The word "Vicaire" is translated as "Vicar". Which is a Administrated deputy. Clergy has charge of mission or chapel. This is from the 14th, century. Can also use the words "Chaplin and Curate". This is from Babel & from a program I have called East Translator Deluxe 4. Hope it helped. Happy New Year. Patricia

Strange... Dave didn't see Bob's response, whereas I didn't see Dave's original question (I saw it in Bob's post), nor Giliane's response(tjat I could see on the list archives). Etienne Le 3 janv. 09 à 18:55, Dave Francis a écrit : > Hmmm, interesting that I never saw Bob's response. Thanks for > including it > here. And, thank you for both of your responses.

Dave and listers, it is not "suaire". Most probably "vicaire" (even though the "v" differs from other "v" in the tex). Or, as Bob wrote, the end of a word on the previous page, but I don't see which. A happy New Year to all listers ! Etienne Le 3 janv. 09 à 16:47, ROBERT TEITELBAUM a écrit : > Dave, > > I read "suaire" which is shroud in English. What is/are the > previous word(s)? > > Bob Teitelbaum > > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 21:17:48 -0800 > From: Dave Francis <dave.francis@sbcglobal.net> > > Hi all, > I have another French occupation which I can't figure out. If you > take > a look at http://www.dave-francis.com/Picture%20150%20copy.jpg you'll > see part of a death registration, dated 1869, from Niederstinzel. The > first word on the page is an occupation and appears to be "sicaire". > The only translation I can find for sicaire is assassin. I find that > hard to believe. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks. > Dave > > -- > > Dave Francis, CNJ > Santa Cruz, California

The adjective "sec" means dry or arid, and the verb "secher" means to dry up or to season wood. I am wondering whether the "sicaire" or "secaire" could be the person who conducts this process. Just a guess! Carol-Germaine Bruner, San Diego, CA

I think we need to see the preceding page to verify that this is not the end of a word. I would think it is vicaire (a vicar) - Giliane -----Original Message----- From: alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of ROBERT TEITELBAUM Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 10:48 AM To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [A-L] ALSACE-LORRAINE Digest, Vol 4, Issue 1 Dave, I read "suaire" which is shroud in English.  What is/are the previous word(s)? Bob Teitelbaum Message: 1 Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 21:17:48 -0800 From: Dave Francis <dave.francis@sbcglobal.net> Subject: [A-L] Occupation To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <495EF4FC.3030507@sbcglobal.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Hi all, I have another French occupation which I can't figure out.  If you take a look at http://www.dave-francis.com/Picture%20150%20copy.jpg you'll see part of a death registration, dated 1869, from Niederstinzel.  The first word on the page is an occupation and appears to be "sicaire".  The only translation I can find for sicaire is assassin.  I find that hard to believe.  Does anyone have any ideas?  Thanks. Dave -- Dave Francis, CNJ Santa Cruz, California -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.2/1872 - Release Date: 1/2/2009 1:10 PM

>Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 21:17:48 -0800 >From: Dave Francis <dave.francis@sbcglobal.net> >Subject: [A-L] Occupation >Hi all, I have another French occupation which I can't figure out. If you take a look at http://www.dave-francis.com/Picture%20150%20copy.jpg you'll see part of a death registration, dated 1869, from Niederstinzel. The first word on the page is an occupation and appears to be "sicaire". The only translation I can find for sicaire is assassin. I find that hard to believe. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks. Hi Dave, I found your sicaire=hired assassin definition in a 1906 French-English dictionary, but - interestingly - not in my 1972 (French-French) Dictionnaire Bordas. What I did find in both, though, was a suaire=winding cloth/shroud/"linge pour essuyer la sueur (syn.: linceul)". I wonder if there might be a missing word at the bottom of the prior page; perhaps something that would indicate a "maker of" such shrouds? Or for that matter, is it possible the sicaire/suaire is the last part of a hyphenated word, with the first part at the bottom of the previous page? If you don't find some other DEFINITE option, I suggest you translate it as "hired assassin"; and note that there could be some other connotation to that "occupation" than the Lee Harvey Oswald that comes to my mind as an "assassin" --- for instance: a hangman? the guillotine blade-dropper (did he have an occupational title?), or in today's world: the switch-thrower or the person who does the hypodermic push? Good luck on this one....and thanks for bringing these interesting occupational decipher problems to the list. Cari Thomas

