Sorry Paul, I wrote 1817 instead of 1819. The HIRTZEL I mentioned are on the 1819 census. Of course there was no census every two year. Etienne Le 13 juin 11 à 13:28, [email protected] a écrit : Thanks. Will the 1817 census be online soon? Was there a census every two years? Paul On Dé hAoine, 10 Meitheamh, 2011, at 23:49, Etienne Herrbach wrote: Sorry, I mistyped, Philipp H had 2 sons, in the 1817 census. Etienne Le 11 juin 11 à 08:42, Etienne Herrbach a écrit : Paul, I browsed the 1817 census of Sundhouse and found two HIRTZEL: - no. 204, Christian HIRTZEL, geheÿrath (married), 3 sons, total 5 persons - no. 224, Philipp HIRTZEL, married,1 sons, 1 daughter, total 5 persons In the civil state decennial tables (TD) (*), found 10 births HIRTZEL between 1813 and 1819. (*) http://etat-civil.bas-rhin.fr/adeloch/index.php Etienne Le 10 juin 11 à 21:26, Paul Carr a écrit : Thanks to help from a bunch of folks here, I looked in the census records at http://population.bas-rhin.fr/ellenbach/index.php I looked in the 1819 Sundahausen records for Hirtzels, but found none. I know that they must be there. If anyone stumbles across an entry for Hirtzel in the 1819 Sundahausen census, please do let me know. Thanks. best, Paul Portland, OR

Hi Etienne, Ahhhhh, thanks for the explanation. I had not thought of that, though I have seen the same in census records in the USA. So simple a solution. I really appreciate understanding the reason for that odd set of houses. Here are all of my ancestral villages [so far.] And none of them has the 1819 census; all: En deficit. :-( I¹m pretty sure that most of them were communes on their own; so, I expect the censuses are lost. :-( > Harskirchen > Hatten > Ingwiller > Niederroedern > Rittershoffen > Schopperten > Weiterswiller > Wolfskirchen > Thanks for your response and the help, Etienne. Cari On 6/13/11 8:43 AM, "Etienne Herrbach" <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Cari, > > the solution to the enigma is simple: the entries 48-58 on the first page are > the last entries of the census of Stützheim, as I have verified it in the > latter village. The censuses of various villages have been bound together, in > alphabetical order. > > For what villages did you get "en deficit"? It might be that those villages > were not a commune on their own, or that the censuses are lost. > > Best regards, > Etienne >> >> Cari wrote: >> >> I was interested in Paul¹s query re: Sundhouse, because so far, NONE of my >> Alsatian locations has an 1819 census posted; all show EN DEFICIT. :-( Does >> EN DEFICIT mean the 1819 censuses for my personal ancestral locations are >> lost forever? ...or what, exactly? >> >> Now, I¹m even more interested in what I notice on the 4 images for >> Sundhouse/Sundhausen: >> IMAGE: Side of image: Numbers in order of enumeration >> Image 1: left page: 48-58 >> Image 1: right page: 1-33 >> Image 2: left page: 34-71 >> Image 2: right page: 72-109 >> Image 3: left page: 110-147 >> Image 3: right page: 148-185 >> Image 4: left page: 186-222 >> Image 4: right page: 223-243 >> >> I understand the last 5 of the six pages, enumerating the residents from 1 >> to 143. HOWEVER, what does that left page of image 1 indicate? I can¹t quite >> figure this out, nor can I understand why the numbers go from 48 to 58? These >> 48-58 are not the same families shown as #48-58 on image 2, left page. The >> only difference I see between the pages of image 1: Headings on left page are >> in French and right (and all other images) are in German. >> >> >

Fellow members. I don't enjoy having disagreements at your expense but believe I must answer Brian's comments on my statement "wealthy benefactor idea" that refers to notary records being scanned. My comment was only a passing dream that might resolve the issue in my lifetime. Hopefully it won't cause any hard feelings. I don't know what personal experience Brian has had with the Bas-Rhin Archives but I've been there 2 or 3 times and cannot even conjecture on just what they are capable of doing without financial assistance. The notary records I've seen are not in registers like the vital stat documents. They are original documents and I believe they were located in folders or binders. They must be handled carefully and it is better to have one who is knowledgeable of the language of the records with a helper to keep the pages from rolling up. Thanks to an Alsatian friend I have several ancestral documents that she photographed for me. And how many documents are there? I have 5 ancestral documents - one has 2 pages; another 12 pages; one with 19 pages and two others with 36 & 37 pages. That was just 3 people. How many other documents just for these ancestors exist. What years would be covered, what transactions required a notary, etc.? Documents could be in the hundreds of thousands just for Bas-Rhin. Or perhaps that's an exaggeration - it's just a guesstimate. I believe only the Archivist is in the position to make any calls on just when and how notary records will be scanned & if that's feasible in the foreseeable future. An acquaintance once was the ass't director but he has relocated to greener pastures. Apparently Brian has vast experience on scanning and/or filming documents but he fails to take into consideration that you still need the assets to purchase the equipment, the facilities to house them and staff that can put them into a searchable order that includes the names of those who are signatories to the document & their village; the notary and possibly his village; type of document; item number; date, etc. In one of my 2 Alsatian extraction databases and it depends on the event I am researching I can do an easy search of between 25 & 60 items that have been entered. I have some experience having extracted over 60,000 Latin & French documents; photocopied & digitally photographed thousands of documents from original church & civil registers in Alsace; and digitally photographed perhaps thousands of documents taken from the LDS films at a FHC. It is a strain on the eyes; difficult on the feet and back; can be boring and lends itself to errors if one is not concentrating, and of course the image must be in focus. It really helps if the distractions are kept to a minimum. Just look at some of the Ancestry.com info where people have misread a document entering erroneous info or even the LDS films where some documents are missed or the person doing the microfilming lost track and duplicated or even triplicated his/her efforts or the images are too light or dark. And if possible the equipment, and maybe they have it, should be top of the line. And if they don't have it then as I suggested, a wealthy benefactor would indeed serve the purpose. LDS has fabulous resources that I'm sure the Archives wish they had available. It's not just getting volunteers but even a dedicated volunteer needs to be trained and to some extent supervised. And I wonder how many professional or even amateur genealogists would volunteer many hours when esp. the professional could be giving up actual paid research. And how many of those live in the Colmar or Strasbourg area. I know that there are dedicated genealogists who do extractions in areas of Bas-Rhin but could those Alsatians be persuaded to delay their own work. To me it sounds what Brian suggests is called here in the States "piece work" - one is paid by the number of pieces of a product one completes in a day. He does not take into consideration that volunteers or paid workers are not machines and each should work at a fair pace. That as great as volunteers are they are free to come and go or work when they can. Lots of projects look feasible on paper but often there are obstacles that are encountered when works begins. If Brian feels that he could obtain permission to lead a team to institute said project in the Bas-Rhin or Haut-Rhin Archives I'm sure he would have our blessings. Quote from Brian: 'As a comparison, a small town (500-4000), I've done, contains about 3000 "pages" (ie both leaves) for 150 years of registers (BMD). About 6 days work for me.' See 2nd paragraph from bottom of Brian's comments. I only wish that in 6 days time I could accomplish as much but I do need several breaks along the way and my age & health gets in the way. I guess Brian rested on the 7th day. Sorry Brian but I couldn't let that pass. In fairness to Brian and you I have included his complete remarks & my initial e-mail to Pam. Charlie Homosassa, FL -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 10:08 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [A-L] Census Records - Notary Records First, I've not seen any plans posted on the Haut-Rhin Archives website to do the census records. They haven't even done the Parish Registers yet. On the wealthy benefactor idea. It doesn't take that. A single person could build an apparatus to hold the books gently without damaging them and also to gently hold the pages "flat", and be able to photograph them with a digital camera. This could be done for under $30. Any decent digital camera would work for taking the pictures. With this apparatus, a person could scan 300 pages a day. I've done that much and more. Not sure if they'd let a volunteer do that. Just saying, it could be done cheaply. Now of course for anyone here in the states wanting to volunteer for such a task it would mean a not cheap travel expense, and likely an expense for bringing the apparatus (there are plans for one on the Internet). Although Bas-Rhin might have their own better equipment. I'm surprised almost none of these bodies think to ask for qualified volunteers. They lose out on the whole "commons" idea. The driving force that has turned a single student's personal project into a world-wide phenomenon and a major competitor to Microsoft (ie Linux). I know that someone was at my local genealogy library scanning books. Not sure if he was a volunteer or paid professional. But there are countless amateur and professional genealogists who would likely donate hours to do some scanning. These projects often have one person doing scanning for years, as part of their regular duties. With a few dozen volunteers, such projects could be done in months or even less. Think about it: 1) 24 volunteers 2) 24 cameras 3) 24 scanning platforms 4) 150 pages per seven hour day (being ultra conservative 3+ minutes/page) = 3600 pages/day I generally average about 70-90 pages/hour, or 490-630 pages/day. Using that figure, a realistic goal for 24 volunteers in a day is 10000. How many pages in a notary per town on average x 600 towns? Say 100? If my figure is close 600x100 = 6000 pages or about half a day for 24 volunteers. Even at a 1000 pages that's 5 days. For an employee of Bas-Rhin/Haut-Rhin that's probably 2 hours a days for a whole year. As a comparison, a small town (500-4000), I've done, contains about 3000 "pages" (ie both leaves) for 150 years of registers (BMD). About 6 days work for me. This is how the FHL is able to digitize all these millions of records. Think how much more time-consuming it is to transcribe than it is to turn a page and take 1 or 2 pictures. On Sun, June 12, 2011 10:30 am, Charlie Sheridan wrote: > Hi Pam, > > If no one on the list knows, then my suggestion would be to write to the > Archivist at the Haut-Rhin Archives and ask that question. See below. > > http://www.archives.cg68.fr/Informations_Contact.aspx > > > I had a minor problem with missing census pages for a Bas-Rhin village, > e-mailed the Archivist and within a couple of days received a response > that > it would be corrected in July. > > And for those, as I am, interested in Bas-Rhin notary records the response > was that they are understaffed and lack finances to scan those documents. > And so there are no plans to include them in the foreseeable future. > We need a wealthy benefactor to help finance this project. > > Charlie > Homosassa, FL

First, I've not seen any plans posted on the Haut-Rhin Archives website to do the census records. They haven't even done the Parish Registers yet. On the wealthy benefactor idea. It doesn't take that. A single person could build an apparatus to hold the books gently without damaging them and also to gently hold the pages "flat", and be able to photograph them with a digital camera. This could be done for under $30. Any decent digital camera would work for taking the pictures. With this apparatus, a person could scan 300 pages a day. I've done that much and more. Not sure if they'd let a volunteer do that. Just saying, it could be done cheaply. Now of course for anyone here in the states wanting to volunteer for such a task it would mean a not cheap travel expense, and likely an expense for bringing the apparatus (there are plans for one on the Internet). Although Bas-Rhin might have their own better equipment. I'm surprised almost none of these bodies think to ask for qualified volunteers. They lose out on the whole "commons" idea. The driving force that has turned a single student's personal project into a world-wide phenomenon and a major competitor to Microsoft (ie Linux). I know that someone was at my local genealogy library scanning books. Not sure if he was a volunteer or paid professional. But there are countless amateur and professional genealogists who would likely donate hours to do some scanning. These projects often have one person doing scanning for years, as part of their regular duties. With a few dozen volunteers, such projects could be done in months or even less. Think about it: 1) 24 volunteers 2) 24 cameras 3) 24 scanning platforms 4) 150 pages per seven hour day (being ultra conservative 3+ minutes/page) = 3600 pages/day I generally average about 70-90 pages/hour, or 490-630 pages/day. Using that figure, a realistic goal for 24 volunteers in a day is 10000. How many pages in a notary per town on average x 600 towns? Say 100? If my figure is close 600x100 = 6000 pages or about half a day for 24 volunteers. Even at a 1000 pages that's 5 days. For an employee of Bas-Rhin/Haut-Rhin that's probably 2 hours a days for a whole year. As a comparison, a small town (500-4000), I've done, contains about 3000 "pages" (ie both leaves) for 150 years of registers (BMD). About 6 days work for me. This is how the FHL is able to digitize all these millions of records. Think how much more time-consuming it is to transcribe than it is to turn a page and take 1 or 2 pictures. Brian On Sun, June 12, 2011 10:30 am, Charlie Sheridan wrote: > Hi Pam, > > If no one on the list knows, then my suggestion would be to write to the > Archivist at the Haut-Rhin Archives and ask that question. See below. > > http://www.archives.cg68.fr/Informations_Contact.aspx > > > I had a minor problem with missing census pages for a Bas-Rhin village, > e-mailed the Archivist and within a couple of days received a response > that > it would be corrected in July. > > And for those, as I am, interested in Bas-Rhin notary records the response > was that they are understaffed and lack finances to scan those documents. > And so there are no plans to include them in the foreseeable future. > We need a wealthy benefactor to help finance this project. > > Charlie > Homosassa, FL > > > > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Thanks. Will the 1817 census be online soon? Was there a census every two years? Paul On Dé hAoine, 10 Meitheamh, 2011, at 23:49, Etienne Herrbach wrote: > Sorry, I mistyped, Philipp H had 2 sons, in the 1817 census. > > Etienne > > > > Le 11 juin 11 à 08:42, Etienne Herrbach a écrit : > >> Paul, >> >> I browsed the 1817 census of Sundhouse and found two HIRTZEL: >> >> - no. 204, Christian HIRTZEL, geheÿrath (married), 3 sons, total 5 >> persons >> - no. 224, Philipp HIRTZEL, married,1 sons, 1 daughter, total 5 >> persons >> >> In the civil state decennial tables (TD) (*), found 10 births HIRTZEL >> between 1813 and 1819. >> >> (*) http://etat-civil.bas-rhin.fr/adeloch/index.php >> >> Etienne >> >> >> >> Le 10 juin 11 à 21:26, Paul Carr a écrit : >> >>> Thanks to help from a bunch of folks here, I looked in the census >>> records at >>> >>> http://population.bas-rhin.fr/ellenbach/index.php >>> >>> I looked in the 1819 Sundahausen records for Hirtzels, but found >>> none. >>> >>> I know that they must be there. >>> >>> If anyone stumbles across an entry for Hirtzel in the 1819 >>> Sundahausen census, please do let me know. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> best, >>> Paul >>> Portland, OR > > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Steve, The conditions to use the records are here: http://archives.bas-rhin.fr/scripts/04legales/04d_reutilisation.asp For a publication on internet, a license (usually free) is required. Royalties only if commercial purposes. << Pour tout autre usage, et notamment la diffusion publique d'images sur internet, le Département subordonne son accord à la souscription de la licence adaptée. Signée des deux parties, la licence définit les conditions d'utilisation des images numériques, qu'elles soient réalisées par le Département, par l'usager ou un tiers. Dans la très grande majorité des cas, cette licence est gratuite : seule la diffusion publique d'images dans un but commercial est soumise à redevance.>> Ewald -------------------------------------------------- From: "Stephan Wall" <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 10:54 PM To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Subject: [A-L] Bas-Rhin records? > Hello fellow listers, > > I was wondering if anyone has any experience with the Bas-Rhin > department's > rules regarding the usage of their records. I have about 150 birth, > marriage and > death records that I would love to post onto my Ancestry Account. I have > not > done so due to fears of copyright infringement. Does anyone have any > experience > regarding this issue? Has anyone posted records to Ancestry or any other > site? > > > Thank you very much > Steve > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am searching the marriage contract of Johann Georg MARTZOLFF, baker in Oberbetschdorf, to Maria Dorothea BERGMANN, widow of Daniel WERNER, burgher of Birlenbach. It should be in the Wissembourg notary records, but I lost the source. Where can I find the documents or can someone give me the content. Best regards Gerhard Marzolph ----- eMail ist virenfrei. Von AVG überprüft - www.avg.de Version: 10.0.1382 / Virendatenbank: 1513/3696 - Ausgabedatum: 11.06.2011

Hello fellow listers, I was wondering if anyone has any experience with the Bas-Rhin department's rules regarding the usage of their records. I have about 150 birth, marriage and death records that I would love to post onto my Ancestry Account. I have not done so due to fears of copyright infringement. Does anyone have any experience regarding this issue? Has anyone posted records to Ancestry or any other site? Thank you very much Steve

Hi Pam, If no one on the list knows, then my suggestion would be to write to the Archivist at the Haut-Rhin Archives and ask that question. See below. http://www.archives.cg68.fr/Informations_Contact.aspx I had a minor problem with missing census pages for a Bas-Rhin village, e-mailed the Archivist and within a couple of days received a response that it would be corrected in July. And for those, as I am, interested in Bas-Rhin notary records the response was that they are understaffed and lack finances to scan those documents. And so there are no plans to include them in the foreseeable future. We need a wealthy benefactor to help finance this project. Charlie Homosassa, FL

Does anyone know when the Haut-Rhin census records will be online? I am looking for Julliard and Ettlin in Ostheim and Sundhoffen. Pam

I am searching the marriage contract as of 1736 of Johann Georg MARTZOLFF, baker in Oberbetschdorf, to Maria Dorothea BERGMANN, widow of Daniel WERNER, burgher of Birlenbach. It should be in the Wissembourg notary records, but I lost the source. Where can I find the documents or can someone give me the content. Best regards Gerhard Marzolph

>From: Paul Carr <[email protected]> >Subject: [A-L] 1819 census >Thanks to help from a bunch of folks here, I looked in the census records at >http://population.bas-rhin.fr/ellenbach/index.php >I looked in the 1819 Sundahausen records for Hirtzels, but found none. I know that they must be there. >If anyone stumbles across an entry for Hirtzel in the 1819 Sundahausen census, please do let me know. >Thanks. >Paul Portland, OR Hi Paul, Etienne and other listers, I was interested in Paul¹s query re: Sundhouse, because so far, NONE of my Alsatian locations has an 1819 census posted; all show EN DEFICIT. :-( Now, I¹m even more interested in what I notice on the 4 images for Sundhouse/Sundhausen: IMAGE: Side of image: Numbers in order of enumeration Image 1: left page: 48-58 Image 1: right page: 1-33 Image 2: left page: 34-71 Image 2: right page: 72-109 Image 3: left page: 110-147 Image 3: right page: 148-185 Image 4: left page: 186-222 Image 4: right page: 223-243 I understand the last 5 of the six pages, enumerating the residents from 1 to 143. HOWEVER, what does that left page of image 1 indicate? I can¹t quite figure this out, nor can I understand why the numbers go from 48 to 58? These 48-58 are not the same families shown as #48-58 on image 2, left page. The only difference I see between the pages of image 1: Headings on left page are in French and right (and all other images) are in German. Any enlightenment? Cari Thomas Oh, yes, does EN DEFICIT mean the 1819 censuses for my personal ancestral locations are lost forever? ...or what, exactly?

Sorry, I mistyped, Philipp H had 2 sons, in the 1817 census. Etienne Le 11 juin 11 à 08:42, Etienne Herrbach a écrit : > Paul, > > I browsed the 1817 census of Sundhouse and found two HIRTZEL: > > - no. 204, Christian HIRTZEL, geheÿrath (married), 3 sons, total 5 > persons > - no. 224, Philipp HIRTZEL, married,1 sons, 1 daughter, total 5 > persons > > In the civil state decennial tables (TD) (*), found 10 births HIRTZEL > between 1813 and 1819. > > (*) http://etat-civil.bas-rhin.fr/adeloch/index.php > > Etienne > > > > Le 10 juin 11 à 21:26, Paul Carr a écrit : > >> Thanks to help from a bunch of folks here, I looked in the census >> records at >> >> http://population.bas-rhin.fr/ellenbach/index.php >> >> I looked in the 1819 Sundahausen records for Hirtzels, but found >> none. >> >> I know that they must be there. >> >> If anyone stumbles across an entry for Hirtzel in the 1819 >> Sundahausen census, please do let me know. >> >> Thanks. >> >> best, >> Paul >> Portland, OR

Paul, I browsed the 1817 census of Sundhouse and found two HIRTZEL: - no. 204, Christian HIRTZEL, geheÿrath (married), 3 sons, total 5 persons - no. 224, Philipp HIRTZEL, married,1 sons, 1 daughter, total 5 persons In the civil state decennial tables (TD) (*), found 10 births HIRTZEL between 1813 and 1819. (*) http://etat-civil.bas-rhin.fr/adeloch/index.php Etienne Le 10 juin 11 à 21:26, Paul Carr a écrit : > Thanks to help from a bunch of folks here, I looked in the census > records at > > http://population.bas-rhin.fr/ellenbach/index.php > > I looked in the 1819 Sundahausen records for Hirtzels, but found none. > > I know that they must be there. > > If anyone stumbles across an entry for Hirtzel in the 1819 > Sundahausen census, please do let me know. > > Thanks. > > best, > Paul > Portland, OR

David, your post is very interesting. I agree with the Mersch/Mörsch explanation. A few additions/corrections: - Gottfried is indeed Geoffroy in French, another form is Godefroy. - Lorentz = Laurent in French - Othile and Adele are distinct names. Adele (German) = Adèle (French) = a short form of Adelheid / Adélaïde. Othilia = Odile in French. BTW the Mont Sainte Odile is a famous and beautiful place in Alsace. See: http://www.mont-sainte-odile.com/ http://www.juste-pour-voir.net/20100413MSO/ A nice Pentecost weekend to all listers, Etienne Le 10 juin 11 à 18:49, David Fetherston a écrit : > Andy, > > there is a decent possibility that the surnames are the same. I > am researching Stoskopf (French form) and Stosskopf(f) (the more > German form). Often you will see two dots (an umlaut) over a, o, u, > which means basically ae, oe, and ue. So you might see names like > Muller (with umlaut over the u) or Mueller. The vowel with umlaut > are pronounce more like e. > > The same may be the case for Mersch, it could be that there was the > umalaut over the o and then it when translated they dropped the o. > Moersch sounds kind of like Mersch but I wouldn't be surprised if > the records were in Alsace to see > the signatures show the umlauted o instead of an e. This has > happened with some other names I've seen an ae name change but can't > recall it right now. > > Note: French and German records for the same person may spell their > names differently and the person may not sign the way the record > reads. > > Some forname examples: German French (most are obvious) > > Johannes Jean > Peter Pierre > Gottlfried Geoffroi (This one was especially hard for > me to sort out) > > Jacob Jacques > Karl Charles > > Magdalena Madeleine or Madelaine > > Many examples where ending a changes to e. Maria to Marie, Eva, > Catharina, etc. > > Michael Michel > Georg Georges > Barbe Barbara > Margaretha Marguerite > Heinrich Henri > Friedrich Frederic > Lorentz Lawrence > Moritz Maurice > Phillip Philippe > Othile Adele > > Etc. I think many here could add tough one that may have stumped > them at some point. > There are many more and various forms, but these are off the top of > my head. The Gottfried/Geofroi threw me for a loop for quite awhile > until I noticed that the two individuals in my tree looked very > similar in location and mothers maiden name. > > The same goes for town names. But this is generally not as hard to > figure out. Kirrweiller = Kirrwiller, Elsass = Alsace, Wasselnheim = > Wasselonne etc. > > Good luck connecting the families. I'd be curious to see if you have > the umlaut over the older records or not. > > Regards, > Dave > > > > "I have traced my ancestory back to the mid 1700's in Germany > (Mittelreidenbach area - Pfalz) and there seems to be a connection > to Lorraine. Could these surnames be the same? - Morsch / Mersch in > French and Morscher / Merscher in German? The French names come from > Creutzwald. From what I see in Family books, these names appear to > be the same."

Does anyone have any information on Johann (Jean) Georg Escher born 1765? He became Mayor Of Baldenheim, and was a linen-weaver, I am told. I have his birth record. He supposedly died in Brumath. I am interested in finding any information on him when was a mayor. Thanks. best, Paul

Thanks to help from a bunch of folks here, I looked in the census records at http://population.bas-rhin.fr/ellenbach/index.php I looked in the 1819 Sundahausen records for Hirtzels, but found none. I know that they must be there. If anyone stumbles across an entry for Hirtzel in the 1819 Sundahausen census, please do let me know. Thanks. best, Paul Portland, OR

Andy,     there is a decent possibility that the surnames are the same. I am researching Stoskopf (French form) and Stosskopf(f) (the more German form). Often you will see two dots (an umlaut) over a, o, u, which means basically ae, oe, and ue. So you might see names like Muller (with umlaut over the u) or Mueller. The vowel with umlaut are pronounce more like e. The same may be the case for Mersch, it could be that there was the umalaut over the o and then it when translated they dropped the o. Moersch sounds kind of like Mersch but I wouldn't be surprised if the records were in Alsace to see the signatures show the umlauted o instead of an e. This has happened with some other names I've seen an ae name change but can't recall it right now. Note: French and German records for the same person may spell their names differently and the person may not sign the way the record reads. Some forname examples: German     French (most are obvious) Johannes           Jean Peter                 Pierre Gottlfried            Geoffroi   (This one was especially hard for me to sort out) Jacob                Jacques  Karl                    Charles Magdalena      Madeleine or Madelaine Many examples where ending a changes to e. Maria to Marie, Eva, Catharina, etc. Michael             Michel Georg                Georges Barbe                Barbara Margaretha      Marguerite Heinrich           Henri Friedrich          Frederic Lorentz           Lawrence Moritz             Maurice Phillip             Philippe Othile              Adele Etc. I think many here could add tough one that may have stumped them at some point. There are many more and various forms, but these are off the top of my head. The Gottfried/Geofroi threw me for a loop for quite awhile until I noticed that the two individuals in my tree looked very similar in location and mothers maiden name. The same goes for town names. But this is generally not as hard to figure out. Kirrweiller = Kirrwiller, Elsass = Alsace, Wasselnheim = Wasselonne etc. Good luck connecting the families. I'd be curious to see if you have the umlaut over the older records or not. Regards, Dave "I have traced my ancestory back to the mid 1700's in Germany (Mittelreidenbach area - Pfalz) and there seems to be a connection to Lorraine. Could these surnames be the same? -  Morsch / Mersch in French and Morscher / Merscher in German? The French names come from Creutzwald. From what I see in Family books, these names appear to be the same."

I have traced my ancestory back to the mid 1700's in Germany (Mittelreidenbach area - Pfalz) and there seems to be a connection to Lorraine. Could these surnames be the same? - Morsch / Mersch in French and Morscher / Merscher in German? The French names come from Creutzwald. From what I see in Family books, these names appear to be the same. thankx Andy Tereshyn 276 Pacific Ave., Toronto, Ontario, Canada M6P 2P9 SKYPE: tereshyn 647-522-0095 416-767-0095 416-327-9507

Thank you all for your emails. I used http://etat-civil.bas-rhin.fr/adeloch/adeloch_flash/adeloch_flash.php, and in an hour already found two records that I hoped for in the 1788 role. I made copies by printing to a PDF. This is wonderful. I will look for more later. I have a German transcriber who has done some old Bavarian records for me. I will contact her again about these. I can speak German. I can make out names and some dates and key terms, but I cannot translate the whole document because I cannot read the old script. best, Paul On Dé Céadaoin, 8 Meitheamh, 2011, at 18:06, Stephan Wall wrote: > Hello Paul > > If the records you seek were prior to 1900 why not try and go it alone. All of > the records are online. For northern Alsace known as Bas-Rhin the records can be > accesses at http://etat-civil.bas-rhin.fr/adeloch/index.php And for southern > Alsace or Haut-Rhin http://www.archives.cg68.fr/Services_Actes_Civils.aspx . You > will need to know the Commune(town) and learn some basic terms. If you enjoy > learning about your past it can be quite rewarding. > > > Good Luck > Steve > > > > ________________________________ > From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Sent: Wed, June 8, 2011 5:00:02 PM > Subject: [A-L] Research > > I have some birth documents from around 1850 for my relatives from the alsace > (thanks to a relative) , but now I would to go back further in time on my own. > > > Can folks recommend a place to find a researcher who lives in the Alsace? > > Thanks. > > Paul > Portland Oregon > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message