Sharon, The way I understand it, the Burgermeister was both a citizen and the mayor. I am sure that Etienne will correct me if I am mistaken!! :) Linda in Costa Rica Monroe County, New York Genealogy http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monroenys Monroe County, New York History http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monroenys -----Original Message----- From: Sharon Waechter Sent: Friday, 01 July, 2011 1:12 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [A-L] Married Burgers? Etienne, Does this mean that a Burgermeister is not the same as "Mayor," but is instead the head of a group of burgers? Sharon Sharon A Waechter, M.A./RPA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Etienne Herrbach" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, July 1, 2011 10:04:13 AM Subject: Re: [A-L] Married Burgers? Hello Pat and listers, civium et conjugum = literally, burgers and a couple Before the French Revolution, there were two kinds of inhabitants of a community: the "bourgeois" (Bürger, civis) and the "manants" (Hintersäß, incola). (The vagabonds (vagabundus) were still another category). The bourgeois had more rights than a manant, such as participating to a corporation, etc. (but I'm not much aware to this topic). If I remember well, he had to pay a fee prior to be admitted into the "bourgeoisie". Some towns possess old registers called "admission à la bourgeoisie" (Bürgerbuch), that existed sometimes long before the onset of parish registers. The Revolution abolished these differences. Every inhabitant bacame then a "citoyen" (citizen). Etienne

Re: "What would an morbo nigro mean in a 1792 death record? The Black Death? I cannot find even one reference to it on google" Can't resist jumping in on this; "an morbo nigro" sounds to me like Latin for a black death. Any Latin students here? If it is a Latin phrase, that would account for the absence of Google hits. Almost no one writes Web pages in Latin. I've looked more closely at the impact in England of the "Great Pestilence", as it was called when it struck much of Europe in the mid-14th century. However, it seems to have had roughly similar effects wherever it hit. It's also called "Black Death", "Black Plague", "Bubonic Plague" and simply "Plague". It did recur several times until fading into the background in the 18th century. The death rate was enormous, especially in the first wave; in some regions as much as 50% of the population; some villages were completely wiped out. The overall estimate is about one-third of the whole population. Today, the disease is 50% fatal if not treated and, of course, there was no effective treatment then. The impact on society was severe. Imagine seeing your relatives and neighbors apparently healthy one day and dead the next. In this deeply-religious culture, what was scarier even than death was death without opportunity for salvation. A Welsh poet described it as "Death coming like black smoke..."; he died of Plague in the Spring of 1349. Workers, being poor and ill-nourished, died at a faster rate than others -- creating labor shortages and then increases in wages and mobility. In England, I speculate, the turmoil led to the adoption of surnames by commoners (who hadn't had them before). Priests also died at a very high rate; some think the decimation of the priestly ranks led eventually to the Reformation. In France, some believed that the Plague was God's curse and this led to extreme cults. There is only a little scientific disagreement that the infectious agent was Yersenia Pestis (some say anthrax) but the symptoms of the present bug are the same as reported then. Most disease experts believe Y. Pestis (mostly carried by fleas on rodents) to have been the culprit. An even more deadly form (pneumonic plague) could be acquired by breathing in the droplets expelled by a victim's coughing. (This is one reason priests were more at risk.) -rt_/)

