The term Alsace-Lorraine, Imperial Territory of Alsace-Lorraine (Reichsland Elsass-Lothringen), was first used in 1871, when the former French province of Alsace, (Departments of Bas-Rhin and Haut-Rhin) and the Department of Moselle, Lorraine (with some minor changes), 5,067 square miles, were annexed by the newly formed German Empire. Most of traditional Lorraine remained within France. The population of Alsace-Lorraine in 1890 was 77% Catholic, 21% Protestant and 2% Jewish. The upper part of the Vallee de la Bruche (the cantons of Saales and Schirmeck), which had been part of the Vosges, Lorraine passed to Alsace in 1891-1892. These territories were returned to France in 1919, after World War I. They were ceded to Germany during World War II, but France regained them after Germany's defeat in 1945. Joe Rhein -----Original Message----- From: Ralph Taylor Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2011 1:51 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [A-L] ALSACE-LORRAINE place names Re: "For many years I had always thought my fathers fathers side of the family came from the Alsace-Lorraine area located in Germany near Trier and the Moselle River ... Is it still correct to say my father's father's German ancestors came from Alsace-Lorraine area?" Alsace (Elszass in German) and Lorraine (Lothringen) were created when -- a very long time ago -- Charlemagne willed the territories to two of his sons. They have been mostly separate since that time. IMO, lumping them together into one "Alsace-Lorraine" obscures their individual identities and rich histories. We need to take account of the most significant geographical feature, the gigantic Rhine River. It forms the northern border of Lorraine and the northern and part of the eastern borders of Alsace. The significance of the Rhine River barrier is demonstrated by the fact that Caesar's conquest of Gaul (France) was stopped there. Germany did not exist as a nation (perhaps, as a state of mind) until unified by Prussia in the late 19th century. After fragmentation of the Holy Roman Empire, what we now call Germany was an ever-changing grab-bag of principalities, bishoprics, free cities, dukedoms, etc. What with aristocratic marriage dowries, inheritances, debt settlements, wars and such the little states were traded around from one noble house to another. So before then, we can talk about a Germanic language and Germanic culture, but not a country. Alsace and Lorraine were under Prussian (thus German) control from the Franco-Prussian War until World War I. So, if your ancestor was describing the area in 1900, he might have used the term Germany; but it would not have been accurate in 1826 or in the 1700s. As to Borg in present-day Saarland, I think you'll have to look up its specific history to identify who it belonged to when. -rt_/) -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

When recording, why not put in whichever the place belonged to at the time of your ancestor's being born and residing there? Then note the present location. Gl On Jul 8, 2011, at 2:51 AM, Ralph Taylor wrote: > Re: "For many years I had always thought my fathers fathers side of the > family came from the Alsace-Lorraine area located in Germany near Trier and > the Moselle River ... Is it still correct to say my father's father's > German ancestors came from Alsace-Lorraine area?" > > > > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Gosh, this is annoying. Amidst the spam, tonight I found maybe 20 posts from list members, including lots of repeats of the *same over-size post*. I don't know about you, but one of the things I HATE about some mail lists is the endless quoting, until I can't make any sense of the question, information, query, and answer. I refuse to allow this list to descend to that. All of us know how to snip un-needed quoting in our replies. (If you do not, and need some help, please write [email protected] and I'll help.) So people, please take that extra minute to snip the extra, and while you are at it, check your Subject line. We're all busy people, and lots of us do not have time to read every post. This is your advertising! Use it. Our top message size is 10K, but I have no problem letting a legitimate larger post through. I really do have a problem with one that is a sentence or two, and 15K of quoted material! Please snip wisely; your fellow list members will thank you, and I will thank you, a thousand times over. Thanks for your collective wisdom, Valorie

I thank you all for your advice. I did some internet search. Borg is located 5 km northeast of Perl and 11 KM southwest of Nennig on the River Mosel. The nearby Roman Villa Borg is one of the Saarland's most important archaeological sites. Borg is first mentioned in 1569 as being part of Parish Perl, excavations show that there were much earlier settlements. The parish church dates from 1728. Over the years it belonged to St. Alban's Charterhouse in Trier, to the diosceses of Metz and Trier, and to the Duchy of Luxembourg. The majority of my German ancestors immigrated between 1850 and 1875 to the US. Some US records say they are from Germany some from Prussia. My recollection is that they said they were from Trier area, Mosel River area, and Alsace-Lorraine area. I guess when you live near a country's border our ancestors saw many changes. With the borders of the Elsass-Lothringen northern borders of Begium, Luxembourg, and the German State of Saarland and with Borg 11 miles from the Moselle River and close to the point where Luxembourg, France and Germany meet Borg must have a rich history being it is for most part a border town. Thanks again, Alice Ralph Taylor wrote: > Re: "For many years I had always thought my fathers fathers side of the > family came from the Alsace-Lorraine area located in Germany near Trier and > the Moselle River ... Is it still correct to say my father's father's > German ancestors came from Alsace-Lorraine area?" > > Alsace (Elszass in German) and Lorraine (Lothringen) were created when -- a > very long time ago -- Charlemagne willed the territories to two of his sons. > They have been mostly separate since that time. IMO, lumping them together > into one "Alsace-Lorraine" obscures their individual identities and rich > histories. > > We need to take account of the most significant geographical feature, the > gigantic Rhine River. It forms the northern border of Lorraine and the > northern and part of the eastern borders of Alsace. The significance of the > Rhine River barrier is demonstrated by the fact that Caesar's conquest of > Gaul (France) was stopped there. > > Germany did not exist as a nation (perhaps, as a state of mind) until > unified by Prussia in the late 19th century. After fragmentation of the Holy > Roman Empire, what we now call Germany was an ever-changing grab-bag of > principalities, bishoprics, free cities, dukedoms, etc. What with > aristocratic marriage dowries, inheritances, debt settlements, wars and such > the little states were traded around from one noble house to another. So > before then, we can talk about a Germanic language and Germanic culture, but > not a country. > > Alsace and Lorraine were under Prussian (thus German) control from the > Franco-Prussian War until World War I. So, if your ancestor was describing > the area in 1900, he might have used the term Germany; but it would not have > been accurate in 1826 or in the 1700s. > > As to Borg in present-day Saarland, I think you'll have to look up its > specific history to identify who it belonged to when. > > -rt_/) > > >

Hi, <http://genealogy.rohrbacher.net/lauraaa/SCHMITT/PierreSCHMITT.rtf> regards, Charles. Selon Laura <[email protected]>: > Good morning all, > > I transcribed Pierre's death record, but the further I got, the less sense > it made. Help please! I posted the original (and my pathetic attempt at > transcribing it) on my blog at http://livinginthepastlane.blogspot.com/ > > Thank you in advance for your help! > > It's all relative, > > Laura >

Pam, geb = geborene = born Etienne Le 7 juil. 11 à 22:07, pam fisher a écrit : > Quick question...have recently made contact with someone and was > able to get my hands on some old church records. All the womens > names have geb used in between first and middle name. Example: > Ernestine geb Busse. What does geb mean and why was it used? > > Thank You, > Pam

Geb is short for Geboren or Born in German. It indicates the wife's maiden name. Similar to Dorothea Schmidt geb Mueler was born Dorothea Mueler and married someone named Schmidt. Charles C. Laun, R.A. Sr. Architect 64 South Street, Auburn, NY 13021 Phone: 315-253-7301 Direct: 315-253-7400 x2255 Fax: 315-253-7306 Email: [email protected] http://www.beardsley.com/ -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of pam fisher Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2011 4:07 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [A-L] geb Quick question...have recently made contact with someone and was able to get my hands on some old church records. All the womens names have geb used in between first and middle name. Example: Ernestine geb Busse. What does geb mean and why was it used? Thank You, Pam -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Quick question...have recently made contact with someone and was able to get my hands on some old church records. All the womens names have geb used in between first and middle name. Example: Ernestine geb Busse. What does geb mean and why was it used? Thank You, Pam

Re: "For many years I had always thought my fathers fathers side of the family came from the Alsace-Lorraine area located in Germany near Trier and the Moselle River ... Is it still correct to say my father's father's German ancestors came from Alsace-Lorraine area?" Alsace (Elszass in German) and Lorraine (Lothringen) were created when -- a very long time ago -- Charlemagne willed the territories to two of his sons. They have been mostly separate since that time. IMO, lumping them together into one "Alsace-Lorraine" obscures their individual identities and rich histories. We need to take account of the most significant geographical feature, the gigantic Rhine River. It forms the northern border of Lorraine and the northern and part of the eastern borders of Alsace. The significance of the Rhine River barrier is demonstrated by the fact that Caesar's conquest of Gaul (France) was stopped there. Germany did not exist as a nation (perhaps, as a state of mind) until unified by Prussia in the late 19th century. After fragmentation of the Holy Roman Empire, what we now call Germany was an ever-changing grab-bag of principalities, bishoprics, free cities, dukedoms, etc. What with aristocratic marriage dowries, inheritances, debt settlements, wars and such the little states were traded around from one noble house to another. So before then, we can talk about a Germanic language and Germanic culture, but not a country. Alsace and Lorraine were under Prussian (thus German) control from the Franco-Prussian War until World War I. So, if your ancestor was describing the area in 1900, he might have used the term Germany; but it would not have been accurate in 1826 or in the 1700s. As to Borg in present-day Saarland, I think you'll have to look up its specific history to identify who it belonged to when. -rt_/)

Good morning all, I transcribed Pierre's death record, but the further I got, the less sense it made. Help please! I posted the original (and my pathetic attempt at transcribing it) on my blog at http://livinginthepastlane.blogspot.com/ Thank you in advance for your help! It's all relative, Laura PS - Do we have an ancestor in common? Check my family history web site<http://livinginthepastlane.com/> or my blog <http://livinginthepastlane.blogspot.com/>.

Jean, parent = relative éloigné = distant Etienne > Message du 07/07/11 04:05 > De : [email protected] > A : [email protected] > > > Can someone please tell me what the English translation of "parent e' > loigne" is? > It is a relationship to the groom in a marriage record. I do not think it > is "mother-in-law" or something like that. > Thanks, Jean

Hi. Not sure if this will help but my French dictionary gives the word: éloigné - meaning distant, remote. Also éloignement - distance: remoteness, distance (in space or time) 2: removal 3: absence Perhaps it refers to a parent who is absent from the occasion of the marriage. Ellen -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Wed, Jul 6, 2011 10:03 pm Subject: [A-L] Translation, please an someone please tell me what the English translation of "parent e' oigne" is? t is a relationship to the groom in a marriage record. I do not think it s "mother-in-law" or something like that. hanks, Jean - esources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: ttp://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message

This "History" is very interesting, my GGGrandfather came from a small village in Lorraine. Name of Schweyen and he was German, name was Jean Pierre BUCHHEIT. Thanks to everyone on this site, I'm learning a lot. Richard

Can someone please tell me what the English translation of "parent e' loigne" is? It is a relationship to the groom in a marriage record. I do not think it is "mother-in-law" or something like that. Thanks, Jean

Theres, You may have this already but I found a birth announcement on FamilySearch.org for a Clementine Renaut, b. 23 Feb 1868 in Manhatten, NYC, New York. She was the daughter of your Jean Joseph Victor Renault and Henriette Theuret. Rik Hill -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 8:30 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [A-L] Beginner needs help Hello all. Please forgive the length of this post. I am detailing my confusion in the hopes that some kind soul will point out something obvious that I am not seeing for the trees. I have two immigrant ancestors who I believe to be from Lorraine. There are a few rumors about these two, a few things I have found, and an unfortunate murder which got into the papers and left something of a trail, although how reliable that trail is who knows, papers being what they are, upset people talking to reporters being what they are, etc. I am pretty much at a loss trying to figure out exactly when they immigrated and exactly from where, and am not sure where to start. My first name is Jean Joseph Victor RENAUT, also spelled in various records or coming up in searches as Renault, Renaud, Rennat, Rannat, Ranant,Renot, Reynot and other variations I am sure you can all anticipate. Several sources lead to him being 52 in about 1880. I have him in two enumerations of the 1870 census, the 1880, naturalization index, various newspaper citings, in the index to NYC births as the father of three children, and then nothing certain. He lived in Manhattan. I do not know when or where he died. One of the NY Newspapers lists the origins of the murderer and Victor, and states that Victor was from Champagne and the murderer from Lorraine, but I suspect they may have reversed these two. My second name is Henriette or Harriette (both also spelled a million ways and the two first names are used pretty much interchangeably)RENAUT, nee Theuret/Theirret/Courot. I have her married to Victor in the 1870 and 1880 census, I know where she is buried, and when and how she died. I got those three spellings of her maiden name from the records of her children's births that I found and mentioned above. The NY Times states in one article that she was a native of the "Meurthe" region. My mother recalls that my great grandfather was from "Alsace-Lorraine" and that he spoke both French and German. He was not her ancestor, but she did know him personally before his death. My aunt, his grandaughter, states that he was from Paris. I have no evidence either way on that, but there is also another relative on that side in that generation who I know came from Paris, and that may or may not have gotten confused. The possible marriage I found is on Family Search in France Marriages 1546-1924 and is listed as between "Jean Victor Reynet" and "Henriette Bonnet" in Aulhon, Ardeche, France. I have no idea at all where that is. The two people in this record are almost exactly ten years older than the two I have listed elsewhere. I don't know if that is too much of a difference to be credible. On the other hand, in Germans to America I did find a "Henriette Theunas" who is only a few years older than she is "supposed" to be. There is no way to figure out if she is definitely my person or not, and no town listed for her. Any guidance any one can give me as to where to look next would be helpful. Renaut is not, even considering its variants, a common name in the NYC area, which has been some help. I have checked NYCity directories, I have found many of their children in later years, but no one who is certainly Victor. I have checked Italiangen.org for death records and do not find him there. Any help or suggestions at all would be deeply appreciated. Theres -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Brian, You make some very good points. Luckily, in this particular instance, the older possibility was the Uncle of the younger. Therefore, a little bit of assumption could be made. That being said, I still would like to know for sure which one it was.  Steve ________________________________ From: Stephan Wall <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 7:25:25 PM Subject: Re: [A-L] Help with another record please I looked at a later birth index for Huttendorf and realized that the godmother's maiden name was Gangloff and not Ganytot. Steve   ________________________________ From: Stephan Wall <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 7:03:38 PM Subject: Re: [A-L] Help with another record please I am no expert but, here is a rough translation of the birth record: Today the 5th of March 1710, was born and baptized, Anna, legitimate daughter of Joannis Jung and Anna Eberhard, who were married in Huttendorf, the godfather is the respectable youngman Michel Bilels, son of Christian Bilels, a citizen, and true godmother the modest maiden (no name entered?) legitimate daughter of Joannis Ganytots, a citizen. I would love to see a revised translation from someone a little more knowlegeable with latin. Steve ________________________________ From: pat1030 <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 5:05:20 PM Subject: [A-L] Help with another record please Archives Départementales du Bas-Rhin (http://archives.bas-rhin.fr) Huttendorf, BMS, 1636-1717, 3E 214/1 - Image 36 Child of Jean Jung and Anna Eberhard?? Thank you! -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm  ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm  ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm  ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks for your explanation. For many years I had always thought my fathers fathers side of the family came from the Alsace-Lorraine area located in Germany near Trier and the Moselle River. To be more exact, they were primarily from Borg in the 1700's and 1800s and even the 1900s. Borg is in Germany near the Luxembourg, France, and Belgium borders. Some ancestors lived in Orscholz, Germany. My great grandmother came from Rettel, France which was near the Moselle River and Borg, Germany. My grandfather and great grand parents immigrated to the US in the 1870's. Question: Is it still correct to say my father's father's German ancestors came from Alsace-Lorraine area? That is how I had identified my German roots. I realize Borg is in Saarland, Germany now but was it ever part of France since it is near the border? I guess I'm trying to picture, visualize the part of Europe, Germany, France my fathers fathers ancestors came from and their customs, language and life style. Its a part I identify with most. The Alsace-Lorraine area does have such a rich history going back to the Romans. I understand their is a Roman Villa near Borg. I have a short incomplete Biological Sketch from a Wisconsin paper that says a John Simon born 1826 came to America in 1840 was from Lorraine, Germany. I believe he's my grandmother's, sister's, father-in-law. I don't know the town in Germany he was from. I think he must have identified with Alsace-Lorraine area. But, my grandfather met my grandmother in the US, her side of the family is from Bacharach, Henschhausen,Oberheimbach, Prussia near the Rhein River. What is interesting regarding these separate Germany families is: The German families that live near the Moselle River and France have short last names and the townes such as Borg, Bitburg, Orscholz all have fewer syllables. Occupation: Wagon maker. Catholic. Compare to another side of my German relatives who lived in Bacharach, Henschhausen and Oberheimbachnear near the Rhein River, they as well as the townes had longer names with more syllables and had a more German sounding name. Occupation; Music teacher. Most were probably Catholic? Even though these two family groups all come from Germany they seem to have different type of names, location, occupation and maybe religion.. The history is interesting. Alice [email protected] wrote: > To answer your question, no. > > A more detailed answer below. > > Etienne and Ewald will probably correct me, and give a better answer. But > here goes anyway. > > Alsace and Lorraine are, and for all practical purposes always have been > separate (not strictly true). Alsace is a conglomeration of many small > fiefdoms. Parts have been added and subtracted over the years. The > respective parts have changed hands from one dynasty to the next and > within one dynasty. Lines changed and re-changed, and re-changed again. > > Alsace was predominantly a Germanic speaking region. Lorraine spoke > different dialects, some more closely related to French. If you want to > really generalize. I can hardly do justice to the diversity in the region > in a short email. And besides, I'm hardly qualified to lecture on the > subject. > > Rettel is in Moselle in the Lorraine region today. > > Depending on how far back you want to count Lorraine extended up into > modern day Belgium and the Netherlands. It would have included at least > part of Saarland and the Rhineland-Pfalz. Trier and Bitburg, et al were > within the bounds of Lorraine (Lotharingia). Once upon a time. Lorraine > shrunk repeatedly over time. > > But by the 14th Century, all bets are off. Nor was the Rhine always a > dividing line. There really is no short, easy way to describe this > volatile region. > > Brian > > On Tue, July 5, 2011 8:24 pm, Alice wrote: > >> Have the BORDERS of Alsace-Lorraine stayed the same through-out the >> years? I realize it has gone back and forth between France and Germany >> and now it's part of France. For some reason I had always thought my >> fathers side of the family came from the Alsace-Lorraine region. >> However, my fathers side of the family were German speaking and came >> from the Trier area of, Borg, Orscholz, Eft, and Bitburg. Were they >> part of Alsace- Lorraine during the 1700s and 1800s? Is Rettel, France >> part of Alsace-Lorraine now? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Alice >> >> >> Etienne Herrbach wrote: >> >>> Hello Michelle, >>> >>> welcome in Alsace (not Alscase...) >>> >>> Otherwise, it's (almost) correct: commune / canton / arrondissement / >>> département / région >>> >>> - Croethwiller >>> - Reimerswiller merged into Betschdorf in 1972. >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betschdorf >>> >>> Etienne >>> >>> >>> >>> Le 3 juil. 11 à 13:51,<[email protected]> >>> <[email protected] >>> > a écrit : >>> >>> >>> >>>> I need some help with Alsace place names. I want to make sure I get >>>> the >>>> jurisdictions correct. I normally work with US and German place >>>> names and >>>> this is a new area for me. >>>> >>>> Betschdorf, Soultz-sous-Forêts, Wissembourg, Bas-Rhin, Alscace, France >>>> Drachenbronn-Birlenbach, Soultz-sous-Forêts, Wissembourg, Bas-Rhin, >>>> Alscace, >>>> France >>>> Lobsann, Soultz-sous-Forêts, Wissembourg, Bas-Rhin, Alscace, France >>>> Memmelshoffen, Soultz-sous-Forêts, Wissembourg, Bas-Rhin, Alscace, >>>> France >>>> Cröthwiller, Seltz, Wissembourg, Bas-Rhin, Alscace, France >>>> Reimerswiller, Soultz-sous-Forêts, Wissembourg, Bas-Rhin, Alscace, >>>> France >>>> (I am not sure about this one. I see it on the map but the internet >>>> will >>>> not tell me what jurisdiction it is in) >>>> >>>> Michele Lewis, Staff Genealogy >>>> McDuffie Mirror >>>> Thomson, McDuffie Co, GA >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> > >

Re: "I thought I had heard that during the 1800's when a person wanted to move from a particular town, they had to get permission from the Mayor to do so. Does anyone know if this is so and secondly was a record of this move kept at the town hall?" Requiring official permission to leave was long-standing policy in Germanic areas, particularly the Palatine Electorate, and often a fee was imposed. (Fees would be waived for the poor and other undesirables.) But it was typically the town council who decided as a body, not the Mayor alone; a record was kept as part of official minutes. I believe the procedure was called "manumission". There was a 1700s instance of a Palatine family whose son left for America, without permission, apparently to avoid military conscription. The family was fined to the extent of all their possessions. Speaking of conscription, Germanic areas also had the practice of registering males for the draft at birth. (It made the boys easier to find when they reached military age.) Even if your ancestor didn't serve in the military, his birth might be in those records. Also required was permission to take up residence in the town. Just passing through required a police permit and payment of another fee. In other words, "Show me your papers!" had real meaning. -rt_/)

Hi Theres, You mentioned getting the children's birth records. Are their death records available as well? My second great-grandmother had 12 siblings. Two were born in Ohio before birth records were required there, so no help there. Nine others died in the US, but only one death certificate mentioned the names of the towns from which their parents hailed. I would also pursue church records, especially for the children's baptisms. Start with a map of the area and look for churches within walking distance. Many of the records are extant even if the church is no longer standing. Did any of the couple's children die as infants? Those records would be worth investigating. You really don't sound confused. :o) I get the feeling you've explored a lot of resources that unfortunately just haven't panned out. If you can narrow down the size of the your geographical options, maybe things will start falling into place for you. Take another look at those kids. One of them may hold the key. Laura On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 8:30 AM, [email protected] < [email protected]> wrote: > Hello all. Please forgive the length of this post. I am detailing my > confusion in the hopes that some kind soul will point out something obvious > that I am not seeing for the trees. > > I have two immigrant ancestors who I believe to be from Lorraine. There > are a few rumors about these two, a few things I have found, and an > unfortunate murder which got into the papers and left something of a trail, > although how reliable that trail is who knows, papers being what they are, > upset people talking to reporters being what they are, etc. I am pretty > much at a loss trying to figure out exactly when they immigrated and > exactly from where, and am not sure where to start. >

You sound as if you've done some thorough searching already. This may be useless information, but perhaps not. 1) Have you been to the NYC Archives on 31 Chambers St., Manhattan. If not, I'd go there and try to find more records. 2) Did you get, and record, the addresses from the directories and census records? Find local churches from that period and try to track down baptisms and marriages at the likely churches. It's a lot of legwork, but if you find something it may be worth it. It'll be harder as you may not have an indication of the faith of these people. 3) On the liklihood of people having close, or the same names being a match. I am currently tracking no less than 4 women named Maria Magdalena Litsch,only one of whom *may* be my ancestor. All around the same age, two within a month of each other! And also 4 Anna Maria Widemer women, one of whom is my ancestor. Certainly not common names in the USA. But sadly all too common in the town I am searching, and were it not for the fact I knew the town, at least one of the names is really too darn common in a 75 mile radius of the town and probably even farther. 3.a.) The moral of that story being, our ancestors were less than creative in naming children, and they had lots of children. Thus ensuring cousins up the wazoo, all having the same name. Because the children were named after ancestors. 3.b.) Henriette sounds like an all to common name for a woman in France in the 1800s. Bonnet, I don't want to even go there on how common it sounds. It could be your ancestor. I could be related to the last czar of Russia, too. But this is not about what could be, but what you can prove. I'm not saying it isn't worth exploring and digging deeper, it can be easier to track forward than backward. But you want to have a good reason for doing so (maybe just my opinion). Exhaust your research in NY first. The censuses should give an idea of when they came over. Pour over the ships' registers from the National Archives. You may get lucky, or at least confirm a date of immigration, and perhaps a route. The route may give a clue. My grandmother swore up and down she was born in Paris. We got her to admit once she wasn't, but she still got it wrong. I found her records anyway. But I knew a few places to look, and got lucky after just my third try. My gr-gr-grandfather is another story. The ghost who walked. There are other things you can do on the European side, but I don't have them bookmarked. They would be in the archives of the mailing list, which you could search. But someone else will probably point you there. There is also the cdhf, which might have some useful clues. http://cdhf.net/fr/index.php But you seem to be seeing the trees fine. HTH, Brian On Wed, July 6, 2011 8:30 am, [email protected] wrote: > Hello all. Please forgive the length of this post. I am detailing my > confusion in the hopes that some kind soul will point out something > obvious > that I am not seeing for the trees.