Hi Joe, Sharon & anybody else..... You can try http://les.guillotines.free.fr Also here are some free translation sites. www.freetranslation.com http://translation2.paralink.com http://babelfish.yahoo.com www.online-translator.com Hope that helps you & anyone else out. Good Luck, Patricia

Can someone help me with a French translation? Thanks, Sharon Klusek -----Original Message----- From: alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Joseph E Wolfe Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 2:54 PM To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [A-L] ALSACE-LORRAINE Digest, Vol 3, Issue 289 Sharon: forgot to tell you that there is a web site that has info on the people guillotined during the French Revolutlion. sorry, do not know the www. joe wolfe ____________________________________________________________ Click here to find the satellite television package that meets your needs. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3mzv0M4rQpXsR7XcVlvFBV NQa1kXXA4xPEf9Yga1jmBZoHJb/ -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message This email transmission may contain CONFIDENTIAL, PRIVILEGED, and or PROTECTED INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by email, do not disseminate or copy and delete immediately.

> From: brian@amason.net >> Secondly, pre-WW1 newspaper were definitely NOT in Alsatian, for a >> simple reason: Alsatian dialect is NOT written. Its written form >> is ... German. Even today there is no standard and widely used >> writing for Alsatian. > My last comment on this thread. Prior to Luther creating a standard > for > German, Alsatian certainly had a written form. Or perhaps multiple > forms. > So it would not be correct to say Alsatian has no written form. > Certainly > there are words unique to Alsatian, and when I say the papers were > written > in Alsatian, perhaps, I'm not speaking as clearly as I should. What I > really meant to say is that the papers would be in Standard German > with > many borrowed words from both French and uniquely Alsatian words. > Although > spellings would probably vary and of course the two main dialects > manifesting themselves in either the northern Franconian form or > southern > Allemanic form. Sure, but we were speaking about the 19th and 20th centuries. Not about Luther's times. >> Let me add a few words about this. I do not totally agree about the >> feeling of Alsatians to be French as an effect of Nazi atrocities. >> This feeling is much older than WW II. > I come to this conclusion based solely on the linguistic literature > available over the times and the percentage of persons known to speak > Alsatian. There was a very noticeable shift post WWII, from German to > French, with accompanying less borrowings of German and of more French > borrowings in German. Certainly it was not something that just > happened > over night. So, the existing clues point to post WWII being the final > tipping point. Although it may be tipping back. Didn't Alsatian > independence movements also exist well beyond WWI, but are none > existent > post WWII? Sure my evidence is anecdotal at best. But, that's my > conclusion, unless oyu can convince me otherwise? Yes, there were autonomist movements in Alsace between WW1 and WW2. Even now, there are some, but their importance is extremely negligible. One should also mention that speaking Alsatian was fordidden in schools during certain periods after WW2. >> E.g. Napoleon was very popular in Alsace. > Really, and was Robespierre as popular in Alsace? I'll bet they loved > being part of France during the Reign of Terror. As well as learning > a new > calendar. Anyone ever get comfortable with that? > ;') Terror and Napoleon Empire are different periods. Of course Alsace suffered a lot, like all other regions, from the Robespierre terrible period. The reign of Napoleon was felt as a period of social stabilisation, like a relief after the Terror atrocities. Best regards, Etienne

I suggest an online resource concerning the translation of the Bible into German including Martin Luther's (who used the Hebrew (for the OT) and Greek, plus the Latin Vulgate.　 http://www.bible-researcher.com/luther02.html a chapter taken from Philip Schaff's History of the Christian Church (New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1910). Last year when I visited a gg grandmother's birthplace, Niederroedern, most of the people I met (children excluded, because I didn't have the chance to talk with any) still speak French, German and Alsatian. I attended the Lutheran service of Reformation Sunday. Both German and French were used and the sermon was in German. In fact, I went to speak to an elderly woman in French and she replied in German that she could speak only German! I also attended the Catholic service which was exclusively in French, probably because the priest (no resident priest now) was from Africa. And yes, the church is used by both, one of remaining some 50 in the Bas Rhin who do that within the simultaneum. Gloria and don't think my last name is strange. My husband is Japanese and a Lutheran theologian. My father's side if the family - Roman Catholic originating from Lorraine. And other ancestors - German, Irish and English. On Nov 13, 2008, at 5:12 PM, brian@amason.net wrote: >> Secondly, pre-WW1 newspaper were definitely NOT in Alsatian, for a >> simple reason: Alsatian dialect is NOT written. Its written form >> is ... German. Even today there is no standard and widely used >> writing for Alsatian. > My last comment on this thread. Prior to Luther creating a standard > for > German, Alsatian certainly had a written form. Or perhaps multiple > forms. > So it would not be correct to say Alsatian has no written form. > Certainly > there are words unique to Alsatian, and when I say the papers were > written > in Alsatian, perhaps, I'm not speaking as clearly as I should. What I > really meant to say is that the papers would be in Standard German > with > many borrowed words from both French and uniquely Alsatian words. > Although > spellings would probably vary and of course the two main dialects > manifesting themselves in either the northern Franconian form or > southern > Allemanic form. > Although, I don't ever recall saying Alsatian had any standard to > it. THat > was probably one of Luther's major complaints. > > Thanks for being patient with me. ;) > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

Looking for info (parents etc.) on Dominique Grosdidier (b. about 1799 in  France Department of Moselle at Valmont and died abt 1874 in Vincennes, Knox Co., IN). Dominique was married to Gabriella Grard (b. abt 1817 in France and died abt 1880 in Vincennes, Knox Co., IN. Dominique, wife Gabrielle and daughter Honare (Honorine) Grosdidier arrivied 6-16-1851 in New Orlean on the ship CARACK. >From Dominique Grosdidier's WILL, I know the following: THE WILL of Dominique Grosdidier, Made Vincennes, Knox Co., IN, 10-29-1868; (The proof of Will was declared & testified (probated) on the 1-30-1874 in court in Knox Co., IN) I undersigner Dominique Grosdidier, born in France, Department of Moselle, at Valmont , now residing near Vincennes, county of Knox, State of Indiana, United State of North America. Wishing to settle all my worldly interests, in provision of my death happening before that of my beloved wife Gabrielle Girard, and to save her the troubles of administrate have by these present made my last will & testament. I bequeath unto her the property & possession of all my real & personal properties consisting in this country in a farm near Vincennes continuous of twenty one acres & in France of several pieces of parcels of lands, whose designation, value & situation are to be ascertained by consulting Deeds in the hands of McClause Notary Public at Valmont Department of Moselle, & which she will dispose of after me as being her own , there in this Country no restriction & no reason in favor children, & we having already provided for our children whom we love & to whom I command a complete observance to my last will. Made at Vincennes this twenty ninth of October 1868. signed by Dominique Grosdidier This was witnessed in the County of Knox, State of Indiana. on 10-29-1868, but can not make out the witnesses signature. But in the January 30, 1874 document it list a Cyr Poullet and Andrew Stengel. If anyone can help me here with info or guide me to where and how I might find something.  I would very much appreciate it. THANK You,  Ty Goodart  I would very much appreciate it. THANK You,  Ty Goodart

Congratulations, Ty -- you have the KEY; you have the village / commune name. A search for Valmont in the Family History Library Catalog yields both church and civil records, but this set of films looks like the best place to start: Title Registres de l'état civil de Valmont (Moselle), 1792-1892 Authors Valmont (Moselle). Officier de l'état civil (Main Author) Note Location Film Naissances, publications de mariage, mariages, décès 1792-1838 FHL INTL Film 2005037 Items 2-4 Naissances, publications de mariage, mariages, décès 1839-1889 FHL INTL Film 2005038 Naissances, publications de mariage, mariages, décès 1890-1892 VAULT INTL Film 2005039 Item 1 Since this is a vault film, you would only be able to consult it at the LDS Library in Salt Lake City, by previous arrangement. However, since it covers the same time-period as the 2005038 filming, presumably you will not need it.) To learn how to search the FHL Catalog yourself, see: http://genweblog.blogspot.com/2006/03/make-family-history-library-catalog.html If you have not ordered FHL films before, see: http://genweblog.blogspot.com/2006/12/your-local-family-history-center.html All the best, Valorie On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 8:24 AM, <bjgtgg@comcast.net> wrote: > > > Looking for info (parents etc.) on Dominique Grosdidier (b. about 1799 in France Department of Moselle at Valmont and died abt 1874 in Vincennes, Knox Co., IN). Dominique was married to Gabriella Grard (b. abt 1817 in France and died abt 1880 in Vincennes, Knox Co., IN. Dominique, wife Gabrielle and daughter Honare (Honorine) Grosdidier arrivied 6-16-1851 in New Orlean on the ship CARACK. ::snip:: -- Facebook: http://www.new.facebook.com/profile.php?id=507013560 LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/valoriez MySpace: http://www.myspace.com/valoriez Genealogy Blog: http://genweblog.blogspot.com/ All my pages: http://valorie.zimmerman.googlepages.com

I was not aware of this ~ thanks for making my day!! Maryann ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Francis<mailto:dave.francis@sbcglobal.net> To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com<mailto:alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:34 AM Subject: Re: [A-L] Guillotine victim names - website Hi, I don't know if everyone is aware of this search option in google. I find that it makes looking for names a lot easier. Just use the "site" qualifier in your search line. For example, to find all of the instances of "Bas-Rhin" in the website just listed, type the following into the google search field: Bas-Rhin site:http://les.guillotines.free.fr/ This works for almost any website. Dave John Bachmann wrote: > Karen, > Thanks for the web site. One of my cousins was head of the Swiss Guard, was > ordered to surrender and was guilotined, either von Bachmann or Bachmann. > Not on this particular web site. Any suggestions? > Thanks, > John > > On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 3:54 AM, Karen Crisalli <karencrisalli@sc.rr.com>wrote<mailto:karencrisalli@sc.rr.com%3Ewrote>: > > >> The free website listing most if not all the victims of the guillotine is >> located at: http://les.guillotines.free.fr/<http://les.guillotines.free.fr/> Even if you don't speak >> French, the site is very easy to search alphabetically. >> >> For Sharon: there is no 'Filliaux' listed, but there is a 'Filoux, Simon' >> that you might want to investigate. >> >> Karen Gauny Crisalli >> South Carolina, USA >> >> -- >> Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com> with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> -- Dave Francis, CNJ Santa Cruz, California -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm> ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi, I don't know if everyone is aware of this search option in google. I find that it makes looking for names a lot easier. Just use the "site" qualifier in your search line. For example, to find all of the instances of "Bas-Rhin" in the website just listed, type the following into the google search field: Bas-Rhin site:http://les.guillotines.free.fr/ This works for almost any website. Dave John Bachmann wrote: > Karen, > Thanks for the web site. One of my cousins was head of the Swiss Guard, was > ordered to surrender and was guilotined, either von Bachmann or Bachmann. > Not on this particular web site. Any suggestions? > Thanks, > John > > On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 3:54 AM, Karen Crisalli <karencrisalli@sc.rr.com>wrote: > > >> The free website listing most if not all the victims of the guillotine is >> located at: http://les.guillotines.free.fr/ Even if you don't speak >> French, the site is very easy to search alphabetically. >> >> For Sharon: there is no 'Filliaux' listed, but there is a 'Filoux, Simon' >> that you might want to investigate. >> >> Karen Gauny Crisalli >> South Carolina, USA >> >> -- >> Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> -- Dave Francis, CNJ Santa Cruz, California

Karen, Thanks for the web site. One of my cousins was head of the Swiss Guard, was ordered to surrender and was guilotined, either von Bachmann or Bachmann. Not on this particular web site. Any suggestions? Thanks, John On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 3:54 AM, Karen Crisalli <karencrisalli@sc.rr.com>wrote: > The free website listing most if not all the victims of the guillotine is > located at: http://les.guillotines.free.fr/ Even if you don't speak > French, the site is very easy to search alphabetically. > > For Sharon: there is no 'Filliaux' listed, but there is a 'Filoux, Simon' > that you might want to investigate. > > Karen Gauny Crisalli > South Carolina, USA > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

The free website listing most if not all the victims of the guillotine is located at: http://les.guillotines.free.fr/ Even if you don't speak French, the site is very easy to search alphabetically. For Sharon: there is no 'Filliaux' listed, but there is a 'Filoux, Simon' that you might want to investigate. Karen Gauny Crisalli South Carolina, USA