>From where did you get this information you posted? Please provide sources especially if this is taken from somewhere and not in your own words! Linda in Costa Rica Monroe County, New York Genealogy http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monroenys Monroe County, New York History http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monroenys -----Original Message----- From: Aida Kraus Sent: Friday, 01 July, 2011 7:56 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [A-L] Married Burgers? When two people married whose parents were burghers of a town, they were also of Burgher Status. Here is a look into the social stratas of a town and the legal aspect of it which sheds light on your "female burgher" status as well. Submitted by Aida Kraus The citizens who lived in the towns made a living either from trade or from craft. A person who wanted to go into business as a merchant or a craftsman had to ask for permission. If there was a demand for his wares or his craft, he could set up business. He had to have a home in town and he had to have two men testify that he was a reliable man. After becoming a citizen of the town, he could set up business. As a citizen, he could be elected a member of the Council, thereby gaining the right to have his say at the Council meetings. He also had to do his duty as a night-watch and fire-guard. The citizen also had an obligation to take part in the defence of the town. Sometimes a woman could become a citizen, for example if her husband died and she was able to take over his business. However, most people in town were not citizens, or burghers. The apprentices, servants, housekeepers, priests, jesters and many others who lived and worked in town, had none of these rights and duties. Read more about the town under "Town Life" On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 6:56 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > A burgher was a citizen of the town. There were requirements, and perhaps > fees, for that status. You had to petition the town to get it. Or at least > up to a certain time. It may have become simply a title for any > resident/native at some point in time. Can't say, as I haven't really > delved into the topic much. A burgher had certain rights that a vagabond > or other resident would not, and were in a different class than the > ordinary peasant. At least in certain times. > > > So married burgers would likely have been a legally married couple, whom > the husband (and perhaps wife) were citizens of the town. > > I have at least one ancestor who was a female burger. The only one, I've > so far seen, listed as a burger in her own right. > > It would be "civis" in Latin documents. > Probably "citoyen" in French, but can't say as I've seen this in the > French records. > > Brian > > > On Fri, July 1, 2011 8:13 am, pat1030 wrote: > > One quick question - what does "married burgers" mean? > >

Etienne, Does this mean that a Burgermeister is not the same as "Mayor," but is instead the head of a group of burgers? Sharon Sharon A Waechter, M.A./RPA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Etienne Herrbach" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, July 1, 2011 10:04:13 AM Subject: Re: [A-L] Married Burgers? Hello Pat and listers, civium et conjugum = literally, burgers and a couple Before the French Revolution, there were two kinds of inhabitants of a community: the "bourgeois" (Bürger, civis) and the "manants" (Hintersäß, incola). (The vagabonds (vagabundus) were still another category). The bourgeois had more rights than a manant, such as participating to a corporation, etc. (but I'm not much aware to this topic). If I remember well, he had to pay a fee prior to be admitted into the "bourgeoisie". Some towns possess old registers called "admission à la bourgeoisie" (Bürgerbuch), that existed sometimes long before the onset of parish registers. The Revolution abolished these differences. Every inhabitant bacame then a "citoyen" (citizen). Etienne Le 1 juil. 11 à 15:13, pat1030 a écrit : > One quick question - what does "married burgers" mean? > > > > -----Original Message----- > Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 1:43 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [A-L] Help Reading Marriage Record Please? > > Hi Pat, > > here the transcription and an explanation of the record. > (...) > Jacobus JUNG miles invalidus, filius defunctorum Michaelis JUNG et > Christinae GRIEGERin civium et conjugum in vita commorantium in > Dauendorff, > et Catharina LOCHER vidua Joannis JEROME civis in vita in Ebrach > commorantis, > Approximate translation: > (...) > Jacob (Jacques) JUNG, invalid soldier, son of the deceased Michael > JUNG and > (deceased) Christina GRIEGER (or GRIEG), married burgers of Dauendorf > Catharina LOCHER, widow of Joannes (Jean) JEROME burger of Ebrach -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

"In Dienste" implies a contractual time to do work for someone .... in other words he hires himself out to another to do work for which he is compensated. You can also be in a Militärdienst, military service, or you can be under a contract to a company or an individual. This is NOT to pay off a tithe with robot or pay for taxes, this is a "job".... He may not have been paid in cash, but may have been compensated with shelter, perhaps clothing, certainly with victuals, often partial use of land, and perhaps SOME coinage on certain "holy days" when the farm help was paid. All this was pretty much the same where ever German speaking people lived! Aida On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:46 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > I appreciate so much the help that I received this morning. > > I hired someone to transcribe a bunch of records, but I am translating them > myself. > > As you can see, sometimes I hit a roadblock. > > Here is another roadblock: > > hier im Dienste stehenden Bauernknechte, Jakob Meier, > > Does this mean: > here in service (under obligation?) farmer's helper, Jakob Meier, ? > > Thanks. > > best, > Paul > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

