Rettel is located on the Mosel River near Germany and Luxembourg. I call it a border town. What/who is a vicar in a monastery? Is he the head of the monastery? Is he a Monk or Priest? RETTEL: Extracts from the book of the Bishopric Trier archives; "Siedlung und Pfarroraganisation im altem Erzbistum" (Settlement and parish organization in the old Archbishopric Trier). ...The church, St. Laurentius and the Abby of St. Sixtus in Rettel. According to the saying, the founder of Rettel was Effetia, who is supposed to have been either a sister of Carl the Great, the historic search knows nothing; or who could also have been a sister of Hildegard, the second spouse of Carl the Great. The monastery, a woman's monastery at its origins, is supposed to have been consecrated in honor of Pope Sixtus by pope Leo III, who was in Germany in 799 and 804. There is a Carolingian foundation. ...The gentlemen/sires of the near Burg Sierck, probably as loan from the Dukes of Lorraine, had residence over Rettel in 1193. The abbey seems to have been destroyed at the beginning of the 15th century. On intervention of Margaretha, the wife of Duke Karl II of Lorraine, the abbey was given in 1431 to the Carthusian monks. ...The monastery building was transferred 1467 to the Dechanten/dekant of the country chapter of Perl which should form a Klerikergemeinschaft/cleric's society with 5 ecclesiastics/clergymen. ...The Visitation/Inspection Report from 1743 offers following details for the parish of Rettel: ...The Carthusian Order was, in reason of its exclusive right on the territory, responsible for the choir and nave of the church. The Prior of the Carthusians, a vicar who lived in the Carthisian building, had the patronage right and command, to take care of the souls. ...During the re-organization of the church in French times (1802), Rettel stayed as a parish (succursale) of the canton Parish of Sierck. One of my great grandmother's came from Rettel, a small Lorraine village, now France.. Alice

B - baptismes (baptisms) S - sépulcres (burials) I think you mean PM - publication de marriage (marriage banns) At 07:05 PM 7/12/2011, Lucy Battersby wrote: >Hello, I know that N stands for Naissances, M for Mariages,and D >for Deces. TD I think is Table Decenaire (sp?) but can someone >explain the letters B, S, BN in the volumes from the protestant >parish? Thank you. >Lucy >-- >Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: >http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello, I know that N stands for Naissances, M for Mariages,and D for Deces. TD I think is Table Decenaire (sp?) but can someone explain the letters B, S, BN in the volumes from the protestant parish? Thank you. Lucy

They don't appear to have been married in Olwisheim, Bas Rhin around 1880 either.  "I love a good mystery to solve, so I went through all of the Haut-Rhin, Alsace communes that could have been this "Alwisher" but, found nothing. I also searched through the Alsace-Lorraine, France Citizenship Declarations?from 1872 and found nothing.?"

Thank you Dave & Steve for your help. Steve you are right, it is Jacob Hartman from Walnut, Madison Iowa. I have been unable to locate a passenger list with any of these Hartmans on it. The story on this family is a little complicated. Katherine (Geilke Catharina Huischen) Jacob's first wife, was a widow living in Ostfriesland with her 3 daughters from her first husband, Bertha, Elise & Anna Maria Peters. Jacob is said to have gone to Katherine's home and asking for work. Katherine fed him while Jacob would work on their farm and Jacob kept coming back and Katherine kept feeding him. Jacob & Katherine marry (I am still unsure where) in 1878 (Katherine was from Roggenstede, Ostfriesland). They have a child Minnie (Helen) Hartman in July 1880 born in Germany. The story goes that Jacob stowed away on a ship to the United States, and after 3 days, figuring the ship would not take him back, came out of hiding and ended up working on the ship for his passage. Once in the U.S. Jacob eventually went to South America to help build roads there to earn enough money to send for his family. The family ended up collecting their own money and came to America around 1883. I have looked for the Hartman/Peters names on lists on Ancestry with no luck. I've also looked for Geilke instead of Katherine/Catherine, etc. and Helen instead of Minnie. The family eventually lived in Carthage, Hancock County Illinois and Minnesota before moving to Iowa, then back to Carthage. I have had a friend of mine from Germany try to help me determine what Alwisher might really be with no luck. I continue to search for a marriage record for Jacob & Katherine. Thank you again, I appreciate everyone's help and suggestions. Paula Hartman

