that use these forms. I >> wouldn't call them mistakes or awkward. It's clearly wrong for High >> German. > > What is Low/High German? This record is from Alsace not fro northern > Germany, and as a native Alsatian speaker (Alemanic linguistic group) > and having read thousands of Alsatian records, I maintain that this > record is written in a bad German with a strong Alsatian (Alemanic) > accent. Low German encompasses those dialect spoken and written in the North of Germany. North of Berlin, sweeping in an arc across Germany to the Netherlands, where Dutch is spoken and a derivative itself of Low German. Granted the record is from Alsace. I'm not disputing that, but who is to say where the writer came from. People have been known to migrate from one place to another. I have ancestors from Alsace that originated in Switzerland, and Baden and even Austria. Alsace has been invaded by peoples from Baden, Italy, Hesse, Austria, Sweden. Now of course, you are far more experienced in Alsatian than I am, but I can remember you, or Ewald, telling me before that Alsatian didn't have a written form, or I'd have suggested it was written in an Alsatian accent. Which, in my book is the most likely. But, I wouldn't call it "Bad" German, if indeed it is written in an Alsatian dialect, then it would be correct for Alsatian. It would only be bad from a perspective of not being High German which has become the "standard" German. But "standard German" didn't exist in 1808. Yes, there was some attempts as early as the mid 1600s to standardize German, by book publishers, but there was no standard really before the 1870s. But then, I'm probably just being pedantic. I'm not trying to start an argument, although I love to debate. I'm just seeking to develop a much clearer view of the texts and the people and the nuances of the history and writings. It's fine to collect names and dates and occupations, but to me, we miss out if we don't delve into the richness of what is written. The way people write leaves clues, and I always want to put the clues together to get the story. So, don't get upset if I challenge statements. Also, I will sometimes misinterpret what you say. When you said "Alsatian expressions" I took it to mean "speech phrases typical of Alsatian speech", rather than the "typical Alsatian transliteration of letters". Both of which "could" be correct interpretation of what you wrote. The beauty of language is the "opportunity" of misunderstanding the speaker. ;^) >> Notice the consistent use of the initial "d" for "t". Which might also >> account for grammatical differences. But I'm not an expert on Low >> German >> or High German grammar, but to me this is clearly written in a Low >> German >> or possibly Middle German form. > > As I wrote several times here, the confusions D/T, B/P, G/K, V/F (= > lenition) are typical of Alsatian accent. See e.g. "Debartement". > Here, your name would be pronounced something between Brian and > Prian. ;^) Well what about vowel shifts? Don't they vary as well? > > Edienne > Nadife Alsatian sbeager lol Brian Native New Yawkah

On Mar 21, 2013, at 8:38 AM, Brian J Densmore wrote: > Notice the consistent use of the initial "d" for "t". Which might also > account for grammatical differences. But I'm not an expert on Low German > or High German grammar, but to me this is clearly written in a Low German > or possibly Middle German form. Brian, why do you say you are not an expert, but then say "clearly". And i don't see much point in arguing about the language origin; from what I see on a map of German dialects Low German areas are nowhere near Alsace. I would go with Etienne in this case as he is an Alsatian who can speak Alsatian. I even suggest that there may have been slight variations in speech transcribed into the written from village to village. I would suggest further to go to the page of this particular record and compare the information and the writing. There are four records including the Leman one. I agree with Etienne in the following, using common sense, that the child was likely born in the morning if the birth was reported the same day. Evening? Figure that as unlikely. And I think I see a "Nachmittag" - afternoon further on in the text with the report. Again this is good practice for all of us. Gloria Ishida >> >> >> Audrey, >> >> the child was born "heutte ... um Elff uhren" = today at 11 (likely >> AM, though not mentionned). There is clearly a "l" after the E, then >> the double F (compare wonhafft = residing) > > > Etienne >> In German "Uhr" = hour (but also "watch", which doesnt make any sense >> here) >> >> .. in this awkward German >> mixed up with Alsatian expressions. > > > -- "Genealogy. An account of one's descent from an ancestor who did not particularly care to trace his own." Ambrose Bierce

Isn't this the truth! Because of these letters as Etienne indicated, the interpretations by clerks/recorders has resulted in many variant spellings of an original surname, even with my own ancestors. Biam = Piam Vetter = Feather Giesseman = Keeseman = Geesaman ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >As I wrote several times here, the confusions D/T, B/P, G/K, V/F (=lenition) are typical of Alsatian accent. See e.g. "Debartement". Here, your name would be pronounced something between Brian and Prian. ;^) Edienne Nadife Alsatian sbeager