No Etienne, there are farmers who OWN the estate and provide services to the Prince! Aida On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 9:48 AM, Etienne Herrbach < [email protected]> wrote: > Fürstl(icher) Meyer = farmer administrating a farm belonging to a > lord, here a Fürst = prince. > > Why make things complicated when they are simple? > > Etienne > > > > > > Le 1 juil. 11 à 16:44, [email protected] a écrit : > > > I should have researched before answering that question. > > > > A Meier was a "free farmer". An owner of land or collector of land > > rents > > with serfs attached. So the term "Fürstl. Meiers", should really > > translate > > as "Princely Free Farmer". I would tend to think of this as being a > > much > > larger estate, or something more than a Meier. The term applying to > > the > > person and not the land as I was assuming. > > > > But, the French system seems to be different from the German system. > > They > > apparently had actual landowners, who owned the land outright and not > > owing any duties to the King (mostly). So, I'm not sure how to move > > this > > German term to the French system. > > > > Aida, you seem to have some knowledge on the subject. Would you > > expand on > > it some? > > > > Brian > > > > On Fri, July 1, 2011 8:37 am, Aida Kraus wrote: > >> A princely farmer is a "free farmer"....meaning that they were no > >> serfs. > >> These free farmers were free of taxes and sometimes military duty, > >> because > >> they usually were instrumental in watching borders between estates or > >> States. There are different laws in all areas, meaning it was > >> different > >> in > >> Bohemia versus Bavaria, or Baden and Hessen and changed with the > >> potentates. > >> I.e. if these border dwellers were for instance under Austria > >> Hungarian > >> Regime, the Imperium, or France. > >> Aida > >> > >> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 6:38 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >>> More likely it is identifying: a prince's estate "princely > >>> estate", the > >>> name of a military regiment, or an actual prince. The first one > >>> indicating > >>> a serfdom situation, and the most likely candidate for an answer > >>> to your > >>> question. > >>> > >>> Brian > >>> > >>> On Fri, July 1, 2011 7:47 am, [email protected] wrote: > >>>> Would "Fürstl. Meiers" mean "Princely Farmer" , from a 1783 record? > >>>> > >>>> Thanks. > > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Heidolsheim, 7km SSW of Baldenheim. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Fri, Jul 1, 2011 8:59 am Subject: [A-L] Heidolzh A Baldenheim marriage record notes that the bride's dad is from "Heidolzh". Does anyone have any suggestions as to where this might be? A separate family note says he was born in Canton Bern, Stafelbach. Paul -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I appreciate so much the help that I received this morning. I hired someone to transcribe a bunch of records, but I am translating them myself. As you can see, sometimes I hit a roadblock. Here is another roadblock: hier im Dienste stehenden Bauernknechte, Jakob Meier, Does this mean: here in service (under obligation?) farmer's helper, Jakob Meier, ? Thanks. best, Paul

I should have researched before answering that question. A Meier was a "free farmer". An owner of land or collector of land rents with serfs attached. So the term "Fürstl. Meiers", should really translate as "Princely Free Farmer". I would tend to think of this as being a much larger estate, or something more than a Meier. The term applying to the person and not the land as I was assuming. But, the French system seems to be different from the German system. They apparently had actual landowners, who owned the land outright and not owing any duties to the King (mostly). So, I'm not sure how to move this German term to the French system. Aida, you seem to have some knowledge on the subject. Would you expand on it some? Brian On Fri, July 1, 2011 8:37 am, Aida Kraus wrote: > A princely farmer is a "free farmer"....meaning that they were no serfs. > These free farmers were free of taxes and sometimes military duty, > because > they usually were instrumental in watching borders between estates or > States. There are different laws in all areas, meaning it was different > in > Bohemia versus Bavaria, or Baden and Hessen and changed with the > potentates. > I.e. if these border dwellers were for instance under Austria Hungarian > Regime, the Imperium, or France. > Aida > > On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 6:38 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> More likely it is identifying: a prince's estate "princely estate", the >> name of a military regiment, or an actual prince. The first one >> indicating >> a serfdom situation, and the most likely candidate for an answer to your >> question. >> >> Brian >> >> On Fri, July 1, 2011 7:47 am, [email protected] wrote: >> > Would "Fürstl. Meiers" mean "Princely Farmer" , from a 1783 record? >> > >> > Thanks. >> > >> >> >> -- >> Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

One quick question - what does "married burgers" mean? -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Etienne Herrbach Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 1:43 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [A-L] Help Reading Marriage Record Please? Hi Pat, here the transcription and an explanation of the record. Jacobus JUNG et Cath. LOCHER AD 1765, 12 Martii una proclamatione /: super aliis duobus faciendis Reverendissimus Ordinarius Argentinensis die 7 Martii eiusdem anni currentis uti et super clauso tempore quadragesimali dispensavit, prout nobis constitit ex litteris testimonialibus et in aedibus parochialibus permanentibus :/ publice in Ecclesia nortsa (= nostra?) annexa Ebrach facta, ac eodem in Ecclesia parochiali in Dauendorff prout nobis per litteras testimoniales a R(everen)do Domino Petro ROUSSET supradictae Ecclesiae parocho die 12 Martii eiusdem anni datas ac in aedibus parochialibus permanentes constabat :/ ac nullo detecto impedimento praevieque recepto mutuo consensu in facie Ecclesiae a me infrascripto vicario sacro Matrimonii vinculo conjuncti fuerunt. Jacobus JUNG miles invalidus, filius defunctorum Michaelis JUNG et Christinae GRIEGERin civium et conjugum in vita commorantium in Dauendorff, et Catharina LOCHER vidua Joannis JEROME civis in vita in Ebrach commorantis, adfuerunt testes Jacobus LOCHER civis et agricola in Nidermoderen, Josephus BOOSS civis et agricola in Nidermoderen, Jacobus DENU praetor huias, Ciriacus ELMRICH civis et agricola in Dauendorff, qui omnes una mecum subscripserunt, excepta sponsa quia se nescire scribere declarans signum suum apposuit. Jacob Jung (German) sponsus signum + sponsae Catharina Locher Jacob Locher (German) Joseph Booß (German) Jacque Denu prevot (French) Cirias elmrich (German) Joannes Schaal vicarius in Bitschoffen et annexis Approximate translation: 12 March 1765 one bann [ Rev. Ordinary (a kind of ecclesiatic judge) of Strasbourg (= Argentina) gave a dispense for the marriage during Lent (quadragesima *), as shown by letters in my hands ] in the church of our annex Ebrach (= Uberach), as well as in the parish church in Dauendorf on 12 March (as shown by a letter dated 12 March send by Rev. Peter ROUSSET, parish priest of there) no impeachement was raised having received their mutual consent, by me undersigned vicar, were united within the link of sacred marriage: Jacob (Jacques) JUNG, invalid soldier, son of the deceased Michael JUNG and (deceased) Christina GRIEGER (or GRIEG), married burgers of Dauendorf Catharina LOCHER, widow of Joannes (Jean) JEROME burger of Ebrach whitnesses: Jacob LOCHER burger and farmer of Niedermodern, Joseph BOOS burger and farmer of Niedermodern, Jacob (Jacques) DENU "prevot" (= mayor) of here, Cyriaque ELMRICH burger and farmer of Dauendorf all signed with me, except the bride who declared to be illitterate and apposed her sign Dauendorf, Niedermodern and Bitschhoffen are near Uberach. * To get married during Lent (Quadragesima, Carême in French), Catholic people needed a dispense from the bishop office. Etienne Le 29 juin 11 à 22:15, pat1030 a écrit : > Would someone take a look at this marriage record? Is it saying > something about a dispensation? > > Location: http://archives.bas-rhin.fr) Uberach, M, 1737-1787, 3 E > 496/3 - > Image 39 > > Jacques Jung and Catherine Locher 20 Mar 1765 > > Thank you! > > Pat -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Wow as usual you've outdone yourself Etienne - thank you so much!! -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Etienne Herrbach Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 1:43 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [A-L] Help Reading Marriage Record Please? Hi Pat, here the transcription and an explanation of the record. Jacobus JUNG et Cath. LOCHER AD 1765, 12 Martii una proclamatione /: super aliis duobus faciendis Reverendissimus Ordinarius Argentinensis die 7 Martii eiusdem anni currentis uti et super clauso tempore quadragesimali dispensavit, prout nobis constitit ex litteris testimonialibus et in aedibus parochialibus permanentibus :/ publice in Ecclesia nortsa (= nostra?) annexa Ebrach facta, ac eodem in Ecclesia parochiali in Dauendorff prout nobis per litteras testimoniales a R(everen)do Domino Petro ROUSSET supradictae Ecclesiae parocho die 12 Martii eiusdem anni datas ac in aedibus parochialibus permanentes constabat :/ ac nullo detecto impedimento praevieque recepto mutuo consensu in facie Ecclesiae a me infrascripto vicario sacro Matrimonii vinculo conjuncti fuerunt. Jacobus JUNG miles invalidus, filius defunctorum Michaelis JUNG et Christinae GRIEGERin civium et conjugum in vita commorantium in Dauendorff, et Catharina LOCHER vidua Joannis JEROME civis in vita in Ebrach commorantis, adfuerunt testes Jacobus LOCHER civis et agricola in Nidermoderen, Josephus BOOSS civis et agricola in Nidermoderen, Jacobus DENU praetor huias, Ciriacus ELMRICH civis et agricola in Dauendorff, qui omnes una mecum subscripserunt, excepta sponsa quia se nescire scribere declarans signum suum apposuit. Jacob Jung (German) sponsus signum + sponsae Catharina Locher Jacob Locher (German) Joseph Booß (German) Jacque Denu prevot (French) Cirias elmrich (German) Joannes Schaal vicarius in Bitschoffen et annexis Approximate translation: 12 March 1765 one bann [ Rev. Ordinary (a kind of ecclesiatic judge) of Strasbourg (= Argentina) gave a dispense for the marriage during Lent (quadragesima *), as shown by letters in my hands ] in the church of our annex Ebrach (= Uberach), as well as in the parish church in Dauendorf on 12 March (as shown by a letter dated 12 March send by Rev. Peter ROUSSET, parish priest of there) no impeachement was raised having received their mutual consent, by me undersigned vicar, were united within the link of sacred marriage: Jacob (Jacques) JUNG, invalid soldier, son of the deceased Michael JUNG and (deceased) Christina GRIEGER (or GRIEG), married burgers of Dauendorf Catharina LOCHER, widow of Joannes (Jean) JEROME burger of Ebrach whitnesses: Jacob LOCHER burger and farmer of Niedermodern, Joseph BOOS burger and farmer of Niedermodern, Jacob (Jacques) DENU "prevot" (= mayor) of here, Cyriaque ELMRICH burger and farmer of Dauendorf all signed with me, except the bride who declared to be illitterate and apposed her sign Dauendorf, Niedermodern and Bitschhoffen are near Uberach. * To get married during Lent (Quadragesima, Carême in French), Catholic people needed a dispense from the bishop office. Etienne Le 29 juin 11 à 22:15, pat1030 a écrit : > Would someone take a look at this marriage record? Is it saying > something about a dispensation? > > Location: http://archives.bas-rhin.fr) Uberach, M, 1737-1787, 3 E > 496/3 - > Image 39 > > Jacques Jung and Catherine Locher 20 Mar 1765 > > Thank you! > > Pat -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

