Hi Mary Ann, and welcome to the wonderful world of A-L research. For all European research, you must have a village name, or at least a small region with a few villages, because that is where all the records are kept! There are few to no departement, county or region-wide censuses or other general surveys such as our US Census records. So, you must do your American or Canadian research, before trying to "jump the pond" back to Europe. Have you found the naturalization applications? Often the first and second application contain much more detail than the final certificate. How about obituaries, in particular those published in small local newspapers, church publications, or German or French newspapers? Many of the old newspapers are available on microfilm. For lots of ideas of how to go about this, see: http://genweblog.blogspot.com/2006/02/european-research.html I hope this is helpful. Valorie On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 8:01 AM, Mary Ann Webb <conansmom@att.net> wrote: > Hello! > > My great grandparents emigrated from Alsace-Lorraine to the USA in 1888. I know their birthdates and know they were married in 1886 however I do not know what city they were from or other family members names ie their parents, siblings, etc. Do you have any suggestions on how I can obtain this information? > > Thank you! -- Facebook: http://www.new.facebook.com/profile.php?id=507013560 LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/valoriez MySpace: http://www.myspace.com/valoriez Genealogy Blog: http://genweblog.blogspot.com/ All my pages: http://valorie.zimmerman.googlepages.com

I'm not sure how to offer help here. You simply don't provide enough information on what you know. But here goes. You know when they were married. If you know where (which is unlikely based on your information) they were married try to find the church they were married in. Church marriage records can sometimes provide vital clues. Look for the baptism records on the children born in this country. Sometimes they will state the town from where the parents came from. Online researching can be convenient, but there is no substitute for old-fashioned off-line research. In addition to trying to find their US church membership, look for the immigration papers, for ships registers. Death certificates may list their parents. Port of entry records may indicate relatives. Old letters from home, old photographs, local newspaper articles, family lore, elder family members. These are all sources to explore. The scant information you give leads me to believe you haven't gone much farther than US Census records. Good luck, Brian On Sat, September 13, 2008 10:01 am, Mary Ann Webb wrote: > Hello! > > My great grandparents emigrated from Alsace-Lorraine to the USA in 1888. I > know their birthdates and know they were married in 1886 however I do not > know what city they were from or other family members names ie their > parents, siblings, etc. Do you have any suggestions on how I can obtain > this information? > > Thank you! > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Mary Ann For Your search Check out http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp or http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/ or http://www.surnamenavigator.org/ Just fill out the blanks , and click " search " , or " go " If the records are not entered , then You may have to order some films , of that town, of that time , from the FHC library Karl Roussin ========================================= ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Ann Webb" <conansmom@att.net> To: <ALSACE-LORRAINE@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 10:01 AM Subject: [A-L] Holle Hello! My great grandparents emigrated from Alsace-Lorraine to the USA in 1888. I know their birthdates and know they were married in 1886 however I do not know what city they were from or other family members names ie their parents, siblings, etc. Do you have any suggestions on how I can obtain this information? Thank you! -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello!   My great grandparents emigrated from Alsace-Lorraine to the USA in 1888. I know their birthdates and know they were married in 1886 however I do not know what city they were from or other family members names ie their parents, siblings, etc. Do you have any suggestions on how I can obtain this information?   Thank you!

Carole, Since Eliza said she was from Lüneburg, Hannover that is where you should look first. I didn't see any church records in FHL that would help with that date, except the military church records. Eliza's statement on her marriage records should be given considerably more weight than that of her daughter or of census takers, especially considering it is trhe only source you have stated so far that lists a city. There are other source at the FHL that might be of help. Based on this one record alone, I find it rather unlikely she came from Alsace. While my great grandmother said she was from Germany, she also listed her town, which was clearly in Alsace. Of course it might not have been my grandmother saying this, but by the person who made the entry. Since her birth certificate was in German and, at the time of her birth, Alsace was under German possession. HTH, Brian On Wed, September 10, 2008 2:01 pm, Carole Smythe wrote: > Ralph, > > Thank you for replying. My great-grandmother Eliza (Bartja) Venn died Nov. > 25, 1908 in Vancouver, Washington. The reason I thought her daughter's > informaton may have some merit was that they lived together and perhaps > exchanged that information. The only record I have of their immigration is > from the Passenger and Immigration Lists Index 1500's - 1900's saying the > family (parents Heinrich William and Christiana Wilhelmine Bartje) came in > 1852 with annotation extracted from the state archive Hannover and port > uncertain. Her marriage registration said she was from Lunenburg, > Hannover. > Any other documents I have just say Germany. I don't know where to get her > birth registration. There is such a discrepancy on each document I have > regarding her age, anywhere from August 10, 1836 - 1845. The spelling of > her > last name has variants: > Bartja, Bartja, Barja, Bartje, Borga, Bartge, Barga, Bartye, Bartza, > Barge, > Bargie, Burgey. > > Any help is greatly appreciated. > > Carole > > -----Original Message----- > From: alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Ralph Taylor > Sent: September 9, 2008 12:16 PM > To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [A-L] ALSACE-LORRAINE -- Bartja/Barje > > > > Re: "Some documents state she was born in Lunenburg, Hanover, Germany. On > her daughter's death certificate, it says her mother was born in Alsace > Lorraine (spelt Barje) and on one of her daughter's census, it said her > mother was born in France." > > What you have here is a classic case of conflicting evidence, subject to > the > rules of evaluation explained so eloquently by Elizabeth Shawn Mills. > > "Some documents" do not help assess whether they are primary or secondary > sources or whether they provide more direct evidence of the place of birth > than the daughter's death certificate & census enumerations. > > A daughter can not be present at her mother's birth, so can not be a > primary > source as to the facts of that birth. Further, the statement on the > daughter's death certificate should be taken as "third-hand" information; > it > can be no better than the daughter's belief and is perhaps less accurate. > Records containing the mother's declarations should take precedence over > those of the daughter or third parties. > > During the 1916-1919 and 1936-1945 periods, there were social & economic > reasons for persons born in Germany to obfuscate their origins. It may > have > happened here. > > You may want to find the record of the mother's entry into Canada (or the > United States). It may contain her own statement of her birthplace and be > closer in time to the event. > > -rt_/) > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

In a message dated June 17, 2008 2:06 PM kenlampel@yahoo.com wrote: << I just joined this group, after hearing from my Great Aunt this weekend, that the Lampel line of my ancestors came over from Alsace-Lorraine area. I found a Leonhard Lampel that would match my Great-Great Grandfather if I could find out where he came from. I searched and searched and found he was on the ship SS Herder, came into CastleGarden, and left form ports Hamburg or Havre.......>> Hi Listmember, The ship HERDER left Hamburg 15 Oct 1879 (www.castlegarden.org says that the ship arrived at New York 29 Oct 1879).. According to the original passengerlist (with printed text in German language) taken in Hamburg, Leonhard LAMPEL 26 years old was from Nürnberg (Germany). Profession unreadable. If you agree, I can send you a copy of the page. Let me know. All the best from Alsace Ewald

Ralph, Thank you for replying. My great-grandmother Eliza (Bartja) Venn died Nov. 25, 1908 in Vancouver, Washington. The reason I thought her daughter's informaton may have some merit was that they lived together and perhaps exchanged that information. The only record I have of their immigration is from the Passenger and Immigration Lists Index 1500's - 1900's saying the family (parents Heinrich William and Christiana Wilhelmine Bartje) came in 1852 with annotation extracted from the state archive Hannover and port uncertain. Her marriage registration said she was from Lunenburg, Hannover. Any other documents I have just say Germany. I don't know where to get her birth registration. There is such a discrepancy on each document I have regarding her age, anywhere from August 10, 1836 - 1845. The spelling of her last name has variants: Bartja, Bartja, Barja, Bartje, Borga, Bartge, Barga, Bartye, Bartza, Barge, Bargie, Burgey. Any help is greatly appreciated. Carole -----Original Message----- From: alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Ralph Taylor Sent: September 9, 2008 12:16 PM To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [A-L] ALSACE-LORRAINE -- Bartja/Barje Re: "Some documents state she was born in Lunenburg, Hanover, Germany. On her daughter's death certificate, it says her mother was born in Alsace Lorraine (spelt Barje) and on one of her daughter's census, it said her mother was born in France." What you have here is a classic case of conflicting evidence, subject to the rules of evaluation explained so eloquently by Elizabeth Shawn Mills. "Some documents" do not help assess whether they are primary or secondary sources or whether they provide more direct evidence of the place of birth than the daughter's death certificate & census enumerations. A daughter can not be present at her mother's birth, so can not be a primary source as to the facts of that birth. Further, the statement on the daughter's death certificate should be taken as "third-hand" information; it can be no better than the daughter's belief and is perhaps less accurate. Records containing the mother's declarations should take precedence over those of the daughter or third parties. During the 1916-1919 and 1936-1945 periods, there were social & economic reasons for persons born in Germany to obfuscate their origins. It may have happened here. You may want to find the record of the mother's entry into Canada (or the United States). It may contain her own statement of her birthplace and be closer in time to the event. -rt_/) -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

interested in the surames RICHERDT, RICHERT, RICHART, RUETSCH, KOCH or DIRRIG, all from BOUXWILLER, HAUT RHIN, ALSASE. I would love to exchange info with such a person. Rollie R. >lonnyrol@earthlink.net<