The original spelling of the surname was LEHMANN. My grandfather always insisted that his children spell the surname as such, but when my grandfather's siblings left the small community Ft. Loramie (also known as Loramie's and Berlin), Shelby Co., OH for Dayton, Montgomery Co., OH the spelling of the surname became LEHMAN. My grandfather always told his children that the ancestors worked hard to earn the double "nn" on the end of the surname, and that they weren't to dishonor it. Or, was this his way of getting his way in maintaining the correct spelling. Is there anything significant in having the double "nn" on the surname? I have even noticed this with the spelling of Amann / Aman and others. My first cousin pronounces the name as Leeman and I pronounce it as Layman, but both of us spell it as Lehmann. I know that another branch of the two brothers...gg-gf, Michel, who came in 1828 and the other brother, Nicolas, who came about 1840 have descendants spelling the surname these two ways: Lehman & Layman. The brothers apparently separated after meeting in Stark Co., OH. Nicolas' family went to Wyandot Co., OH & Seneca Co., OH. And, what is interesting is that all the relatives, friends and neighbors who were with them in Stark Co., OH from Schirrhein eventually went to various cities and states....perhaps to buy their own land and to establish or enlarge the Catholic Churches in those areas. Audrey -----Original Message----- From: alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Etienne Herrbach Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:47 AM To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [A-L] Another German ? Record--Lost in Translation--JohannesLeman (sic) Le 21 mars 13 à 00:38, Brian J Densmore a écrit : >> Audrey, >> >> the child was born "heutte ... um Elff uhren" = today at 11 (likely >> AM, though not mentionned). There is clearly a "l" after the E, then >> the double F (compare wonhafft = residing) > > Well, I don't know where you "clearly" get an "l" out of that chicken > scratch, but the "double f" is definitely the best explanation here, > or a > "double s", which makes no sense and can thus be rejected. There > really > were only two choices here, Elff of Erst. I just couldn't see an "l". And yet, there is an L. The curve is obvious. 100 % sure. >> In German "Uhr" = hour (but also "watch", which doesnt make any sense >> here) >> >> OK, "Uhren" instead of "uhr", but this record is really full of >> mistakes, e.g. "heutte" for "heute", "nitterkomen" for >> "niedergekommen", "Dagner" for "Tagner".... in this awkward German >> mixed up with Alsatian expressions. > > I disagree strongly here. This looks very clearly to be the writing > of a > Low German speaker. There are German dialects that use these forms. I > wouldn't call them mistakes or awkward. It's clearly wrong for High > German. What is Low/High German? This record is from Alsace not fro northern Germany, and as a native Alsatian speaker (Alemanic linguistic group) and having read thousands of Alsatian records, I maintain that this record is written in a bad German with a strong Alsatian (Alemanic) accent. > Notice the consistent use of the initial "d" for "t". Which might also > account for grammatical differences. But I'm not an expert on Low > German > or High German grammar, but to me this is clearly written in a Low > German > or possibly Middle German form. As I wrote several times here, the confusions D/T, B/P, G/K, V/F (= lenition) are typical of Alsatian accent. See e.g. "Debartement". Here, your name would be pronounced something between Brian and Prian. ;^) Edienne Nadife Alsatian sbeager -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2641/5692 - Release Date: 03/20/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2641/5692 - Release Date: 03/20/13

Thank you, Brian and Etienne, I'm certainly getting a lesson in High German, Low German, French, and gutteral Alsatian. I guess if someone knows words in the various languages they might eventually blend them into their daily language. I can remember reading a booklet entitled "Landmark of Catholism" as it had to do with the history of St. John the Baptist Catholic Church in Canton, Stark Co., OH. This involved Catholic families arriving from "Lorraine, France." It spoke of "Most of those 'Frenchmen' spoke German or the guttural Alsatian dialect." p. 17 I can remember my mother using a few German words when she spoke to us, especially when she wanted to say "Do you understand, me?" I think it began with ver... something. Her father (John Lehmann) spoke in both German & English. I believe his father spoke both German and French (perhaps Alsatian) and some English, but is said to have worshipped from a French prayer. He married a German lady from Baden, so the family basically spoke German. By the time my mother (youngest of 11) went to a German Catholic School, they had changed from teaching in German to English. However, her older siblings spoke both German and English. Thank you, gentlemen, for your thoughts and discussion. I am grateful for your input and it is wonderful that you are willing to help me with these translations, which evidently can be a bit challenging at times. THANK YOU. Audrey -----Original Message----- From: alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Brian J Densmore Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 7:38 PM To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [A-L] Another German ? Record--Lost in Translation--Johannes Leman (sic) > > > Audrey, > > the child was born "heutte ... um Elff uhren" = today at 11 (likely > AM, though not mentionned). There is clearly a "l" after the E, then > the double F (compare wonhafft = residing) Well, I don't know where you "clearly" get an "l" out of that chicken scratch, but the "double f" is definitely the best explanation here, or a "double s", which makes no sense and can thus be rejected. There really were only two choices here, Elff of Erst. I just couldn't see an "l". > In German "Uhr" = hour (but also "watch", which doesnt make any sense > here) > > OK, "Uhren" instead of "uhr", but this record is really full of > mistakes, e.g. "heutte" for "heute", "nitterkomen" for > "niedergekommen", "Dagner" for "Tagner".... in this awkward German > mixed up with Alsatian expressions. I disagree strongly here. This looks very clearly to be the writing of a Low German speaker. There are German dialects that use these forms. I wouldn't call them mistakes or awkward. It's clearly wrong for High German. Notice the consistent use of the initial "d" for "t". Which might also account for grammatical differences. But I'm not an expert on Low German or High German grammar, but to me this is clearly written in a Low German or possibly Middle German form. Brian