A burgher was a citizen of the town. There were requirements, and perhaps fees, for that status. You had to petition the town to get it. Or at least up to a certain time. It may have become simply a title for any resident/native at some point in time. Can't say, as I haven't really delved into the topic much. A burgher had certain rights that a vagabond or other resident would not, and were in a different class than the ordinary peasant. At least in certain times. So married burgers would likely have been a legally married couple, whom the husband (and perhaps wife) were citizens of the town. I have at least one ancestor who was a female burger. The only one, I've so far seen, listed as a burger in her own right. It would be "civis" in Latin documents. Probably "citoyen" in French, but can't say as I've seen this in the French records. Brian On Fri, July 1, 2011 8:13 am, pat1030 wrote: > One quick question - what does "married burgers" mean? > >

Feast (Hoy Day, in this case) Of the Ascension. Ascension Day is still celebrated in Lutheran, Catholic and Anglican, and Episcopal Churches. It comes 40 days after Easter whenever that occurs. Gloria On Jul 1, 2011, at 8:30 AM, [email protected] wrote: > Can anyone recommend a web site to help me understand dates like Festum Adscensionis? > > Thanks. > > Paul > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

More likely it is identifying: a prince's estate "princely estate", the name of a military regiment, or an actual prince. The first one indicating a serfdom situation, and the most likely candidate for an answer to your question. Brian On Fri, July 1, 2011 7:47 am, [email protected] wrote: > Would "Fürstl. Meiers" mean "Princely Farmer" , from a 1783 record? > > Thanks. >

"Farmers Helper" would be more correct, but often the farmer's son was given this title, before he came in possession of the farm. So it might or might not be a hired person and you should watch out for the surnames. In any event they were people who lived in the household. Aida On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 8:17 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Would "bauern knecht" here mean "farmer"? > > My dictionary was not clear on this one. > > Jacob Meyer lediger bauern knecht gebürtig von Winkel > Jacob Meyer single farmer born in Winkel > > Thanks again for all of the help. > > best, > Paul > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

That's because you're looking in the wrong place on google. Go to translate.google.com and type it in and select Latin to English, or whatever language you want to read it in. It is indeed the Black Death. Black disease, literally. Bubonic Plague to give it's medical terminology. Although, not all of those records of Black Death were in actuality Bubonic plague. It has been determined that there were other afflictions rolled in with Bubonic plague, but that Bubonic plague did indeed re-occur over a long period of time. That's what happens when you haven't got a microscope handy to determine the actual viral or bacterial cause of death, and a good supply of antibiotics handy to stop a disease in it's tracks. What were those Middle Ages people thinking? ;') I get this from articles I've read on how some graves have been dug up over the years to test these theories. Amazing, that this kind of information can be determined centuries afterward. Scary to find Bubonic plague, and others, still living in the soil of graves centuries later. I doubt they found anything in the Bonfire (aka bonefire) graves, if they even looked there. Brian On Fri, July 1, 2011 7:42 am, [email protected] wrote: > I meant that I could not find one reference to "an morbo nigro" on google. > > I am familiar with the Black Death, if that is what "an morbo nigro" > means. > > Thanks. > > Paul

This is very helpful. Thank you. Paul On Dé hAoine, 1 Iúil, 2011, at 08:06, [email protected] wrote: > Heidolsheim, 7km SSW of Baldenheim. > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Sent: Fri, Jul 1, 2011 8:59 am > Subject: [A-L] Heidolzh > > > A Baldenheim marriage record notes that the bride's dad is from > "Heidolzh". > > Does anyone have any suggestions as to where this might be? > > A separate family note says he was born in Canton Bern, Stafelbach. > > Paul > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the > body of > the message > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Would "bauern knecht" here mean "farmer"? My dictionary was not clear on this one. Jacob Meyer lediger bauern knecht gebürtig von Winkel Jacob Meyer single farmer born in Winkel Thanks again for all of the help. best, Paul