Carole I hope this person belongs to you..... S. Bartja Ontario, Canada (1858-1869) Age: 20 Birth Place" Hanover Residence: Elam Township Father: William Mother: Nora Souse: Bristow, Wm. A. Age: 29 Birth Place: Dumfries Township Residence: Blenheim Township Father: John Mother: Hannah Marriage Date: 11/18/1864 County: Perth Microfilm Roll: 1030063 Hope this helps somewhat.. Good luck Best Regards, Patricia

Thank you Patricia. Yes, she is my great-grandmother's sister. I did have that information but thank you for looking this up. Carole -----Original Message----- From: alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of patriciahans Sent: September 9, 2008 4:10 PM To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [A-L] BARTJA Family Carole I hope this person belongs to you..... S. Bartja Ontario, Canada (1858-1869) Age: 20 Birth Place" Hanover Residence: Elam Township Father: William Mother: Nora Souse: Bristow, Wm. A. Age: 29 Birth Place: Dumfries Township Residence: Blenheim Township Father: John Mother: Hannah Marriage Date: 11/18/1864 County: Perth Microfilm Roll: 1030063 Hope this helps somewhat.. Good luck Best Regards, Patricia -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Re: "Some documents state she was born in Lunenburg, Hanover, Germany. On her daughter's death certificate, it says her mother was born in Alsace Lorraine (spelt Barje) and on one of her daughter's census, it said her mother was born in France." What you have here is a classic case of conflicting evidence, subject to the rules of evaluation explained so eloquently by Elizabeth Shawn Mills. "Some documents" do not help assess whether they are primary or secondary sources or whether they provide more direct evidence of the place of birth than the daughter's death certificate & census enumerations. A daughter can not be present at her mother's birth, so can not be a primary source as to the facts of that birth. Further, the statement on the daughter's death certificate should be taken as "third-hand" information; it can be no better than the daughter's belief and is perhaps less accurate. Records containing the mother's declarations should take precedence over those of the daughter or third parties. During the 1916-1919 and 1936-1945 periods, there were social & economic reasons for persons born in Germany to obfuscate their origins. It may have happened here. You may want to find the record of the mother's entry into Canada (or the United States). It may contain her own statement of her birthplace and be closer in time to the event. -rt_/)

My great-grandmother Eliza BARTJA was born Aug. 10 about 1843 - 1845. Some documents state she was born in Lunenburg, Hannover, Germany. On her daughter's death certificate, it says her mother was born in Alsace Lorraine (spelt Barje) and on one of her daughter's census, it said her mother was born in France. How and where do I continue my search for her birth place and date? Carole Vancouver, B. C.

Hi Ewald, A great resource! Thank you for posting this link! Linda in Costa Rica Monroe County, NY Records and Family Genealogy http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monroenys/ Monroe County, NY History http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monroenys/ ----- Original Message ----- From: EWALD To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, 05 September, 2008 3:53 PM Subject: ***SPAM*** [A-L] Map - Immigration routes from Europe to the United States 1853 Hi Listmembers, While searching the web, I came accross the following site which shows an immigrant's map and guide to North Amerika dated 1853: http://collections.lib.uwm.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/agdm&CISOPTR=297&CISOBOX=1&REC=11 (Click on the map to enlarge it) The sea routes between Europe-US and the land routes in Europe and North Amerika are mentioned. The immigrant's roads between Alsace-Lorraine (Strasburg and Nancy) and the harbors are reported. Note that "Havre de Grace" is the old name of the harbor "Le Havre". The box at the bottom left gives the distances between a majority of cities, in hours (abbreviation of "Stunde" / hours in German language is "St.) and the price of each voyage (the money units are "Reinische Gulden and Kreuzer" or " Thaler and Silbergroschen'') For those interested, this map can be purchased at: http://www.worldmapsonline.com/historicalmaps/kr-1853-us.htm Have a nice weekend Ewald -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Listmembers, While searching the web, I came accross the following site which shows an immigrant's map and guide to North Amerika dated 1853: http://collections.lib.uwm.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/agdm&CISOPTR=297&CISOBOX=1&REC=11 (Click on the map to enlarge it) The sea routes between Europe-US and the land routes in Europe and North Amerika are mentioned. The immigrant's roads between Alsace-Lorraine (Strasburg and Nancy) and the harbors are reported. Note that "Havre de Grace" is the old name of the harbor "Le Havre". The box at the bottom left gives the distances between a majority of cities, in hours (abbreviation of "Stunde" / hours in German language is "St.) and the price of each voyage (the money units are "Reinische Gulden and Kreuzer" or " Thaler and Silbergroschen'') For those interested, this map can be purchased at: http://www.worldmapsonline.com/historicalmaps/kr-1853-us.htm Have a nice weekend Ewald

Re: "It's hard to understand why a site that uses a code with such an apparently specific meaning gives no reference for reading the code." Lest we forget, most such websites are developed and staffed by volunteers. They aren't perfect and have, like most of us, limited time and understanding. We should be thankful for the non-commercial genealogical resources we have. If they need improving, very little stops one from helping. -rt_/)

Ewald and Jim, Thanks for the lead. I will look for Sara Bloch in Connecticut.  I'll see how it goes. I had the code.  I wrote the Castle Garden site twice without reply.   It's hard to understand why a site that uses a code with such an apparently specific meaning gives no reference for reading the code. Bob Teitelbaum Message: 1 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 22:05:34 +0200 From: "EWALD" <ewald.klein@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [A-L] Ideas Please To: <alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <F356138EE8424C7C95D48187090E54E8@kleinb96a82872> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";     reply-type=original In a message dated 15th Aug 2008 bobtbaum@verizon.netasked the meaning of the destination code used by Castle Garden and concerning Leopold Bloch  and his sister, Sara. They both arrived in New York from Valff, Alsace, France via Hamburg or Le Havre on the ship Allemannia 11 January 1869. The castlegarden.orgwebsite does not list the final destination of passengers but instead gives a code corresponding to the destination. The following site shows a table giving the meaning of various code numbers, but this list is far from complete: http://stevemorse.org/ellis/destcodes.htm The destination code for Leopold and Sarah BLOCH given by Castle Garden is the number 7328, the code of the United States. All the best from Alsace Ewald (living near Valff) ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 13:36:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Andrews <jmjandrews@ameritech.net> Subject: Re: [A-L] Ideas Please To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <648413.89630.qm@web81105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Ewald, I find 7328 for the United States but also 7328 for Hartford, Connecticut, USA. ?? Might help. Regards, Jim

In a message dated 15th Aug 2008 bobtbaum@verizon.net asked the meaning of the destination code used by Castle Garden and concerning Leopold Bloch and his sister, Sara. They both arrived in New York from Valff, Alsace, France via Hamburg or Le Havre on the ship Allemannia 11 January 1869. The castlegarden.org website does not list the final destination of passengers but instead gives a code corresponding to the destination. The following site shows a table giving the meaning of various code numbers, but this list is far from complete: http://stevemorse.org/ellis/destcodes.htm The destination code for Leopold and Sarah BLOCH given by Castle Garden is the number 7328, the code of the United States. All the best from Alsace Ewald (living near Valff)

Ewald, I find 7328 for the United States but also 7328 for Hartford, Connecticut, USA. ?? Might help. Regards, Jim ----- Original Message ---- From: EWALD <ewald.klein@gmail.com> To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2008 3:05:34 PM Subject: Re: [A-L] Ideas Please In a message dated 15th Aug 2008 bobtbaum@verizon.net asked the meaning of the destination code used by Castle Garden and concerning Leopold Bloch  and his sister, Sara. They both arrived in New York from Valff, Alsace, France via Hamburg or Le Havre on the ship Allemannia 11 January 1869. The castlegarden.org website does not list the final destination of passengers but instead gives a code corresponding to the destination. The following site shows a table giving the meaning of various code numbers, but this list is far from complete: http://stevemorse.org/ellis/destcodes.htm The destination code for Leopold and Sarah BLOCH given by Castle Garden is the number 7328, the code of the United States. All the best from Alsace Ewald (living near Valff) -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm  ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Braun, Bruny and Brunning are all different surnames. While Bruny (Bruni/Brunei) and Braun almost certainly have the same word meaning. Bruni is probably of Italian origin, and Braun of course is Germanic. Brunning is equivalent to the English form Browning. While all three surnames have "brown" as the root of the word does not mean you should start dissecting and simplifying them. Barring a transcription error on the part of the person entering the names you shouldn't try to join family names. Even if coincidences and circumstances make it tempting. HTH, Brian On Mon, August 25, 2008 3:07 pm, kopfler wrote: > My greatgrandmother Catherine BRAUN lived with her uncle, John BRAUN and > his wife Jenette, in New Orleans. When John died he named Henry BRUNNING > as undertutor of his children. Other records indicate that Jenette's > maiden name was BRUNY. Are BRUNNING and BRUNY family names that occured > in the St. Avold area in the mid-1800s or is it more likely that these are > other spellings of BRAUN? > > Fred Kopfler, Louisiana > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

My greatgrandmother Catherine BRAUN lived with her uncle, John BRAUN and his wife Jenette, in New Orleans. When John died he named Henry BRUNNING as undertutor of his children. Other records indicate that Jenette's maiden name was BRUNY. Are BRUNNING and BRUNY family names that occured in the St. Avold area in the mid-1800s or is it more likely that these are other spellings of BRAUN? Fred Kopfler, Louisiana