Cream of the day to you! I loved that mail Martine -----Original Message----- From: brian@amason.net To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 8:12 Subject: Re: [A-L] Alsatian history and immigration. Well, having Irish, Dutch, French, Swiss, Scottish and German in my genes, hasn't helped my temperament much, and being married to a Swedish, Norwegian Dane isn't considered too bright a combination either. Plus add in a child who is a blend of the two certainly adds excitement to the mix. You, and everyone in shoutin' distance would certainly know it, if I felt I'd been offended. ;) Fortunately, there is Scotch and Whiskey to tone things down a bit. ;) Although, as you may have noticed - I've been showing my stubborn streak just a tad. ;) I find it best to give wide latitudes on the internet. Without history of the people you communicate with and a complete lack of facial expression, it's really hard to put a tone to the words. In other words, a thick skin is the best approach to mailing lists. I do what I can to help, and getting the occasional thank you, is my reward. I have been helped by some many, I still have a long ways to go to pay it forward. I hope you succeed it breaking through that wall. Besides, I love a good "discussion". Sometimes, I even learn something. Not that you can tell an Irishman much. ;')> That's me winking and showing my beard. Brian -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ AOL Email goes Mobile! You can now read your AOL Emails whilst on the move. Sign up for a free AOL Email account with unlimited storage today.

If this can help:? I have seen that there are 2 books at the "Geneanet shop" which give the list of the people who died on the guillotine but I don't know what you can find in them as I havn't them myself. When you are in the shop you have to select "History & Traditions" then "French revolution". I hope someone has a better answer to give you and I wish you good luck for your researches. Martine -----Original Message----- From: Klusek, Sharon A <sklusek@mdmercy.com> To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Sent: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 15:26 Subject: Re: [A-L] ALSACE-LORRAINE Digest, Vol 3, Issue 289 There was a "Filliaux" that was executed at the guillotine during the reign of Louis XIV. I am trying to find his first name and any additional information. Does anyone know how I would go about this? Thanks, Sharon -----Original Message----- From: alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of arlene Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 6:05 PM To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [A-L] ALSACE-LORRAINE Digest, Vol 3, Issue 289 Possibly of interest to the current interests of the listers? "The major part of Alsace became French after the Treatises of Westphalia (1648), however some territories and towns did so later (Strasbourg 1681, Mulhouse 1799). The French King Louis XIV thought it was better "not to touch to Alsatian affairs", even though he favored the Catholics wherever he could and the Protestants were subjected to much vexation and injustice (but no real persecution as in "old" France). Even though Alsace was French in 1685, the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes had no dramatic effects in Alsace, apart of course that many French Huguenots crossed Alsace to flee to Germany and many of them even settled down in Alsace (especially Bischwiller and Sainte-Marie-aux-Mines)". -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message This email transmission may contain CONFIDENTIAL, PRIVILEGED, and or PROTECTED INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by email, do not disseminate or copy and delete immediately. -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm -------- ----------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ AOL Email goes Mobile! You can now read your AOL Emails whilst on the move. Sign up for a free AOL Email account with unlimited storage today.

On Wed, November 12, 2008 2:09 pm, Etienne Herrbach wrote: > Thank you Brian, this is interesting. > > Let me add a few words about this. I do not totally agree about the > feeling of Alsatians to be French as an effect of Nazi atrocities. > This feeling is much older than WW II. I come to this conclusion based solely on the linguistic literature available over the times and the percentage of persons known to speak Alsatian. There was a very noticeable shift post WWII, from German to French, with accompanying less borrowings of German and of more French borrowings in German. Certainly it was not something that just happened over night. So, the existing clues point to post WWII being the final tipping point. Although it may be tipping back. Didn't Alsatian independence movements also exist well beyond WWI, but are none existent post WWII? Sure my evidence is anecdotal at best. But, that's my conclusion, unless oyu can convince me otherwise? > E.g. Napoleon was very popular in Alsace. Really, and was Robespierre as popular in Alsace? I'll bet they loved being part of France during the Reign of Terror. As well as learning a new calendar. Anyone ever get comfortable with that? ;') Well, I'm off to grab my daily 4 hours of sleep. I have another long day ahead of me, as always. Great hearing your input. PS. I'm not afraid of sites only in French. Even though my French is atrocious (sorry Gramma).

