I have a note that says a David Uhlandt was born in Oberrathsamhause in the Alsace in 1713 (first generation, his parents being from Lindau, Switzerland). But I cannot find Oberrathsamhause in the South or North Alsace list of towns on the 2 French web sites containing records. Does anyone recognize this town name? Thanks. best, Paul

Thanks. It's interesting, this woman's mother's offical name contained "Maria", and this woman's daughter's offical name contained "Maria". Maybe that is part of the reason why "Marie" appears on the woman's own death record. Thanks for commenting on this. Paul On Dé Sathairn, 2 Iúil, 2011, at 18:17, Marsha Ensminger wrote: > Across the border in Westphalia, it was usual for babies to receive two to four "first" names at baptism. The baptismal registry was often the last time all names were used at once. In the parish I'm familiar with, the pastor underlined one name in the registry - it was the one the child was called by. ("Rufname" in German) It was almost never the first name in the list. > > It's possible she added "Marie" when she was confirmed. > > So the only issue I see with your list of names is the one in the daughter's death record. Assuming the daughter lived to adulthood, information at the time of her death could have been supplied by a spouse, child, or neighbor... who may not have known what the mother's "official" name was. > > Your list is much cleaner than some I've worked with, in which the same mother could be named in the birth records of her children "Anna Barbara", "Barbara Maria", "Barbara Anna", "Maria Barbara"... > > Marsha L. Ensminger > > > --- On Sat, 7/2/11, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > >> From: [email protected] <[email protected]> >> Subject: [A-L] name changes 1700s >> To: [email protected] >> Date: Saturday, July 2, 2011, 2:46 PM >> Folks, >> >> I am trying to understand a problem that seems to be unique >> to one family. >> >> The mother: >> In her own birth record she is called Anna Barbara >> In her own wedding record she is called Anna Barbara >> In her own death record she is called Anna Barbara >> >> Her daughter: >> In daughter's birth record, the mother is called Barbara >> In daughter's marriage record, the mother is called Anna >> Barbara >> In daughter's death record, the mother is called Anne >> Marie >> >> Otherwise the surnames and spouses and the time-lines are >> all a perfect match. >> >> Can anyone comment on this? >> >> Thanks. >> >> best, >> Paul >> -- >> Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the >> subject and the body of the message >> > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Brian, you are right that in certain areas at least, burgher status could not be transferred to another town if one moved. Also, again depending on location, women could have burgher status but could not pass it on to children. Sounds like mitrochondrial for males. Smile. I do wish we could find specifics for Alsace. Googling I could only find anywhere specific to individual Alsatian burghers (and my " internet history is too long and not bringing up what I want at the moment) was that the only source of income for Wissenbourg burghers was local wine. They did well, for the photos of the many remaining burgher houses there are lovely. Gloria On Jul 2, 2011, at 9:24 PM, [email protected] wrote: > I may be mistaken, and I am more frequently than I'd like, but I think > Linda and Gloria were hoping for a specific reference to your source that > "children of Burghers who married were granted [full?] Burgher status". > > That line was a new one for me also. Much of the rest of your post I was > already aware of. I have seen statements in my readings that in, at least, > some states (such as The Netherlands) children of Burghers had Burgher > status. Although, nothing in my readings has indicated whether that status > held over into "adulthood". I know that Burgher status could be lost for > various reasons. > > I too was looking forward to seeing a specific reference for your above > statement. While I would love nothing more than to spend hours delving > into the information in your links, my schedule doesn't frequently allow > such open-ended research tasks. ;') > > Brian >

Yes, I think it does pretty much mean donkey miller (Esel Mueller). Donkeys and other animals were sometimes used to turn mills. There are a few references to Eselmueller on the web and perhaps you could contact the more prominent one at www.eselmueller.ch the email address [email protected] He apparently does donkey rides and stuff like that, but I'd guess that he has a good understanding of the tradition of Eselmuellers. Good luck, Dave "Does anyone know what Eselm?ller means? Donkey miller ?? I have this term in a baptism document. I cannot find it on the web or in my dictionary...."

Sharon, as other listers wrote it, Bürgermeister is indeed the "mayor" of a village or town in today Germany. This term was used in Alsace during the German annexion (1871-1918), but people continued to say "maire" in Alsatian dialect. In older texts, the head of a community was designated by various terms, depending on jurisdictions and time periods, with various functions. In villages: prévot, praetor, Schultheiss (scultetus), etc. In bigger towns: Ammeister (e.g. Strasbourg), Stadtvogt, Stettmeister, etc. Members of the town council were consul or senator, etc. Etienne Le 1 juil. 11 à 21:12, Sharon Waechter a écrit : > Etienne, > > Does this mean that a Burgermeister is not the same as "Mayor," but > is instead the head of a group of burgers? > > Sharon > > Sharon A Waechter, M.A./RPA

Thank you, Etienne. I always look forward to your messages, as you have much more direct knowledge of these things than most of us do. As for the Alsatian dialect - my father always told me that his Alsatian grandparents (one from Bitschhoffen, the other from Erstein) spoke "both French and German." Knowing that the Alsatian dialect includes some of each, I wonder if he was just confused about this, or if it was common in the nineteenth century for Alsatians to speak all three? Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Etienne Herrbach" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, July 2, 2011 10:05:18 AM Subject: Re: [A-L] Bürgermeister Sharon, as other listers wrote it, Bürgermeister is indeed the "mayor" of a village or town in today Germany. This term was used in Alsace during the German annexion (1871-1918), but people continued to say "maire" in Alsatian dialect. In older texts, the head of a community was designated by various terms, depending on jurisdictions and time periods, with various functions. In villages: prévot, praetor, Schultheiss (scultetus), etc. In bigger towns: Ammeister (e.g. Strasbourg), Stadtvogt, Stettmeister, etc. Members of the town council were consul or senator, etc. Etienne Le 1 juil. 11 à 21:12, Sharon Waechter a écrit : > Etienne, > > Does this mean that a Burgermeister is not the same as "Mayor," but > is instead the head of a group of burgers? > > Sharon > > Sharon A Waechter, M.A./RPA -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Sure Aida, there were farmers who owned their land. However, I maintain that "Fürstlicher Meyer" (the initial question asked by Paul) refers to an officer who administrated an estate owned by the lord (here a Fürst). At least in Alsace under the "old regime" (before 1789), the region this list is about (with Lorraine). Sources: - F.J. Himly, 1983, Dictionnaire ancien alsacien - Français: << Meier, Meyer: intendant seigneurial. Meierrei, Meierhof = métairie.>> - R. Oberlé & L. Sittler, 1982, Le Haut-Rhin, Dictionnaire des communes: << Meier, Meyer: officier du seigneur. (...) Il décide, juge et régit au nom du seigneur territorial.>> Etienne living in Alsace Le 1 juil. 11 à 20:16, Aida Kraus a écrit : > No Etienne, there are farmers who OWN the estate and provide > services to the > Prince! > Aida > > On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 9:48 AM, Etienne Herrbach < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Fürstl(icher) Meyer = farmer administrating a farm belonging to a >> lord, here a Fürst = prince. >> >> Why make things complicated when they are simple? >> >> Etienne >> >> >> Le 1 juil. 11 à 16:44, [email protected] a écrit : >> >>> I should have researched before answering that question. >>> >>> A Meier was a "free farmer". An owner of land or collector of land >>> rents with serfs attached. So the term "Fürstl. Meiers", should >>> really >>> translate as "Princely Free Farmer". I would tend to think of this >>> as being a >>> much larger estate, or something more than a Meier. The term >>> applying to >>> the person and not the land as I was assuming. >>> >>> But, the French system seems to be different from the German system. >>> They apparently had actual landowners, who owned the land outright >>> and not >>> owing any duties to the King (mostly). So, I'm not sure how to move >>> this German term to the French system. >>> >>> Aida, you seem to have some knowledge on the subject. Would you >>> expand on it some? >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> On Fri, July 1, 2011 8:37 am, Aida Kraus wrote: >>>> A princely farmer is a "free farmer"....meaning that they were no >>>> serfs. These free farmers were free of taxes and sometimes >>>> military duty, >>>> because they usually were instrumental in watching borders >>>> between estates or >>>> States. There are different laws in all areas, meaning it was >>>> different in Bohemia versus Bavaria, or Baden and Hessen and >>>> changed with the >>>> potentates. I.e. if these border dwellers were for instance under >>>> Austria >>>> Hungarian Regime, the Imperium, or France. >>>> Aida >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 6:38 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> More likely it is identifying: a prince's estate "princely >>>>> estate", the name of a military regiment, or an actual prince. >>>>> The first one >>>>> indicating a serfdom situation, and the most likely candidate >>>>> for an answer >>>>> to your question. >>>>> >>>>> Brian >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, July 1, 2011 7:47 am, [email protected] wrote: >>>>>> Would "Fürstl. Meiers" mean "Princely Farmer" , from a 1783 >>>>>> record? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks.

Across the border in Westphalia, it was usual for babies to receive two to four "first" names at baptism. The baptismal registry was often the last time all names were used at once. In the parish I'm familiar with, the pastor underlined one name in the registry - it was the one the child was called by. ("Rufname" in German) It was almost never the first name in the list. It's possible she added "Marie" when she was confirmed. So the only issue I see with your list of names is the one in the daughter's death record. Assuming the daughter lived to adulthood, information at the time of her death could have been supplied by a spouse, child, or neighbor... who may not have known what the mother's "official" name was. Your list is much cleaner than some I've worked with, in which the same mother could be named in the birth records of her children "Anna Barbara", "Barbara Maria", "Barbara Anna", "Maria Barbara"... Marsha L. Ensminger --- On Sat, 7/2/11, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > From: [email protected] <[email protected]> > Subject: [A-L] name changes 1700s > To: [email protected] > Date: Saturday, July 2, 2011, 2:46 PM > Folks, > > I am trying to understand a problem that seems to be unique > to one family. > > The mother: > In her own birth record she is called Anna Barbara > In her own wedding record she is called Anna Barbara > In her own death record she is called Anna Barbara > > Her daughter: > In daughter's birth record, the mother is called Barbara > In daughter's marriage record, the mother is called Anna > Barbara > In daughter's death record, the mother is called Anne > Marie > > Otherwise the surnames and spouses and the time-lines are > all a perfect match. > > Can anyone comment on this? > > Thanks. > > best, > Paul > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm  > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > subject and the body of the message >

Hello, more of old maps (Strasbourg, Basel, ....all over Europe) from the same book: http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/mapmakers/braun_hogenberg.html Brian, this Baden is indeed the Swiss one. It is on the river Limmat. Why Lichtenau? BTW Brian, I'll respond later to your question about Beltz / Betzung. Etienne Le 2 juil. 11 à 15:14, [email protected] a écrit : > Wow! Totally cool map. > > One note, the "Baden" in the map is (Ober) Baden, Switzerland on the > Lichtenau, and not Baden-Baden, Germany (which is not situated on a > river > as far as I know). > > Totally cool to see the old layout of Colmar. > > Thanks! > > Brian > > On Sat, July 2, 2011 1:43 am, gloria ishida wrote: >> One probably wouldn't want to purchase this map but the view of >> ancient >> Wissenbourg, albeit small, gives an idea of what the city looked >> like. >> >> http://www.sanderusmaps.com/detail-getimage.cfm?c=3202 >> >> Gloria

Paul, likely the miller (Müller) of the mill called Eselmühle (mill of the donjkey). Etienne Le 2 juil. 11 à 16:52, [email protected] a écrit : > Does anyone know what Eselmüller means? > > Donkey miller ?? > > I have this term in a baptism document. > > I cannot find it on the web or in my dictionary. > > Thanks. > > best, > Paul

One probably wouldn't want to purchase this map but the view of ancient Wissenbourg, albeit small, gives an idea of what the city looked like. http://www.sanderusmaps.com/detail-getimage.cfm?c=3202 Gloria

Oh I see, i see that it is an encyclopedia article. Thank you. Gloria On Jul 2, 2011, at 2:55 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > Oh is THAT what you meant! It came from a Medieval Course Study Pack. But > I believe you can purchase this on line here: > http://www.bookrags.com/subscribe/choice7.php?p=hist&u=medieval-europe-lifestyle-and-recreation > Aida > > On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:32 PM, gloria ishida <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Folks, I am trying to understand a problem that seems to be unique to one family. The mother: In her own birth record she is called Anna Barbara In her own wedding record she is called Anna Barbara In her own death record she is called Anna Barbara Her daughter: In daughter's birth record, the mother is called Barbara In daughter's marriage record, the mother is called Anna Barbara In daughter's death record, the mother is called Anne Marie Otherwise the surnames and spouses and the time-lines are all a perfect match. Can anyone comment on this? Thanks. best, Paul

Aida, Of course, google books that most of us know, is a good source. Thank you for your further excellent resources in German, in the Gothic print that I learned in university. Naturally, I would have to work hard with some of the references with a German dictionary. But would you please tell us the source for your quotation that was in English; perhaps it was your translation. The paragraph with your reference 'Read more about the town under "Town Life"' We researchers more often than not must to go to secondary sources but these will lead us to other sources and resources. If we write up more than names, places and dates (and even in these cases, also), we should indicated our sources, I am sure you agree. Gloria

> Brian, > > this Baden is indeed the Swiss one. It is on the river Limmat. > Why Lichtenau? Why? Because I have Swiss cheese for a brain and can't type. I realized my mistake as soon as I hit transmit, but my hand wouldn't fit through the mail slot to grab it back! Brian

Brian, Baden-Baden is a city in the Grandduchy of Baden, just to the north of Switzerland. Prior to 1931 the city of Baden-Baden was simply called Baden (Baths) in the Grandduchy of Baden. At 10:21 AM 7/2/2011, you wrote: >From: [email protected] >Subject: Re: [A-L] Wissenbourg map > >Wow! Totally cool map. > >One note, the "Baden" in the map is (Ober) Baden, Switzerland on the >Lichtenau, and not Baden-Baden, Germany (which is not situated on a river >as far as I know). > >Totally cool to see the old layout of Colmar. > >Thanks! > >Brian ____________________________________________________________ Groupon&#8482 Official Site 1 ridiculously huge coupon a day. Get 50-90% off your city&#39;s best! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/4e0f3cf1d1ea21a3021st06vuc

Assuming it's the same as in English, he would have operated a mill where power was supplied by a donkey. Under 'horse mill' in Wikipedia there's a photo of a donkey mill in operation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_mill Judith Werner Salt Lake City ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 8:52 AM Subject: [A-L] Eselmüller Does anyone know what Eselmüller means? Donkey miller ??

Linda, I agree. Not only the book, author, publication, but the original source, usually found in a footnote or end note. also the area and time period covered. We cannot assume that every area of pre German unification was the same, and also we are to be speaking of Alsace which perhaps adapted German custom. I have been reading "Our Daily Bread", by Teva J. Scheer that was mentioned here a while ago. She deals with a specific area of Baden and puts additional information about burgher status, but again this is Baden. Still the discussion has been interesting. Gloria I On Jul 2, 2011, at 3:33 AM, Linda H Gutierrez wrote: >> From where did you get this information you posted? Please provide sources > especially if this is taken from somewhere and not in your own words! > >

Thank you. Paul On Dé Sathairn, 2 Iúil, 2011, at 08:41, Etienne Herrbach wrote: > Paul, > > likely the miller (Müller) of the mill called Eselmühle (mill of the > donjkey). > > Etienne > > > > Le 2 juil. 11 à 16:52, [email protected] a écrit : > >> Does anyone know what Eselmüller means? >> >> Donkey miller ?? >> >> I have this term in a baptism document. >> >> I cannot find it on the web or in my dictionary. >> >> Thanks. >> >> best, >> Paul > > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Under "Buergerrecht" of the City of Duisburg, for instance you can find extensive information on the rights and duties of a burgher on page 6 and 7. It also states there: "*Bürger konnte man nicht ohne weiteres werden, es sei denn, schon der Vater hatte das Bürgerrecht* *innegehabt."* *TRANSLATION:* *"One could not become a Burgher so easily, unless the father was already a Burgher (of the town). "* So we see here, that in the City of Duisburg, for instance, not two but only one parent, in this case the father, had to be a burgher in order for the progeny born there was given them a Burgher's right. Same link as sent in regard to the Bürgermeister ..... but for this Bürgerrecgt by birth go to page 6 and 7. http://du.nw.schule.de/gsm/pdfs/Duisburg_Geschichte1.pdf Bye, I am out as of now... Aida ------------------------------------ On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 5:40 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Yes, Burgermeister did/does mean Mayor. That position along with the > council of twelve managed the town's affairs. I am not aware that Alsace > or Lorraine handled it any differently. I had thought the post on this > question to be a tongue-in-cheek post. I'm not aware of when/if this might > have changed, given one comment posted on this thread. Not sure of what > the modern form of local government is. The numbers may have changed, but > I still see mayors and town councils in every town I research. Can't > recall ever seeing a mayor and a ceremonial mayor in any town; save > Colonial Williamsburg, VA, USA. > > Brian > > On Sat, July 2, 2011 1:45 am, [email protected] wrote: > > I might be wrong about this, but Burgemeister is just the German word for > > Mayor. My grandfather's brother's son,Heinrich Auge, or (Eye which is > > what > > Auge means in German) was Mayor/Burgemeister of the town of > > Recklinghausen, Germany from 1952 to 1972. I have found no record of a > > second or public Mayor. He was also the German equivalent of a senator. > > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >