Wow! Totally cool map. One note, the "Baden" in the map is (Ober) Baden, Switzerland on the Lichtenau, and not Baden-Baden, Germany (which is not situated on a river as far as I know). Totally cool to see the old layout of Colmar. Thanks! Brian On Sat, July 2, 2011 1:43 am, gloria ishida wrote: > One probably wouldn't want to purchase this map but the view of ancient > Wissenbourg, albeit small, gives an idea of what the city looked like. > > http://www.sanderusmaps.com/detail-getimage.cfm?c=3202 > > Gloria > --

I forgot to mention, when counting in the Easter season Sundays are not counted. If I remember correctly (and I should) since we Lutherans have it but don't do anything in particular here in Japan because it is hard for people to get to church on a weekday., it comes on a Thursday. Paul, you certainly have brought up some interesting items. Gloria On Jul 1, 2011, at 8:35 PM, [email protected] wrote: > Thanks to all who helped with this, and the Festum question, but now there is a problem, as the record in question reads like this: > > (she was born) The 16th of May, which was Dominica Rogate, and on the next Thursday, which was Feast/Holy Day of the Ascension, was re-born (baptized). > > How can the feast day of Ascension be 40 days after Easter if it was 4 days after Dominica Rogate (the Sunday after Easter)? > > Paul > > On Déardaoin, 30 Meitheamh, 2011, at 19:01, Joseph E Wolfe wrote: > >> Paul 7th Sunday of Trinit y. Joe >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> Get Free Email with Video Mail & Video Chat! >> http://www.juno.com/freeemail?refcd=JUTAGOUT1FREM0210 >> -- >> Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In reply to this discussion about the Bürgermeister and his "second in command" who was the "Rentmeister" there is some mention made in this text: *"Neben die Bürgermeister traten im Laufe des späten Mittelalters noch weitere städtische Beamte,* *ein Rentmeister, der die Finanzgeschäfte regelte, zwei Marktmeister zur Markt- und Preiskontrolle* *sowie ein Stadtsekretär. Verschiedene Stadtdiener und Wächter wurden von der Stadt besoldet."* Translation: "Besides the Mayor we see that other administrators were hired during the later years of the Middle ages, a "Rentmeister" (Bookkeeper, Accountant, CPA) who took care of the accounting, two Marktmeisters (I would translate this as "marketing controllers") wo regulated the markets and prices, as well as a City Secretary and various servants and watchmen, who were all paid from City funds." (Source below) There is far more to read there, as well as the Rights of Burghers if you can read German. Go to this link where an example is given of the City of Duisburg: http://du.nw.schule.de/gsm/pdfs/Duisburg_Geschichte1.pdf Enjoy while I will be on vacation in Canada. Aida On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 5:40 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Yes, Burgermeister did/does mean Mayor. That position along with the > council of twelve managed the town's affairs. I am not aware that Alsace > or Lorraine handled it any differently. I had thought the post on this > question to be a tongue-in-cheek post. I'm not aware of when/if this might > have changed, given one comment posted on this thread. Not sure of what > the modern form of local government is. The numbers may have changed, but > I still see mayors and town councils in every town I research. Can't > recall ever seeing a mayor and a ceremonial mayor in any town; save > Colonial Williamsburg, VA, USA. > > Brian > > On Sat, July 2, 2011 1:45 am, [email protected] wrote: > > I might be wrong about this, but Burgemeister is just the German word for > > Mayor. My grandfather's brother's son,Heinrich Auge, or (Eye which is > > what > > Auge means in German) was Mayor/Burgemeister of the town of > > Recklinghausen, Germany from 1952 to 1972. I have found no record of a > > second or public Mayor. He was also the German equivalent of a senator. > > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Does anyone know what Eselmüller means? Donkey miller ?? I have this term in a baptism document. I cannot find it on the web or in my dictionary. Thanks. best, Paul

Yes, Burgermeister did/does mean Mayor. That position along with the council of twelve managed the town's affairs. I am not aware that Alsace or Lorraine handled it any differently. I had thought the post on this question to be a tongue-in-cheek post. I'm not aware of when/if this might have changed, given one comment posted on this thread. Not sure of what the modern form of local government is. The numbers may have changed, but I still see mayors and town councils in every town I research. Can't recall ever seeing a mayor and a ceremonial mayor in any town; save Colonial Williamsburg, VA, USA. Brian On Sat, July 2, 2011 1:45 am, [email protected] wrote: > I might be wrong about this, but Burgemeister is just the German word for > Mayor. My grandfather's brother's son,Heinrich Auge, or (Eye which is > what > Auge means in German) was Mayor/Burgemeister of the town of > Recklinghausen, Germany from 1952 to 1972. I have found no record of a > second or public Mayor. He was also the German equivalent of a senator.

You are probably referring to the link below. Although my information came from lecture material. I looked for a similar statement at an Internet site, like here: http://medeltiden.kalmarlansmuseum.se/e-niva3/1-6-5.phtml?userid=0 The Town Life link is here: http://www.learner.org/interactives/middleages/<http://www.learner.org/interactives/middleages/townlife.html> townlife.html <http://www.learner.org/interactives/middleages/townlife.html> Aida On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 5:24 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > I may be mistaken, and I am more frequently than I'd like, but I think > Linda and Gloria were hoping for a specific reference to your source that > "children of Burghers who married were granted [full?] Burgher status". > > That line was a new one for me also. Much of the rest of your post I was > already aware of. I have seen statements in my readings that in, at least, > some states (such as The Netherlands) children of Burghers had Burgher > status. Although, nothing in my readings has indicated whether that status > held over into "adulthood". I know that Burgher status could be lost for > various reasons. > > I too was looking forward to seeing a specific reference for your above > statement. While I would love nothing more than to spend hours delving > into the information in your links, my schedule doesn't frequently allow > such open-ended research tasks. ;') > > Brian > > On Fri, July 1, 2011 10:22 pm, Aida Kraus wrote: > > To Gloria and Linda: > > The quickest resource is Zedlers Lexikon (around 1706-1736) which you can > > actually access on line, provided you can read the print. The original > > typeface is "Fraktur" in German, which is also known as "Gothic print" in > > English. There is an index on this site and you can choose the subjects. > > Here is the link: > > http://www.zedler-lexikon.de/index.html > > ... > > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I may be mistaken, and I am more frequently than I'd like, but I think Linda and Gloria were hoping for a specific reference to your source that "children of Burghers who married were granted [full?] Burgher status". That line was a new one for me also. Much of the rest of your post I was already aware of. I have seen statements in my readings that in, at least, some states (such as The Netherlands) children of Burghers had Burgher status. Although, nothing in my readings has indicated whether that status held over into "adulthood". I know that Burgher status could be lost for various reasons. I too was looking forward to seeing a specific reference for your above statement. While I would love nothing more than to spend hours delving into the information in your links, my schedule doesn't frequently allow such open-ended research tasks. ;') Brian On Fri, July 1, 2011 10:22 pm, Aida Kraus wrote: > To Gloria and Linda: > The quickest resource is Zedlers Lexikon (around 1706-1736) which you can > actually access on line, provided you can read the print. The original > typeface is "Fraktur" in German, which is also known as "Gothic print" in > English. There is an index on this site and you can choose the subjects. > Here is the link: > http://www.zedler-lexikon.de/index.html > ...

I might be wrong about this, but Burgemeister is just the German word for Mayor. My grandfather's brother's son,Heinrich Auge, or (Eye which is what Auge means in German) was Mayor/Burgemeister of the town of Recklinghausen, Germany from 1952 to 1972. I have found no record of a second or public Mayor. He was also the German equivalent of a senator. I found the information about him on Wikipedia. He was married and had 3 children. Ellie -----Original Message----- From: Sharon Waechter Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 7:24 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [A-L] Married Burgers? Interesting; thanks. Sharon A Waechter ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, July 1, 2011 1:28:42 PM Subject: Re: [A-L] Married Burgers? I can't speak for Alsace during this time period but when I was in Germany in the 1960s cities/towns had TWO mayors: one was the "mayor" and the other the Burgemeister." One was for social and public appearances (to represent the town) and the other did the day to day work of the mayor's office. Joan In a message dated 7/1/2011 3:53:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: Sharon, The way I understand it, the Burgermeister was both a citizen and the mayor. I am sure that Etienne will correct me if I am mistaken!! :) Linda in Costa Rica -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Oh is THAT what you meant! It came from a Medieval Course Study Pack. But I believe you can purchase this on line here: http://www.bookrags.com/subscribe/choice7.php?p=hist&u=medieval-europe-lifestyle-and-recreation Aida On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:32 PM, gloria ishida <[email protected]> wrote: > Aida, > > Of course, google books that most of us know, is a good source. > > Thank you for your further excellent resources in German, in the Gothic > print that I learned in university. Naturally, I would have to work hard > with some of the references with a German dictionary. > > But would you please tell us the source for your quotation that was in > English; perhaps it was your translation. > > The paragraph with your reference > > 'Read more about the town under "Town Life"' > > We researchers more often than not must to go to secondary sources but > these will lead us to other sources and resources. If we write up more than > names, places and dates (and even in these cases, also), we should indicated > our sources, I am sure you agree. > > Gloria > > > > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

To Gloria and Linda: The quickest resource is Zedlers Lexikon (around 1706-1736) which you can actually access on line, provided you can read the print. The original typeface is "Fraktur" in German, which is also known as "Gothic print" in English. There is an index on this site and you can choose the subjects. Here is the link: http://www.zedler-lexikon.de/index.html You can also search in the libraries, but in these modern times we have far better tools allowing us access to a quick reference from our fingertips. It will never be the "entire" source, of course, but it is a stimulus for further study. Now, go to this link and see for yourself what is offered on line. http://books.google.de/books?vid=OCLC02110460&id=86AJAAAAIAAJ&dq=Das+K%C3%B6n There are, of course many others like these. Since there is a "Schematismus des Koenigreich Boehmens," I am sure there must be such for Alsace Lorraine, because all regions were under noble rule before the revolution in your case, and until the end of WW1 (1918) in the case of Austria Hungary. The demand for taxes, providing regiments, horses, victuals, billeting and supply was from King to Duke, from Duke to the Counts, from Counts to Barons and from the Barons to the managers of their estates and finally to the taxpaying populace. From time to time the King required an - lets say it in modern terms - "inventory of his realm" - and this type of enumeration has survived to our days. There certainly must be such a schematism for Alsace Lorraine which you will have to find, just like I found this link for the main area of my research. If you get to read old legal scripts dated from 1635 to 1744, the legal aspect of the involved persons becomes quite clear and is easier to understand than the rather difficult legal language of that time where scribes used goose quills and the writing was full of ink spots. And here is the register of estates owned by the aristocrats in Bohemia, which is also often helpful, as there is a register of names of people they were employed by them - at THAT time. And finally, for bibliographical purposes here is a valuable link: http://books.google.com/books?id=lL5LAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=schematism#v=onepage&q&f=false where you can pick a title of your interest, and where you may either peruse or delve into it. Besides this, I also found International Interlibrary loans extremely efficient and which you can order "at your fingertips" from your own computer. http://www.antiqbook.com/boox/burgvl/books8000.shtml, Aida Kraus Baumbusch Independent Scholar ------------------------------------------------------------------- On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 5:41 PM, gloria ishida <[email protected]> wrote: > Linda, I agree. > > Not only the book, author, publication, but the original source, usually > found in a footnote or end note. also the area and time period covered. We > cannot assume that every area of pre German unification was the same, and > also we are to be speaking of Alsace which perhaps adapted German custom. > > I have been reading "Our Daily Bread", by Teva J. Scheer that was mentioned > here a while ago. She deals with a specific area of Baden and puts > additional information about burgher status, but again this is Baden. > > Still the discussion has been interesting. > > Gloria I > > > On Jul 2, 2011, at 3:33 AM, Linda H Gutierrez wrote: > > >> From where did you get this information you posted? Please provide > sources > > especially if this is taken from somewhere and not in your own words! > > > > > > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Paul, stehen(den) = stand(ing) => presently in service Etienne Le 1 juil. 11 à 19:46, [email protected] a écrit : > I appreciate so much the help that I received this morning. > > I hired someone to transcribe a bunch of records, but I am > translating them myself. > > As you can see, sometimes I hit a roadblock. > > Here is another roadblock: > > hier im Dienste stehenden Bauernknechte, Jakob Meier, > > Does this mean: > here in service (under obligation?) farmer's helper, Jakob Meier, ? > > Thanks. > > best, > Paul

Hello Pat and listers, civium et conjugum = literally, burgers and a couple Before the French Revolution, there were two kinds of inhabitants of a community: the "bourgeois" (Bürger, civis) and the "manants" (Hintersäß, incola). (The vagabonds (vagabundus) were still another category). The bourgeois had more rights than a manant, such as participating to a corporation, etc. (but I'm not much aware to this topic). If I remember well, he had to pay a fee prior to be admitted into the "bourgeoisie". Some towns possess old registers called "admission à la bourgeoisie" (Bürgerbuch), that existed sometimes long before the onset of parish registers. The Revolution abolished these differences. Every inhabitant bacame then a "citoyen" (citizen). Etienne Le 1 juil. 11 à 15:13, pat1030 a écrit : > One quick question - what does "married burgers" mean? > > > > -----Original Message----- > Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 1:43 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [A-L] Help Reading Marriage Record Please? > > Hi Pat, > > here the transcription and an explanation of the record. > (...) > Jacobus JUNG miles invalidus, filius defunctorum Michaelis JUNG et > Christinae GRIEGERin civium et conjugum in vita commorantium in > Dauendorff, > et Catharina LOCHER vidua Joannis JEROME civis in vita in Ebrach > commorantis, > Approximate translation: > (...) > Jacob (Jacques) JUNG, invalid soldier, son of the deceased Michael > JUNG and > (deceased) Christina GRIEGER (or GRIEG), married burgers of Dauendorf > Catharina LOCHER, widow of Joannes (Jean) JEROME burger of Ebrach

Fürstl(icher) Meyer = farmer administrating a farm belonging to a lord, here a Fürst = prince. Why make things complicated when they are simple? Etienne Le 1 juil. 11 à 16:44, [email protected] a écrit : > I should have researched before answering that question. > > A Meier was a "free farmer". An owner of land or collector of land > rents > with serfs attached. So the term "Fürstl. Meiers", should really > translate > as "Princely Free Farmer". I would tend to think of this as being a > much > larger estate, or something more than a Meier. The term applying to > the > person and not the land as I was assuming. > > But, the French system seems to be different from the German system. > They > apparently had actual landowners, who owned the land outright and not > owing any duties to the King (mostly). So, I'm not sure how to move > this > German term to the French system. > > Aida, you seem to have some knowledge on the subject. Would you > expand on > it some? > > Brian > > On Fri, July 1, 2011 8:37 am, Aida Kraus wrote: >> A princely farmer is a "free farmer"....meaning that they were no >> serfs. >> These free farmers were free of taxes and sometimes military duty, >> because >> they usually were instrumental in watching borders between estates or >> States. There are different laws in all areas, meaning it was >> different >> in >> Bohemia versus Bavaria, or Baden and Hessen and changed with the >> potentates. >> I.e. if these border dwellers were for instance under Austria >> Hungarian >> Regime, the Imperium, or France. >> Aida >> >> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 6:38 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> More likely it is identifying: a prince's estate "princely >>> estate", the >>> name of a military regiment, or an actual prince. The first one >>> indicating >>> a serfdom situation, and the most likely candidate for an answer >>> to your >>> question. >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> On Fri, July 1, 2011 7:47 am, [email protected] wrote: >>>> Would "Fürstl. Meiers" mean "Princely Farmer" , from a 1783 record? >>>> >>>> Thanks.

Subject: Re: [A-L] an morbo nigro   It appears to be the Latin form of black disease ... which may be related to a liver disease mostly seen in sheep, but I think it may be safe to assume at that point that it was likely the Black death that was being written about. My latin is even more limited than my French and German. See the following book "De Morbo Nigro" by S.A.D. Tissot, MD 1760. http://books.google.com/books?id=g9A_AAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Morbo+nigro&hl=en&ei=rHIOTvjPGcKltwfJn-SADg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=morbo%20nigro&f=false Hope this helps. Dave

Archives Départementales du Bas-Rhin (http://archives.bas-rhin.fr) Huttendorf, BMS, 1636-1717, 3E 214/1 - Image 36 Child of Jean Jung and Anna Eberhard?? Thank you!

Try Switzerland. Narda On 1 July 2011 10:59, <[email protected]> wrote: > A Baldenheim marriage record notes that the bride's dad is from "Heidolzh". > > Does anyone have any suggestions as to where this might be? > > A separate family note says he was born in Canton Bern, Stafelbach. > > Paul > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I can't speak for Alsace during this time period but when I was in Germany in the 1960s cities/towns had TWO mayors: one was the "mayor" and the other the Burgemeister." One was for social and public appearances (to represent the town) and the other did the day to day work of the mayor's office. Joan In a message dated 7/1/2011 3:53:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: Sharon, The way I understand it, the Burgermeister was both a citizen and the mayor. I am sure that Etienne will correct me if I am mistaken!! :) Linda in Costa Rica

I looked at a later birth index for Huttendorf and realized that the godmother's maiden name was Gangloff and not Ganytot. Steve   ________________________________ From: Stephan Wall <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 7:03:38 PM Subject: Re: [A-L] Help with another record please I am no expert but, here is a rough translation of the birth record: Today the 5th of March 1710, was born and baptized, Anna, legitimate daughter of Joannis Jung and Anna Eberhard, who were married in Huttendorf, the godfather is the respectable youngman Michel Bilels, son of Christian Bilels, a citizen, and true godmother the modest maiden (no name entered?) legitimate daughter of Joannis Ganytots, a citizen. I would love to see a revised translation from someone a little more knowlegeable with latin. Steve ________________________________ From: pat1030 <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 5:05:20 PM Subject: [A-L] Help with another record please Archives Départementales du Bas-Rhin (http://archives.bas-rhin.fr) Huttendorf, BMS, 1636-1717, 3E 214/1 - Image 36 Child of Jean Jung and Anna Eberhard?? Thank you! -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm  ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm  ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Interesting; thanks. Sharon A Waechter ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, July 1, 2011 1:28:42 PM Subject: Re: [A-L] Married Burgers? I can't speak for Alsace during this time period but when I was in Germany in the 1960s cities/towns had TWO mayors: one was the "mayor" and the other the Burgemeister." One was for social and public appearances (to represent the town) and the other did the day to day work of the mayor's office. Joan In a message dated 7/1/2011 3:53:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: Sharon, The way I understand it, the Burgermeister was both a citizen and the mayor. I am sure that Etienne will correct me if I am mistaken!! :) Linda in Costa Rica -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am no expert but, here is a rough translation of the birth record: Today the 5th of March 1710, was born and baptized, Anna, legitimate daughter of Joannis Jung and Anna Eberhard, who were married in Huttendorf, the godfather is the respectable youngman Michel Bilels, son of Christian Bilels, a citizen, and true godmother the modest maiden (no name entered?) legitimate daughter of Joannis Ganytots, a citizen. I would love to see a revised translation from someone a little more knowlegeable with latin. Steve ________________________________ From: pat1030 <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 5:05:20 PM Subject: [A-L] Help with another record please Archives Départementales du Bas-Rhin (http://archives.bas-rhin.fr) Huttendorf, BMS, 1636-1717, 3E 214/1 - Image 36 Child of Jean Jung and Anna Eberhard?? Thank you! -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm  ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message