Let me clarify. The microfilms I used were not online. The index to determine which microfilm I needed was online. From there, I requested them to be sent to my local FHC. The actual scanned copies of the documents I spoke of are most assuredly not available online. -----Original Message----- From: alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of harand8479@aol.com Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 8:42 AM To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [A-L] Bischwiller It was my understanding that not all of the information available at LDS is online yet.? Can you imagine how much data there is at Salt Lake in the vaults? -----Original Message----- From: Nutmeg421@aol.com To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 7:14 am Subject: Re: [A-L] Bischwiller In a message dated 11/10/08 4:00:13 AM, georgeandeve@embarqmail.com writes: > The key though is to > learn the town name. > I've tried this for thirty years or more. I've used the FHCs often. I hate microfilms, so I'm happy they are been put on line. In fact, I work on them all the time. ************** AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=htt p://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holid ays-from-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello, a few precisions on Brian's post : > Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:19:23 -0600 (CST) > From: brian@amason.net > >> said he was born in Alsace. He was French and his native tongue was >> French. > Many Alsatians native tongue up until post WWII was Alsatian. Which > is a > Germanic dialect. Alsatians certainly spoke French and German, but > Alsatian would have been the language of everyday use. Before WWI, very few Alsatians in the countryside understood French. They spoke dialect and understood German. Particularly the newspapers and the Catholic and Protestant worships were mainly in German (with some local exceptions). >> Loraine borders partly on Hesse-Darmstadt. No, Lorraine borders with Palatinate and Saarland. >> Alsace and Lorraine were a part of Prussia for a period of time. Alsace and Moselle were part of the German Empire ruled by the Prussians, between 1871 and 1918. > Your best bet is to take some time and learn something about > Alsace-Lorraine during the period of time your ancestors lived there Sure! Again some useful websites: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsace --- some inaccurracies http://mapage.noos.fr/ephil/uk_alsa1.htm http://www.alsace-lorraine.org/historiquea.htm --- in French and a few earlier posts: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/ALSACE-LORRAINE/2007-03/1174813398 http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/ALSACE-LORRAINE/2007-03/1174840343 http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/ALSACE-LORRAINE/2008-01/1199385822 Happy surfing! Etienne

In a message dated 11/10/08 10:18:04 AM, etienne.herrbach@wanadoo.fr writes: > Before WWI, very few Alsatians in the countryside understood French.   > They spoke dialect and understood German.  > My grandfather knew French, as did my father who helped me with my college French. Of course, my grandfather died in the 1860s before Germany was organized. He also spoke German and Italian, and learned English when he came to America. They left from LeHavre, not Hamburg, went to England and left there for America. My grandfather came to America very young, in about 1868. He said he arrived in NYC on Good Friday, 1867, but we found that to be untrue. It was probably 1868 or even earlier. If he was 18, it was 1866. They are not listed in the Germans to America books. Charles and Nicholas Becker. ************** AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from-aol-search/?ncid=emlcn tussear00000001)

Jean, Where did Charles (and Nicholas) settle in the United States? Do you know their professions? Gloria

Hi All, I'm looking for information about Margarite Gill(e) born in Oeting in the early 1700s (parents were Ludovic Gill and Justina Lang). She died in St. Nikolaus, Saar on 24 May 1759. The LDS only has records listed for after 1793 and I was wondering if the earlier records may have been combined with another village or town? Paul Wingert, Regina, SK