Dominica Rogate is the Sunday before the Day of Ascension. NOT the Sunday after Easter. Or rather the Sunday before the Thursday on whih the Day of Ascension is celebrated. Although some churches celebrate it on a Sunday!? Be at ease, the record is correct. On Fri, July 1, 2011 6:35 am, [email protected] wrote: > Thanks to all who helped with this, and the Festum question, but now there > is a problem, as the record in question reads like this: > > (she was born) The 16th of May, which was Dominica Rogate, and on the next > Thursday, which was Feast/Holy Day of the Ascension, was re-born > (baptized). > > How can the feast day of Ascension be 40 days after Easter if it was 4 > days after Dominica Rogate (the Sunday after Easter)? > > Paul > > On Déardaoin, 30 Meitheamh, 2011, at 19:01, Joseph E Wolfe wrote: > >> Paul 7th Sunday of Trinit y. Joe >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> Get Free Email with Video Mail & Video Chat! >> http://www.juno.com/freeemail?refcd=JUTAGOUT1FREM0210 >> -- >> Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Brian, I am not familiar with the System in Alsace Lorraine, because my expertise is the Austrian Hungarian Bohemian lands. There the King granted farmers, who lived along the Bavarian border, freedom of taxes for the service of watching the deeply wooded border between Bavaria and Bohemia. We are talking here about the Boehmerwald on the Bohemian side and across the Mountain the Bayrische Wald towards the West. To this day there exist a few areas of virgin forest and one can imagine that in the Middle Ages this must have been impenetrable even for the military; so the resident farmers who had settled there were given a "freeman's" status to watch the area. This is part of my family's history, and I have had a hard time to get at the legal aspect of this, because this law seemed to have been granted to the estate rather than the individual owner, or lets say the owner of that estate was given that hereditary right. Not having to pay taxes and the right to bear arms was a great privilege. The size of the farm was not as important as the location how it was situation geographically along the border. There were quite a few free farmers among them, and some of them were not even directly living at the border but quite a few kms inland. All my other ancestors were burghers of cities, so I was very familiar with that aspect; but here again, you have to know each city's laws, because there is no uniform rule. But I found that in all cases it was a grant to the city made by either the King (called Stadtrecht) or by the Bishop, depending who was the owner of that land and these rights had to be renewed with every new potentate for recognition of that special privilege. It entailed Marketing Days, defence, fire brigades, watchman duty, and one had to be a real estate owner in order to acquire Master Craftsman status because apprentices had to be housed at the Master and were given room and board during their training. Tradesmen, Masters of Crafts and Builders were often members of the city council or Burgermasters. Whenever you find a notation on a birth, wedding or death certificate, where it says: Baker and Burgher, or Burgher and Linenweaver, or House Owner and Burgher.... or any such combination.... you can be sure that your family were long time residents in that town and you have a "fertile" harvest of documents from that city's church register. Get the Microfilm from the LDS and take your digital camera with you and you have permanent records which are certified documents. I have seen so many errors on published family trees, that do not copy them. I always try to get my own records. Aida On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 7:44 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > I should have researched before answering that question. > > A Meier was a "free farmer". An owner of land or collector of land rents > with serfs attached. So the term "Fürstl. Meiers", should really translate > as "Princely Free Farmer". I would tend to think of this as being a much > larger estate, or something more than a Meier. The term applying to the > person and not the land as I was assuming. > > But, the French system seems to be different from the German system. They > apparently had actual landowners, who owned the land outright and not > owing any duties to the King (mostly). So, I'm not sure how to move this > German term to the French system. > > Aida, you seem to have some knowledge on the subject. Would you expand on > it some? > > Brian > > On Fri, July 1, 2011 8:37 am, Aida Kraus wrote: > > A princely farmer is a "free farmer"....meaning that they were no serfs. > > These free farmers were free of taxes and sometimes military duty, > > because > > they usually were instrumental in watching borders between estates or > > States. There are different laws in all areas, meaning it was different > > in > > Bohemia versus Bavaria, or Baden and Hessen and changed with the > > potentates. > > I.e. if these border dwellers were for instance under Austria Hungarian > > Regime, the Imperium, or France. > > Aida > > > > On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 6:38 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> More likely it is identifying: a prince's estate "princely estate", the > >> name of a military regiment, or an actual prince. The first one > >> indicating > >> a serfdom situation, and the most likely candidate for an answer to your > >> question. > >> > >> Brian > >> > >> On Fri, July 1, 2011 7:47 am, [email protected] wrote: > >> > Would "Fürstl. Meiers" mean "Princely Farmer" , from a 1783 record? > >> > > >> > Thanks. > >> > > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > -- > > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message