> Secondly, pre-WW1 newspaper were definitely NOT in Alsatian, for a > simple reason: Alsatian dialect is NOT written. Its written form > is ... German. Even today there is no standard and widely used > writing for Alsatian. My last comment on this thread. Prior to Luther creating a standard for German, Alsatian certainly had a written form. Or perhaps multiple forms. So it would not be correct to say Alsatian has no written form. Certainly there are words unique to Alsatian, and when I say the papers were written in Alsatian, perhaps, I'm not speaking as clearly as I should. What I really meant to say is that the papers would be in Standard German with many borrowed words from both French and uniquely Alsatian words. Although spellings would probably vary and of course the two main dialects manifesting themselves in either the northern Franconian form or southern Allemanic form. Although, I don't ever recall saying Alsatian had any standard to it. THat was probably one of Luther's major complaints. Thanks for being patient with me. ;)

Well, having Irish, Dutch, French, Swiss, Scottish and German in my genes, hasn't helped my temperament much, and being married to a Swedish, Norwegian Dane isn't considered too bright a combination either. Plus add in a child who is a blend of the two certainly adds excitement to the mix. You, and everyone in shoutin' distance would certainly know it, if I felt I'd been offended. ;) Fortunately, there is Scotch and Whiskey to tone things down a bit. ;) Although, as you may have noticed - I've been showing my stubborn streak just a tad. ;) I find it best to give wide latitudes on the internet. Without history of the people you communicate with and a complete lack of facial expression, it's really hard to put a tone to the words. In other words, a thick skin is the best approach to mailing lists. I do what I can to help, and getting the occasional thank you, is my reward. I have been helped by some many, I still have a long ways to go to pay it forward. I hope you succeed it breaking through that wall. Besides, I love a good "discussion". Sometimes, I even learn something. Not that you can tell an Irishman much. ;')> That's me winking and showing my beard. Brian

Thank you Brian, this is interesting. Let me add a few words about this. I do not totally agree about the feeling of Alsatians to be French as an effect of Nazi atrocities. This feeling is much older than WW II. E.g. Napoleon was very popular in Alsace. Several of his best generals were Alsatians: Kleber, Kellermann, Lefebvre, Rapp, Bruat, etc. Moreover, why did so many Alsatians and Mosellans leave their homes after the German annexion in 1871? Remmber the so-called "option" (1872 onwards). Many emigrated to America, to "old" France (French Lorraine particularly), to Algeria. Of course there were also economical reasons for the Alsatian emigration during the 1800s, but the number of emigrants raised considerably after the 1871. Finally, why did the Alsatian population welcome so warmly the French armies in 1918 and the re-union to France? (even though some disappointments appeared later on). All the best, Etienne The German ('Prussian') annexation between 1871 and 1918 was not a > Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 00:54:23 -0600 (CST) > From: brian@amason.net > Let us not forget that at the end of the Thirty Years' War (i'e' the > Peace > of Westphalia) much of the Alsatian and other territories were > devastated > and there was considerable immigration into this fertile region. My > ancestors immigrated during this time from Switzerland. Also, the > recurring plagues help to decimate the population too. There were a > great > many plague outbreaks in the 1600s. It's not unusual in these years > to see > cousins (of varying degrees) marrying each other with church > dispensations. Lastly many rulers tried to subdue the Alsatian's > sense of > community (for lack of a better word at 1 am). It took the > atrocities of > the Nazis to make them want to identify as French. The Nazi's were > especially hard on the Alsatians, from what I've read.

> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 09:31:04 -0600 (CST) > From: brian@amason.net > > On Mon, November 10, 2008 8:06 am, Etienne Herrbach wrote: >> >> a few precisions on Brian's post : >> >>> Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:19:23 -0600 (CST) >>> From: brian@amason.net >>> >>>> said he was born in Alsace. He was French and his native tongue was >>>> French. >>> Many Alsatians native tongue up until post WWII was Alsatian. Which >>> is a Germanic dialect. Alsatians certainly spoke French and >>> German, but >>> Alsatian would have been the language of everyday use. >> >> Before WWI, very few Alsatians in the countryside understood French. >> They spoke dialect and understood German. Particularly the >> newspapers >> and the Catholic and Protestant worships were mainly in German (with >> some local exceptions). > I still disagree here. First I never said "every" Alsatian spoke > French > and German. Secondly pre-WWI local newspapers more commonly in > Alsatian. > Not French or German. Still I would have expected Catholic worships > to be > in Latin. I too, still disagree, dear Brian. First, I never said that you said... etc. Secondly, pre-WW1 newspaper were definitely NOT in Alsatian, for a simple reason: Alsatian dialect is NOT written. Its written form is ... German. Even today there is no standard and widely used writing for Alsatian. Moreover, how can a dialect, which differs between areas, be standardized? From south to north, it evolves from High Alemannic forms to Frankish. See: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsacien -- in French -- particularly click on the map. >>>> Alsace and Lorraine were a part of Prussia for a period of time. >> >> Alsace and Moselle were part of the German Empire ruled by the >> Prussians, between 1871 and 1918. > No Elsass and Lothringen were part of the German Empire. > Moselle was created from the province of Lorraine in the 1780s. You > can > call it Moselle, put it doesn't alter the fact it was a part of > Lorraine. Of course, Brian, Moselle is part of Lorraine (did I say the opposite?). Moselle is a French Departement (capital Metz), one of the four that form Lorraine. See: : http://membres.lycos.fr/g00ffrr5/cartes/carttexte/carte.htm -- in French too, sorry... I wrote "Alsace and Moselle" and not "Alsace and Lorraine" for a simple reason: as I mentionned several times on this list, ONLY Moselle was annexed to the German Empire in 1871. This is because Moselle belongs to the "Germanic-dialect speaking" area (Frankish dialect). The other 3 Departements of Lorraine (Meurthe et Moselle, Meuse, Vosges) remained in France. The annexed parts (Moselle and Alsace, minus the 'Territoire de Belfort') were called (improperly) by the Germans "Reichsland Elsass-Lothringen" (Alsace-Lorraine), howerer the major part of Lorraine was NOT included. Having said this, one should add that the border of Moselle changed somewhat during these tribulations. The borders of Meurthe (now Meurthe et Moselle) and Vosges Departements also charged a bit. See the map: http://splaf.free.fr/ -- then click "Departements modifies" Best wishes, Etienne Alsace

Thank you Arlene. However, you forgot to mention the source (book or website, author) of this quotation. Etienne > Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:05:21 -0500 > From: "arlene" <arb87@sover.net> > > Possibly of interest to the current interests of the listers? > > "The major part of Alsace became French after the Treatises of > Westphalia > (1648), however some territories and towns did so later (Strasbourg > 1681, > Mulhouse 1799). The French King Louis XIV thought it was better "not > to > touch to Alsatian affairs", even though he favored the Catholics > wherever he > could and the Protestants were subjected to much vexation and > injustice (but > no real persecution as in "old" France). Even though Alsace was > French in > 1685, the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes had no dramatic effects in > Alsace, apart of course that many French Huguenots crossed Alsace to > flee to > Germany and many of them even settled down in Alsace (especially > Bischwiller > and Sainte-Marie-aux-Mines)".

Thank you Steve. I do not know about the GUTKNECHTs. Duppigheim is more than 30 km apart from Bischwiller. Moreover, this surname exists in the south of Alsace. Good luck! Etienne > Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 11:57:07 -0500 > From: "Steve Haag" <Bonesearcher@att.net> > > Etienne, > > I too am related to the Guthnecks but they are from Duppigheim. I'm > sure it > is the same family. Do believe the name was unique. I have all the > Catholic > Church records for Duppigheim but not for Bischwiller. Do you have > these two > groups of Guthneck's tied together. > > Thank you, > Steve haag > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Etienne Herrbach" <etienne.herrbach@wanadoo.fr> > Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 5:42 AM >> Hello Listers, >> >> as many of you are aware of, let me remind that the new President of >> USA has Alsatian roots, in Bischwiller, Bas Rhin, precisely: >> >> http://cjoint.com/data/lhtTgjvwwt.htm >> >> http://www.wargs.com/political/obama.html >> >> Congratulations >> >> Etienne Herrbach >> Alsace

I would love to see what one looks like. Thank you for your generosity! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie" <csherida@tampabay.rr.com> To: <alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 2:24 PM Subject: [A-L] Civil Registrations also at local level for Bas-Rhin ONLY Civil Registration at the Local Level for Bas-Rhin ONLY. I can only definitely speak for one village in Bas-Rhin, Oberseebach. However, in Riedseltz the original registers are not available for public viewing. What is available is exact copies of originals that have been bound in a register book format. Looks good but not as enjoyable as actually viewing the original. If anyone is interested in what a church register might look like I can send them an attachment of a photograph I took. To the best of my knowledge the requirement was to complete 2 register books. One is kept at the local level and the other is housed at the Archives in Strasbourg. I know that there are 2 books as I've compared some copied documents from books at the mairie in Seebach with those filmed by LDS and have found some differences. This was done when I arrived home and could make that determination. Ex. signature is in a different location; data included in one book is missing in the other, etc. I lucked out with one when the maiden name was included in the village book but was excluded from the filmed register. NB: everything written in the register is not always accurate just like everything written on a U.S. death certificate doesn't mean it's correct. What has been a mystery is why some village books are exactly the same as those filmed by LDS while others differ. Did LDS also visit a village if, for example, the Archives book was damaged? But you can't review and determine if both books are the same unless you visit that village. It's always better to see the actual book. Margin loss has hindered many a researcher who can only review the records on film. If you have the films then looking at the index can also assist you in possibly locating other family members that married outside their home village or moved and had their own family. My tendency has been to extend families outside my own direct line. In so doing I've been in a unique position to not only assist my distant American and Canadian cousins but to help my Alsatian cousins as well. It also has allowed me when visiting to meet cousins that I never would have known if I did not use this method. I don't know who was responsible for compiling the 10 year Indexes but they are not the same as those in community films. These were compiled later by using 10 years of records and alphabetizing them. Also there are in some village books years where no indexes were compiled. There are many church registers, or so I believe, that have never been filmed and these are the church registers for the late 18th, the 19th and of course the 20th century. Years ago I did see an earlier Catholic register (17th-18th century) for a village south of Strasbourg that I was told had never been microfilmed. This book was in the possession of a family in that village. Registers might be found in the rectory or in the case of Protestant registers they could be in a repository in Strasbourg. Protestant registers are most likely written in German while Catholic registers are in Latin. Perhaps someone living in Alsace could correct or add to my response. Charlie Homosassa, FL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carolyn "Cari" Thomas" <western37@cox.net> To: <alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 1:49 AM Subject: [A-L] KEYWORD: Niederroedern....RE: Civil Registrations also at county level..... >Hi fellow Canadian-- Go to LDS family search site- - - get the Library catalogue- - - then go to KEYWORD.- - - then put in the word Orting- - - I think you will be surprised what is available for Oeting. Most people will go to the cataloge, and do not use this also. Many things are not in the catalogue the way WE think they should be and this is a good source also. Miriam Hall Hansen Many thanks, Miriam, on behalf of this non-Canadian, too, who had not thought to use the KEYWORD search on the FHL Catalog search page! I've now discovered, thanks to KEYWORD, that Niederroedern (Bas-Rhin) is included in a canton/county-wide Civil Registration Index 1813-1882 as well as its own municipal index. Here's this new (to me) source: Tables décennales, 1813-1882: Seltz (Bas-Rhin : Canton). Greffe du Tribunal d'Instance Microfilmage des originaux dans les Archives départementales, Strasbourg. Le canton de Seltz comprend les communes de: Seltz, Aschbach, Beinheim, Buhl, Croettwiller, Eberbach-Seltz, Kesseldorf, Mothern, Munchhausen, NIEDERROEDERN, Oberlauterbach, Schaffhouse-pres-Seltz, Siegen, Stund- willer, Trimbach, et Wintzenbach. Ten year indexes for the canton of Seltz, Bas-Rhin, France (also called Selz, Elsaß-Lothringen, Germany). Text in French and German. 1813-1832 FHL INTL Film 742564 1833-1842 FHL INTL Film 742565 1843-1862 FHL INTL Film 742566 1863-1872 FHL INTL Film 1165948 Item 1 1813-1832 (un autre filmage) FHL INTL Film 797389 1833-1862 (un autre filmage) FHL INTL Film 797390 1873-1882 FHL INTL Film 1733512 Item 3 I've some questions for our experts, please: 1. Can anyone comment on the differences (or similarities) between the municipal/Niederroedern registration indexes (which I've already used, and have on indefinite loan at the local FHC) and these county indexes? Would it make sense to look at these too? 2. Can anyone tell me whether there's an advantage to utilizing 2nd filmings rather than the original films? Were 2nd filmings done exclusively in cases of poor microfilming originally? Or were there different reasons? 3. Since there's only indexes and no listing of actual records in the canton films, am I correct that one must then go to the municipality/Niederroedern civil reg: b/m/d records for the actual records, once identified in the indexes. In other words, the municipality sent copies of the indexes only to the county level? Thanks for your on the spot knowledge, experts! Cari Thomas -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message