Paula, I am not sure if you are familiar with http://en.geneanet.org/  It is a free genealogy site that is very popular in Europe. If you haven't done so already, sign up and try it out. Search for "Huischen" and you will find some family trees that contain Geilke Catharina Huischen along with her parents in Roggenstede. I suggest contacting the owners of these trees, translating if necessary. There is a good chance that Jacob and Catherine were married there. The owners of these trees may be able to tell you how to find out. Good Luck Steve ________________________________ From: LARRY and PAULA HARTMAN <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, July 12, 2011 9:45:11 AM Subject: [A-L] Hartmann Thank you Dave & Steve for your help. Steve you are right, it is Jacob Hartman from Walnut, Madison Iowa. I have been unable to locate a passenger list with any of these Hartmans on it. The story on this family is a little complicated. Katherine (Geilke Catharina Huischen) Jacob's first wife, was a widow living in Ostfriesland with her 3 daughters from her first husband, Bertha, Elise & Anna Maria Peters. Jacob is said to have gone to Katherine's home and asking for work. Katherine fed him while Jacob would work on their farm and Jacob kept coming back and Katherine kept feeding him. Jacob & Katherine marry (I am still unsure where) in 1878 (Katherine was from Roggenstede, Ostfriesland). They have a child Minnie (Helen) Hartman in July 1880 born in Germany. The story goes that Jacob stowed away on a ship to the United States, and after 3 days, figuring the ship would not take him back, came out of hiding and ended up working on the ship for his passage. Once in the U.S. Jacob eventually went to South America to help build roads there to earn enough money to send for his family. ! The family ended up collecting their own money and came to America around 1883. I have looked for the Hartman/Peters names on lists on Ancestry with no luck. I've also looked for Geilke instead of Katherine/Catherine, etc. and Helen instead of Minnie. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I believe it is Jacob Hartmann of Walnut, Madison, Iowa. If I am correct the1900 Federal Census has Jacob's father born in Germany and mother born in Germany. The 1910 Fed Census has father France and mother Germany. Both census' have Jacob as being born in Germany. Since Alsace belonged to Germany for both of these Census years I was unable to determine if he was indeed from Alsace. The 1900 Census said they were married 20 years prior which would have been 1880 and that they came to the USA in 1883. This would mean they married in Europe. Their marriage record would most likely have the exact town of birth. Did you ever locate Jacob and Catherine on a passenger list coming to US? It would be interesting to see what Port they left from.    I love a good mystery to solve, so I went through all of the Haut-Rhin, Alsace communes that could have been this "Alwisher" but, found nothing. I also searched through the Alsace-Lorraine, France Citizenship Declarations from 1872 and found nothing.  What other clues do you have? Steve ________________________________ From: David Fetherston <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Mon, July 11, 2011 11:32:06 AM Subject: Re: [A-L] Hartmann Based on my past experience with US records. Most showed Germany for my Alsace family instead of France which was technically correct at the time in a few instances. If they showed France and Germany in different listings I would certainly  think they were from Alsace or Lorraine. That would have helped me tremendously even though I knew the family likely originated in Pfaffenhoffen.     You didn't list which census had them listed as from Germany, but I would still consider Alsace. Perhaps including that info and their appoximate dates (or actual dates if you have them) would help. Sometimes the obituaries will have the town name even if spelled wrong.     For my ancestor Engenheim, Germany was listed, but I could not find an Engenheim, Germany. It turned out to be Ingenheim, Alsace, but the birth date listed was wrong.  Regards, Dave Subject: Re: [A-L] Hartmann To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 8 Jul 2011 18:25:32 +0000 LARRY and PAULA HARTMAN <[email protected]> wrote: > I am trying to find out where Jacob Hartmann was born and his parents names. > A U.S. census says Jacob was born in Germany (wasn't Alsace-Lorraine > considered France at the time?) and that his father was born in France. My ancestors came to the US from Alsace in 1846, 1856 and in 1872. Every census they changed their answers (as Alsace changed ownership). First they told the enumerator they were from France, then the next census they said they were from Germany, then France, etc. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Etienne and/or Ewald or any knowledgable lister, Can you give me just a bit on the Bas-Rhin Alsace rural economic situation between 1830 and 1860 or point me in the right direction., please. It seems there were some economic problems for families in at least one commune, but the information was vague - number of indigent families but no information who or why. Also I have no idea what my farmer ancestors were raising - grain crops, sheep, cattle? And what were they doing with what they raised? While googling I found the following which is not apropos to what I want but interesting. http://pi.library.yorku.ca/ojs/index.php/lh/article/viewFile/5452/4647 Mothers and Breadwinners: Gender and Working Class Identity in Alsace, 1821-1936 David Allen Harvey This is also helpful as to emigration that we have mentioned. The Emigration Book that Sharon has is there but there are others. https://wiki.familysearch.org/en/France_Emigration_and_Immigration#Le_Havre_Passenger_Index Thanks as always, Gloria