Hmmm, interesting that I never saw Bob's response. Thanks for including it here. And, thank you for both of your responses. The previous words on the previous page are his age: "age de vingt-cinq ans". "Vicaire" would make more sense then "Suaire". The people in this village didn't move around much, so the fact that he's living in another village would support the idea that he was a vicar. Plus, his father was the local school teacher, which would suggest that his children were well educated. Niederstinzel was a village of mostly laborers, farmers, and a few trades people. Dave Etienne Herrbach wrote: Dave and listers, it is not "suaire". Most probably "vicaire" (even though the "v" differs from other "v" in the tex). Or, as Bob wrote, the end of a word on the previous page, but I don't see which. A happy New Year to all listers ! Etienne Le 3 janv. 09 à 16:47, ROBERT TEITELBAUM a écrit : Dave, I read "suaire" which is shroud in English. What is/are the previous word(s)? Bob Teitelbaum Message: 1 Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 21:17:48 -0800 From: Dave Francis [1]<dave.francis@sbcglobal.net> Hi all, I have another French occupation which I can't figure out. If you take a look at [2]http://www.dave-francis.com/Picture%20150%20copy.jpg you'll see part of a death registration, dated 1869, from Niederstinzel. The first word on the page is an occupation and appears to be "sicaire". The only translation I can find for sicaire is assassin. I find that hard to believe. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks. Dave -- Dave Francis, CNJ Santa Cruz, California -- Dave Francis, CNJ Santa Cruz, California References 1. mailto:dave.francis@sbcglobal.net 2. http://www.dave-francis.com/Picture%20150%20copy.jpg

Dave, I read "suaire" which is shroud in English.  What is/are the previous word(s)? Bob Teitelbaum Message: 1 Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 21:17:48 -0800 From: Dave Francis <dave.francis@sbcglobal.net> Subject: [A-L] Occupation To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <495EF4FC.3030507@sbcglobal.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Hi all, I have another French occupation which I can't figure out.  If you take a look at http://www.dave-francis.com/Picture%20150%20copy.jpg you'll see part of a death registration, dated 1869, from Niederstinzel.  The first word on the page is an occupation and appears to be "sicaire".  The only translation I can find for sicaire is assassin.  I find that hard to believe.  Does anyone have any ideas?  Thanks. Dave -- Dave Francis, CNJ Santa Cruz, California

Hi all, I have another French occupation which I can't figure out. If you take a look at http://www.dave-francis.com/Picture%20150%20copy.jpg you'll see part of a death registration, dated 1869, from Niederstinzel. The first word on the page is an occupation and appears to be "sicaire". The only translation I can find for sicaire is assassin. I find that hard to believe. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks. Dave -- Dave Francis, CNJ Santa Cruz, California

Hi All, Thanks to all who answered with info on Johannesviller which seems to have been absorbed by Farschviller over the years. From what I had seen it was either very close or the same place with a different name. Paul Wingert At 01:05 AM 12/28/2008, you wrote: > >From: "P.& K.Wingert" <pkwingert@accesscomm.ca> > >Subject: Re: [A-L] Village of Johannesviller > >To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com > >Yes I should have specified that Johannesviller is in Moselle and probably >close to Forbach and Farschviller. > > Paul > >Hi Paul, > >Guy Marchal's Les Communes de Lorraine - ><http://gmarchal.free.fr/Repertoire.htm> lists this one: > >"Johannswiller, Hameau [a hamlet] de Farschviller.-57" > >It's entirely possible that the original village was close by Farschviller >in those days, and now has been "swallowed up" by the expansion of >Farschviller. You may, as I have, find that the once-village is now found >only as street/s or perhaps a neighborhood in the other village/town. > >In Burscheid, near Cologne, Germany, the village/dorf "Höhe" where one >grand-uncle was born in 1875 can only be found today as "Höhestrasse" > >Cari Thomas

Hi to all Cappel, Ellviller and JOHANNISWEILER are in the parish of Farschviller, Moselle A Kratz Carolyn "Cari" Thomas a écrit : >> From: "P.& K.Wingert" <pkwingert@accesscomm.ca> >> Subject: Re: [A-L] Village of Johannesviller >> To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com >> Yes I should have specified that Johannesviller is in Moselle and probably >> > close to Forbach and Farschviller. > >> Paul >> > > Hi Paul, > > Guy Marchal's Les Communes de Lorraine - > <http://gmarchal.free.fr/Repertoire.htm> lists this one: > > "Johannswiller, Hameau [a hamlet] de Farschviller.-57" > > It's entirely possible that the original village was close by Farschviller > in those days, and now has been "swallowed up" by the expansion of > Farschviller. You may, as I have, find that the once-village is now found > only as street/s or perhaps a neighborhood in the other village/town. > > In Burscheid, near Cologne, Germany, the village/dorf "Höhe" where one > grand-uncle was born in 1875 can only be found today as "Höhestrasse" > > Cari Thomas > > > >

Paul, I checked the Cassini map and found Hanweiler near Sarreguemines, the closest to Forbach and Farschviller (now called Rilchingen-Hanweiler, it went under Germany in 1815). No other indication of a Johannesviller in the immediate surrounding areas. See http://cartocassini.free.fr/cartecassini/141_fichiers/5-22-9.jpg But in checking the old villages names in Lorraine http://chartonf.club.fr/lorcom.html I also found a Hanviller in Moselle, further Ouest and closer to Schorbach. http://pays-de-bitche.wifeo.com/hanviller.php The first one may be what you are looking for. - Giliane -----Original Message----- From: alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of P.& K.Wingert Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 11:46 PM To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [A-L] Village of Johannesviller Yes I should have specified that Johannesviller is in Moselle and probably close to Forbach and Farschviller. Paul At 03:00 PM 12/27/2008, you wrote: >Where did you find the reference? It may help us find info. >Thanks! > >- Giliane >-----Original Message----- >From: alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com >[mailto:alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of P.& K.Wingert >Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 3:02 PM >To: ALSACE-LORRAINE-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [A-L] Village of Johannesviller > >Hi All, > Came across this village name in some records from the early >1700s but can't find it on recent maps. > Has the name changed or the village disappeared over the years? > > Thanks in advance, > > Paul Wingert, Regina SK > >-- >Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: >http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 - Release Date: 12/26/2008 >1:01 PM > >-- >Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: >http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1866 - Release Date: 12/27/2008 8:49 PM

>From: "P.& K.Wingert" <pkwingert@accesscomm.ca> >Subject: Re: [A-L] Village of Johannesviller >To: alsace-lorraine@rootsweb.com >Yes I should have specified that Johannesviller is in Moselle and probably close to Forbach and Farschviller. > Paul Hi Paul, Guy Marchal's Les Communes de Lorraine - <http://gmarchal.free.fr/Repertoire.htm> lists this one: "Johannswiller, Hameau [a hamlet] de Farschviller.-57" It's entirely possible that the original village was close by Farschviller in those days, and now has been "swallowed up" by the expansion of Farschviller. You may, as I have, find that the once-village is now found only as street/s or perhaps a neighborhood in the other village/town. In Burscheid, near Cologne, Germany, the village/dorf "Höhe" where one grand-uncle was born in 1875 can only be found today as "Höhestrasse" Cari Thomas

Yes I should have specified that Johannesviller is in Moselle and probably close to Forbach and Farschviller. Paul At 03:00 PM 12/27/2008, you wrote: >Where did you find the reference? It may help us find info. >Thanks! > >- Giliane >-----Original Message----- >From: alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com >[mailto:alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of P.& K.Wingert >Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 3:02 PM >To: ALSACE-LORRAINE-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [A-L] Village of Johannesviller > >Hi All, > Came across this village name in some records from the early >1700s but can't find it on recent maps. > Has the name changed or the village disappeared over the years? > > Thanks in advance, > > Paul Wingert, Regina SK > >-- >Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: >http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 - Release Date: 12/26/2008 >1:01 PM > >-- >Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: >http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Paul; I saw this information hope it helps. Johannesfeld Village Information: Region: Black Sea Area: Odessa District: Grossliebental/Beresan Rayon: Beresowka Religion: Evangelical Parish: Freudental German Name: Johannesfeld Russian Name: Iwano-Ljubowka Ch. Roemmich www.grhs.org

Where did you find the reference? It may help us find info. Thanks! - Giliane -----Original Message----- From: alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:alsace-lorraine-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of P.& K.Wingert Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 3:02 PM To: ALSACE-LORRAINE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [A-L] Village of Johannesviller Hi All, Came across this village name in some records from the early 1700s but can't find it on recent maps. Has the name changed or the village disappeared over the years? Thanks in advance, Paul Wingert, Regina SK -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 - Release Date: 12/26/2008 1:01 PM

Hi Paul Good to see at research again. I read your letter with great interest. Johannesviller may be the original town that some of the Schwobs came from and may be the town that Johannesfeld in the banat was named after. Personally, I have loads of ancestors that were born and raised in Johannesfeld on my maternal family. I will contact Susan Clarkson who authored the Johannesfeld book and see if she knows if this banat Johannesfeld is one in the same, John Busch --- On Sat, 12/27/08, P.& K.Wingert <pkwingert@accesscomm.ca> wrote: > From: P.& K.Wingert <pkwingert@accesscomm.ca> > Subject: [A-L] Village of Johannesviller > To: ALSACE-LORRAINE-L@rootsweb.com > Date: Saturday, December 27, 2008, 2:01 PM > Hi All, > Came across this village name in some records from > the early > 1700s but can't find it on recent maps. > Has the name changed or the village disappeared > over the years? > > Thanks in advance, > > Paul Wingert, Regina SK > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ALSACE-LORRAINE-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

Hi All, Came across this village name in some records from the early 1700s but can't find it on recent maps. Has the name changed or the village disappeared over the years? Thanks in advance, Paul Wingert, Regina SK

Hello Ralph; Thank you for your input in this matter. I am sure everyone on this website will be interested when they read it. It is very hard when you do not know a foreign language, and you have to try and find out what a phrase or a word means. And I assume the farther you go back in years words have changed or the meanings have. So when something comes up and you need assistance from others there will be allot of different answers to your question. It happens in most other languages not only French. I know that in the Italian language there are different dialects. I can only assume the same goes for the French. So I guess when you want an answer for something, maybe there is a conflict when it comes to the dialects. Again, your input was well worth reading. Happy Holidays Patricia

I've been following this thread with interest. It seems a couple of common problems are illustrated here. One problem is unique to plain-text -- as this mailing list is -- which does not allow special characters. In the list messages, the word is rendered "for?t". It makes quite a difference as to whether the e in "foret" has a carat, ^, over it. If so, it's a French equivalent of the English es and the translation of the word is apparent. Another problem is that the phrase presented for translation may not have been an accurate transcription of the original handwriting. Did the writer write "feret", "foret" or something else? (The letters o & e are often confused.) What was the source of the phrase for which a translation was requested? Was it the original document? A transcription of the document? An online database? A solution to the character-rendering problem is, perhaps, to alert readers that accents & diacritical marks matter. If they cannot be rendered exactly in the medium, they should be described. Or, perhaps, we might develop conventions for such letters, as in "fore^t". The source also matters. We've seen how a question about transcription of one letter has led to wildly-divergent translations. -rt_/)