Etienne, merci beaucoup for your information on the ruler-ship changes for the Alsace (Elzass) and Lorraine (Lothringen) regions. This is a complicated subject and worthy of an organized approach, as it is the source of much confusion. Which leads to: ".. I'm more confused than ever. On census records he always said he was born in Alsace." If it is true that "Adam Becker and his wife Maria Brunon Becker were killed in the 1860s.", they could have appeared only in TWO (2) of the US decennial censuses which would list them specifically by name and give their birth places -- 1850 & 1860. Censuses before 1850 did not list individuals (only households, by name of the head of household) nor did they contain birthplace information. So, "always" is being used loosely, I think. Further, the "always" statement conflicts with "In later census records he said he was born in Bavaria or Prussia." Is it "always Alsace" or "later Bavaria or Prussia"? Adam, having died, is unlikely to have said anything in 1870 or later. I suspect the "later" statements to be from or about the Becker children's birthplaces of their parents -- not direct statements by Adam or Maria. Therefore, 1870 and after censuses are, at best, secondary sources. It is common for US census information about birthplaces -- especially foreign ones -- to be misleading. Sometimes, neighbors would give information in the absence of actual knowledge. Sometimes, the enumerated would interpret their birthplaces or their parents' birthplaces to the current political situation. Etienne has pointed out how Bavaria's rule of Alsace & Lorraine began in 1816 and Prussia's rule followed the Franco-Prussian War of 1871. -rt_/)

On Mon, November 10, 2008 1:30 am, Linda H. Gutierrez wrote: > Brian wrote: > >>Bavaria is just so far out there, it is highly improbable an Alsatian >> would claim to be Bavarian. > >>Alsace and Lorraine were a part of Prussia for a period of time. > > > > Brian, > > The Rheinland Pfalz, also known as the Palatinate, was for a long time > part of Bavaria, so there was in fact a part of Bavaria that was near to > Alsace. I disagree. Rhineland-Pfalz and the Palatinate are not interchangeable. You cannot rely on modern day designations, which were created by (predominately) the American forces post WWII (1946), and has no particular relationship to the real historical boundaries. Certainly, the Palatinate does touch the northern border of Alsace-Lorraine. However, Rheinland-Pfalz is a modern designation that includes the Palatinate, Parts of Hesse-Darmstadt, Hesse-Nassau and Oldenburg. Neither does the current day Rhein-Pfalz Kreis have any necessary relation to the Palatinate, although it is a part of the Palatinate. Modern day Germany was a hodge-podge of literally hundreds of little to big kingdoms, eventually all absorbed into Prussia. If you are going to correct my generalizations with specifics, please use the proper specifics. I was trying to make a point, although you do have a valid one also. If her ancestor had come from the Palinate, and not really Bas-Rhin, he might have considered himself Bavarian. The original poster has not told us which census records indicate he may have been from Bavaria or Prussia, but that the earlier ones listed France. I know we are talking about the mid to late 1800s. So I am confused as to how she can be certain that that her ancestor is the one always giving the answers. I know no way of verifying that any particular piece of data in a census was given by a particular person. Certainly if he came over before the 1860s, then Alsace would have been French, and later be part of Prussia. He could certainly have been confused as to whether it was part of Prussia or Bavaria. Or it could be as simple as he didn't answer where he was from and the census taker filled in the location based on others living in the area and/ or his accent. It may even be that the census taker filled in the information incorrectly or the transcriber who made the copy made a mistake, etc. My point was that one should NOT rely on the census data to reflect the actual information that may or may not have been provided by the original person. Censuses are NOT Primary sources of data and should not be given such status, as there are many mistakes in them and equally so the IGI data. If you have three censuses that say France, one that says Bavaria and two that say Prussia, and you suspect your ancestor came from Alsace, then in all probability your ancestor came from Alsace and looking in Bavaria is likely to prove fruitless. I was trying guide our researcher into making the most logical and profitable use of her time, rather than chasing shadows. If I over generalized in my attempt, forgive me. I am a careful researcher and am not simply trying to collect names and dates to fill up a family tree. Since our researcher has been searching for thirty years, I assume she is also. Still if after thirty years you have not found your relative in Bischwiller, Bas-Rhin, then there is a proportional likelihood that you should in fact look at the records of Bischwller-les-Thann, Haut-Rhin. Have you in fact looked at the records in Bischwiller? Have you contacted the clerk in Bischwiller? I received a response within weeks of contacting the clerk there. My result in Bischwiller was negative, but not in Bischwiller-les-Thann. However, if you have not exhausted your options in Bischwiller, then by all means do that first. Sorry for the length. Brian

Merci, Etienne. Jean ************** AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04 /happy-holidays-from-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)

In a message dated 11/10/08 6:42:59 AM, harand8479@aol.com writes: > It was my understanding that not all of the information available at LDS is > online yet.? Can you imagine how much data there is at Salt Lake in the > vaults? > > In the 1980s, they said it would take forty years to get it all on then, and there are thousands more now. We are trying to get a million volunteers world wide. Last fall it was 35,000 and the last I heard was 160,000. By now there are many more. We did 9 million names in September. Anyone can volunteer. It is very rewarding work. I've done over 300,000 names. Usually I arbitrate, which is checking the differences between the work of two people on the same record. Then they go online. Yes, there will be mistakes. Reading the original records can be challenging. The other day I did a typed record. It was about as clear as a record can be. 1945. Would you believe that both indexers made more mistakes with it than with a very difficult record? I was amazed because there were no questions about what the letter or number was! Records from all over the world, in many languages are also being done. I'm hoping that once some French records are done, I will find my family. ************** AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchb log.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear000000 01)

In a message dated 11/10/08 6:28:42 AM, gfb-ishida@gol.com writes: > Is it possible that Laura died and Charles at some point remarried and  > was in a different location in Iowa than his original Iowa residence  > of Blackhawk? > Charles died in Janesville, Iowa, in 1923 and Laura died two years later. They were my grandparents although I never met them. I have their marriage license from 1870. ************** AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-ho lidays-from-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)

It was my understanding that not all of the information available at LDS is online yet.? Can you imagine how much data there is at Salt Lake in the vaults? -----Original Message----- From: Nutmeg421@aol.com To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 7:14 am Subject: Re: [A-L] Bischwiller In a message dated 11/10/08 4:00:13 AM, georgeandeve@embarqmail.com writes: > The key though is to > learn the town name. > I've tried this for thirty years or more. I've used the FHCs often. I hate microfilms, so I'm happy they are been put on line. In fact, I work on them all the time. ************** AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holid ays-from-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 11/10/08 4:00:13 AM, georgeandeve@embarqmail.com writes: > The key though is to > learn the town name. > I've tried this for thirty years or more. I've used the FHCs often. I hate microfilms, so I'm happy they are been put on line. In fact, I work on them all the time. ************** AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holid ays-from-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)

I first learned of this resource from another researcher whose family came from the same town we suspected ours did and she sent me some of these records that she had found. If you know the town, you can get a microfilm from the LDS church. You can search their holdings at familysearch.org and then request the film be sent to your local LDS family history center. Then the fun really begins because the documents are written in old French or German script. Very VERY difficult to read even if you know the language. I studied resources I found online about deciphering old script and then figured out what my family name would look like. Did I mention there is no index for this microfilm??? Then you sit at the microfilm reader and look at each page until you find one that seems to show your family name. Then you bring it home and try to figure out what it says. I had help from some people on this website who were more familiar with these documents, but I spent a great deal of time with a French/English dictionary and a will to succeed! I understand there are people who will translate for a fee also, but I am stubborn enough to want to do it on my own. The key though is to learn the town name. -----Original Message----- From: alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Nutmeg421@aol.com Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 5:31 AM To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [A-L] Bischwiller In a message dated 11/10/08 3:19:04 AM, georgeandeve@embarqmail.com writes: > I found most > of the records about them in the French/Napoleonic documents of the early > 1800s, some of which were in German, some in French! > How did you find these? Thanks. ************** AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=htt p://searchblog.aol.com /2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 11/9/08 10:20:23 PM, brian@amason.net writes: > The information may > not have come directly from the subject in question, but from a: wife, > child, neighbor, friend, or the census taker. > The information came from Charles himself,always. His wife was uneducated. ************** AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from-aol -search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)

In a message dated 11/10/08 3:19:04 AM, georgeandeve@embarqmail.com writes: > I found most > of the records about them in the French/Napoleonic documents of the early > 1800s, some of which were in German, some in French! > How did you find these? Thanks. ************** AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com /2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)

In a message dated 11/9/08 8:57:22 PM, gfb-ishida@gol.com writes: > Jean, > > Where did Charles (and Nicholas) settle in the United States? Do you  > know their professions? > > They were farmers. Charles was 18 and Nicholas,12, so they were not any profession yet really. They spent a year in Ohio with their sister until she moved to Waterloo, Iowa for a time Charles got a job as a conductor on a railroad. When Mary moved to Michigan, he stayed in Iowa, marrying Laura Zimmerman in 1870. Later he became a farmer. Nicholas settled in Buchanon County, Iowa, but he died around 1880. ************** AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/ha ppy-holidays-from-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)

My understanding is that most of southern Germany was at one time considered Bavaria. But part of Germany was also conquered by Napoleon and was therefore part of Alsace-Lorraine at that time. My ancestors' records state they were from Prussia, Bavaria, Klingen, or Klingenburg, but I found most of the records about them in the French/Napoleonic documents of the early 1800s, some of which were in German, some in French! You need to know the town though to find these. There is a Klingen in what is still considered Bavaria, and we always thought that was our ancestors' home, but with a lot of digging, and reading discovered our family was really from the Klingen close to the border with France in SW Germany. -----Original Message----- From: alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Linda H. Gutierrez Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 2:30 AM To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [A-L] Bischwiller Brian wrote: >Bavaria is just so far out there, it is highly improbable an Alsatian would claim to be Bavarian. >Alsace and Lorraine were a part of Prussia for a period of time. Brian, The Rheinland Pfalz, also known as the Palatinate, was for a long time part of Bavaria, so there was in fact a part of Bavaria that was near to Alsace. Alsace and Lorraine were a part of the German Empire 1871-1914, but were known as Elsass & Lothringen. Linda in Costa Rica Monroe County, NY Records and Family Genealogy http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monroenys/ Monroe County, NY History http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monroenys/ -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Brian wrote: >Bavaria is just so far out there, it is highly improbable an Alsatian would claim to be Bavarian. >Alsace and Lorraine were a part of Prussia for a period of time. Brian, The Rheinland Pfalz, also known as the Palatinate, was for a long time part of Bavaria, so there was in fact a part of Bavaria that was near to Alsace. Alsace and Lorraine were a part of the German Empire 1871-1914, but were known as Elsass & Lothringen. Linda in Costa Rica Monroe County, NY Records and Family Genealogy http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monroenys/ Monroe County, NY History http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monroenys/

> said he was born in Alsace. He was French and his native tongue was > French. Many Alsatians native tongue up until post WWII was Alsatian. Which is a Germanic dialect. Alsatians certainly spoke French and German, but Alsatian would have been the language of everyday use. > In later census records he said he was born in Bavaria or Prussia. I know Don't believe everything you read in census records. The information may not have come directly from the subject in question, but from a: wife, child, neighbor, friend, or the census taker. You have to use your own judgment on whether a particular "fact" fits with what you already know. So don't let conflicting "facts" confuse you. Just record them and give them a believability factor. Baden (especially the Black Forest) borders on both the Haut-Rhin and Bas-Rhin departments. Loraine borders partly on Hesse-Darmstadt. Haut-Rhin also borders on Switzerland. No part of France borders on Bavaria. Of course depending on the date, Prussia controlled most all of modern day Germany, and then some. Alsace and Lorraine were a part of Prussia for a period of time. I can see an Alsatian claiming to be a citizen of Prussia, or a censor taker indicating such. Bavaria is just so far out there, it is highly improbable an Alsatian would claim to be Bavarian. Your best bet is to take some time and learn something about Alsace-Lorraine during the period of time your ancestors lived there. You would gain a much better understanding and be much less confused. Get some old maps, too. Brian

In a message dated 11/9/08 11:49:50 AM, wasieerick@milwpc.com writes: > I think it might be easier to try to track "Brunon. > Brunon is a very common name mostly in Lorraine. She was Catholic. I do not know about Adam Becker. He may have been Jewish, but he was not Catholic. I do not think Adam Becker ever moved from where he was born, in Alsace. He died there. Someone has to recognize them eventually. You have given me hope. Thanks. ************** AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from- aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)