Based on my past experience with US records. Most showed Germany for my Alsace family instead of France which was technically correct at the time in a few instances. If they showed France and Germany in different listings I would certainly  think they were from Alsace or Lorraine. That would have helped me tremendously even though I knew the family likely originated in Pfaffenhoffen.     You didn't list which census had them listed as from Germany, but I would still consider Alsace. Perhaps including that info and their appoximate dates (or actual dates if you have them) would help. Sometimes the obituaries will have the town name even if spelled wrong.     For my ancestor Engenheim, Germany was listed, but I could not find an Engenheim, Germany. It turned out to be Ingenheim, Alsace, but the birth date listed was wrong.  Regards, Dave Subject: Re: [A-L] Hartmann To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 8 Jul 2011 18:25:32 +0000 LARRY and PAULA HARTMAN <[email protected]> wrote: > I am trying to find out where Jacob Hartmann was born and his parents names. > A U.S. census says Jacob was born in Germany (wasn't Alsace-Lorraine > considered France at the time?) and that his father was born in France. My ancestors came to the US from Alsace in 1846, 1856 and in 1872. Every census they changed their answers (as Alsace changed ownership). First they told the enumerator they were from France, then the next census they said they were from Germany, then France, etc. -- Todd Carnes <[email protected]>

geb===maiden name ===still used today==== common on grave stones Rollie -----Original Message----- From: Kathy Oberrecht [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 3:58 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [A-L] geb They use it to list the maiden name.... > Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 11:10:27 -0700 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [A-L] geb > > Short for "geboren," I think - "born." > > Sharon A Waechter > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "pam fisher" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2011 1:07:07 PM > Subject: [A-L] geb > > Quick question...have recently made contact with someone and was able to get my hands on some old church records. All the womens names have geb used in between first and middle name. Example: Ernestine geb Busse. What does geb mean and why was it used? > > Thank You, > Pam > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Etienne, A million thank you's for your excellent translation. I know it was very hard and time consuming due to the handwriting. Your translating skills are unsurpassed. The part about the three publications is what I was most interested to see translated. I take it that these "publications" were announcements made at the end of Mass every week? Regarding the Seppenhofen records, I have been going through them with a fine tooth comb. Looking for any references to either Franz which would help me to rule out one or the other. I have also purchased a Family Book that chronicles the history of Loffingen and includes a great deal of info on this family. I should be receiving the book this week. Hopefully, it will shed some light on my dilemna. Always Grateful Steve   ________________________________ From: Etienne Herrbach <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sun, July 10, 2011 5:31:49 AM Subject: Re: [A-L] Help with another record please Steve, Here the transcription and translation.  The handwriting is not easy. Hodie 21: febr: 1718 a me infrascripto sacro m[atri-] monii vinculo copulati sunt honesti adolescentes Franciscus KLUNG ex Seppenhoven ex comitate Fursten[berg] oriundus et pudica virgo Maria Eva BECHLERin ex Dimbstahl : factis tamen prius tribus presentib(us) --nibus nullo(que) detecto canonico impedimento Testes adfuerunt P[etrinus?] KIFFER praetor ex Dimbsthal et Christianus MEŸER PK signum praetoris         -J Parent Christian Meÿer Today 21st Feb. 1718, by me undersigned, in the sacred link of  marriage were united the honest "adolescents" (*) Franciscus KLUNG  from Seppenhofen in County Fürstenberg originating, and modest virgin  Maria Eva BECHLERin  from Dimbstahl : having made three publications  detected no canonical impeachment Whitnesses were P[etrinus?] (**)  KIFFER "prévôt" from Dimbsthal and Christianus MEŸER PK sign of the "prévôt" [= head of a rural community] (*) "honesti adolescentes" is plural -- singular would be "honestus  adolescens" (**) Peter/PIerre would be "Petrus, not Petrinus I understand your dilemna with two homonyms in Steppenhofen.  I think  the solution should be in the Steppenhofen records (death records ?  Franz Klunk present as whitness, etc.).  Good luck. Etienne Le 4 juil. 11 à 19:26, Stephan Wall a écrit : > Etienne, > > Your insight into the translation of "Adolescens" being a single  > man, whatever > his age, is very interesting. (...) > It would be great if you could look at that marriage record again  > for me. -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm  ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Steve, Here the transcription and translation. The handwriting is not easy. Hodie 21: febr: 1718 a me infrascripto sacro m[atri-] monii vinculo copulati sunt honesti adolescentes Franciscus KLUNG ex Seppenhoven ex comitate Fursten[berg] oriundus et pudica virgo Maria Eva BECHLERin ex Dimbstahl : factis tamen prius tribus presentib(us) --nibus nullo(que) detecto canonico impedimento Testes adfuerunt P[etrinus?] KIFFER praetor ex Dimbsthal et Christianus MEŸER PK signum praetoris -J Parent Christian Meÿer Today 21st Feb. 1718, by me undersigned, in the sacred link of marriage were united the honest "adolescents" (*) Franciscus KLUNG from Seppenhofen in County Fürstenberg originating, and modest virgin Maria Eva BECHLERin from Dimbstahl : having made three publications detected no canonical impeachment Whitnesses were P[etrinus?] (**) KIFFER "prévôt" from Dimbsthal and Christianus MEŸER PK sign of the "prévôt" [= head of a rural community] (*) "honesti adolescentes" is plural -- singular would be "honestus adolescens" (**) Peter/PIerre would be "Petrus, not Petrinus I understand your dilemna with two homonyms in Steppenhofen. I think the solution should be in the Steppenhofen records (death records ? Franz Klunk present as whitness, etc.). Good luck. Etienne Le 4 juil. 11 à 19:26, Stephan Wall a écrit : > Etienne, > > Your insight into the translation of "Adolescens" being a single > man, whatever > his age, is very interesting. (...) > It would be great if you could look at that marriage record again > for me. > Marmoutier M., 1685-1761, Image 43/152. I would love to get your > full > translation of the record since I cannot make out all of the words. > Although , > I feel I have made progress at translating these records, I > obviously have a > long way to go. > > Always Grateful > Steve

They use it to list the maiden name.... > Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 11:10:27 -0700 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [A-L] geb > > Short for "geboren," I think - "born." > > Sharon A Waechter > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "pam fisher" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2011 1:07:07 PM > Subject: [A-L] geb > > Quick question...have recently made contact with someone and was able to get my hands on some old church records. All the womens names have geb used in between first and middle name. Example: Ernestine geb Busse. What does geb mean and why was it used? > > Thank You, > Pam > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Short for "geboren," I think - "born." Sharon A Waechter ----- Original Message ----- From: "pam fisher" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2011 1:07:07 PM Subject: [A-L] geb Quick question...have recently made contact with someone and was able to get my hands on some old church records. All the womens names have geb used in between first and middle name. Example: Ernestine geb Busse. What does geb mean and why was it used? Thank You, Pam -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On Fri, 8 Jul 2011 18:25:32 +0000 LARRY and PAULA HARTMAN <[email protected]> wrote: > I am trying to find out where Jacob Hartmann was born and his parents names. > A U.S. census says Jacob was born in Germany (wasn't Alsace-Lorraine > considered France at the time?) and that his father was born in France. My ancestors came to the US from Alsace in 1846, 1856 and in 1872. Every census they changed their answers (as Alsace changed ownership). First they told the enumerator they were from France, then the next census they said they were from Germany, then France, etc. -- Todd Carnes <[email protected]>

Hello Ralph, sorry but the Rhine River has no connection at all to Lorraine, nor is it the northern border of Alsace. It forms the eastern border of Alsace from Basel to Lauterbourg. Then the Rhine continues its course northwards into Germany (Palatinate, Rhineland...). Etienne Le 7 juil. 11 à 19:51, Ralph Taylor a écrit : > We need to take account of the most significant geographical > feature, the > gigantic Rhine River. It forms the northern border of Lorraine and the > northern and part of the eastern borders of Alsace. The significance > of the > Rhine River barrier is demonstrated by the fact that Caesar's > conquest of > Gaul (France) was stopped there. > > -rt_/)

While this is very interesting I think we need to stick to Alsace-Lorraine and the knowledge of our two Alsatian natives, who are very knowledgeable and/or point us in the right direction. I have just come back from the US where I had microfilm access to my Baden ancestors and yes, "burgher und bauer". I also like the book mentioned before "Our Daily Bread" precisely because the author deals with that area of my Baden ancestor. But whether it extends to Alsatian villages, I am not sure. In an area, Bas-Rhin, that was too often overrun, pillaged, burned down, I wonder if it was relevant who was and who wasn't a "burgher". And the early records to my Alsatian ancestors I have researched, often it only mentioned, "ackerman". Gloria On Jul 2, 2011, at 12:02 AM, Aida Kraus wrote: > Brian, I am not familiar with the System in Alsace Lorraine, because my > expertise is the Austrian Hungarian Bohemian lands.

Hello, I am new to this list and am hoping I can receive some guidance. My husband's great grandfather, Jacob Hartmann, is believed to have been born in Alsace-Lorraine on March 4, 1851. His obituary however, states that he was born in Alwisher on the Rhine. Is there a name place in Alsace-Lorraine that would maybe sound like Alwisher phonetically? I am trying to find out where Jacob Hartmann was born and his parents names. A U.S. census says Jacob was born in Germany (wasn't Alsace-Lorraine considered France at the time?) and that his father was born in France. He married a widow named Katherine Huischen who lived in Roggenstede, Ostfriesland. Any and all help is greatly appreciated. Thank you, Paula Hartman Anamosa,Iowa

To be more precise, the Rhine begins in the Swiss Alps, flows down northerly to the border of Switzerland, Germany and Austria, turns west making the Northern border between Switzerland and Germany, turns north and makes the eastern border of Haut-Rhin and Bas-Rhin (likely from which the names derive), and finally empties out over the plains of the Netherlands past Utrecht and Rotterdam into the North Sea. I meant to post a correction on that too. Not that my geography is that great. Although in the distant past the Rhine wasn't a strict border between Alsace and Baden. People on both sides of the Rhine are probably more closely connected culturally than they are to other regions within their own countries. But, I've not put a lot of time into researching or proving that. Just my anecdotal observations from roots on both sides of the Rhine valley. There was another error in that post, I believe, making a comment that the Rhine was the extent of the Roman Empire. While the Empire fluctuated over time, it extended from Portugal to Turkey and Asia to Arabia and around the entire Mediterranean. North to Hadrian's Wall (and slightly beyond for a few years) in England. They never seemed to extend their influence into Scotland or Ireland. All of Alsace, and much (all?) of Lorraine was within the Empire, the Northern Rhine, in Germany was a line limiting the Empire, but the Empire extended beyond the Rhine on it's southern portion and they had towns and defense lines there. Baden, Baden itself was a Roman town. Much, if not all, of Southern Baden east of the Rhine was within the Empire. And you can still find Roman roads and structures there today. Brian On Fri, July 8, 2011 2:42 pm, Etienne Herrbach wrote: > Hello Ralph, > > sorry but the Rhine River has no connection at all to Lorraine, nor > is it the northern border of Alsace. It forms the eastern border of > Alsace from Basel to Lauterbourg. Then the Rhine continues its course > northwards into Germany (Palatinate, Rhineland...). > > Etienne

I would like to see a map of Haut-Alsace-Loraine in 1918 On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Etienne Herrbach < [email protected]> wrote: > Hello Ralph, > > sorry but the Rhine River has no connection at all to Lorraine, nor > is it the northern border of Alsace. It forms the eastern border of > Alsace from Basel to Lauterbourg. Then the Rhine continues its course > northwards into Germany (Palatinate, Rhineland...). > > Etienne > > > Le 7 juil. 11 à 19:51, Ralph Taylor a écrit : > > > We need to take account of the most significant geographical > > feature, the > > gigantic Rhine River. It forms the northern border of Lorraine and the > > northern and part of the eastern borders of Alsace. The significance > > of the > > Rhine River barrier is demonstrated by the fact that Caesar's > > conquest of > > Gaul (France) was stopped there. > > > > -rt_/) > > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >