Hello everyone, I have been stumped for some time over the illegitimate birth of my 2nd Great Grandmother and I want to hear what you all think.  The family was from Lemberg in the Moselle Department of Lorraine. The father, Pierre Kriegel, born in 1828, was himself illegitimate. The record of his birth in the Parish Register listed him as "fils natural" as opposed to illegitimate, with no father listed. What is the significance of the term "fils natural" ? Why wouldn't they use "Illegitimate" as I have seen in so many other Catholic Parishes? It is what happened next that really confused me. In 1851 Pierre fathered twins with Marguerite Schneider. The twins are listed in the Lemberg records as "fils natural", and given the surname Schneider. Pierre is listed in the records as being the father. The couple went on to have my Great Grandmother in 1853 and another son in 1855, both with the surname Schneider, and listed the same way in the records. Then in 1856 Pierre Kriegel and Marguerite Schneider finally married. In the marriage record, the church legitimized all 4 children that were born prior to the marriage. It seems very unlikely to me that the Catholic Church, let alone the local citizens, would have been ok with all of these illegitimate births. I would think that they would have been ostracized from the community. Could there have been another reason they were not married earlier?  Could the reason have to do with Pierre being illegitimate himself? I would love to hear what you all think about this story. Thank You All Steve Wall

Hi Paul, the date is 24 Frimaire 9; French Revolution Calendary. The month Frimaire begins on Nov. 22, so this date is December 15, 1800. Regards from Germany Bernd [email protected] schrieb: > Folks, > > I cannot make out the month in a record. > > The problem month is here, in date.jpg: > > https://public.me.com/uaine > > Could someone perhaps read this date from 1800? > > It is 24<some month> 9 > > Thanks. > > best, > Paul

Hi Paul, the date is 24 Frimaire 9; French Revolution Calendary. The month Frimaire begins on Nov. 22, so this date is December 15, 1800. Regards from Germany Bernd [email protected] schrieb: > Folks, > > I cannot make out the month in a record. > > The problem month is here, in date.jpg: > > https://public.me.com/uaine > > Could someone perhaps read this date from 1800? > > It is 24<some month> 9 > > Thanks. > > best, > Paul >

Hello, I'd like to make an observation regarding the registration of twin births.  I knew my father was a twin because my grandmother told me and it was widely known.  My father's twin died in infancy.  When researching my father's birth in church records in Poland (but this could apply to any birth record),  I found that his twin was actually born two days after my dad.  His birth was recorded separately from my dad's.   After some researching online, I discovered that a twin could be born many days or even weeks after the first birth.  If it had occurred much later and I didn't know for a fact that there was a twin, it may have thrown off my research. Anyway, I thought I'd share that little tidbit with everyone.  So, keep in mind all the interesting facts that crop up in genealogy that could make our research a little more challenging.  Daniela   ________________________________ From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thu, July 14, 2011 9:25:17 AM Subject: Re: [A-L] Recording birth of twins in 1826?? There was no standard way of recording the birth of twins in church parish records. I can't speak for civil records. I haven't had much in the way of twins in Alsace. However in Baden, just over the Rhine, there were basically two ways I find them recorded. One, both twins listed together on the same record. Even if one died the same day, in which case it indicated so in the record or stated the child as a stillbirth. Two, separately in two records. Again if died the same day it would say "born and died", or "born at xx:xx and died at yy:yy", or stillborn. I even have a record for triplets, all in a single record. I would imagine even the civil records in Alsace would be similar. They may have had rules, but there's always one in the crowd who will do it the way they want to anyway. It's inconceivable that if a child was a twin, it wouldn't be noted in the record or that only one was recorded, unless the family wanted to hide it. My take is, if you find one of the supposed twins and not the other, unless you have some other authoritative record calling one child or the other  a twin it's just not so. Brian On Thu, July 14, 2011 7:10 am, shill wrote: > Hi, > > Can anyone shed light on how twin births were usually recorded?  Would > they > have been listed in same entry or separately? > -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm  ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks so much for everyone's input---Linda, Rollie, Brian, Gloria, Nicole, Leppert. I truly appreciate the feedback! Rollie, the PIERO surname is especially prominent in the areas of Plain Township & Canton city of Stark County, Ohio although it is found spelled many different ways. Magdalena Richards is the americanized version of Madelaine Richert. Gloria, thanks for the wonderful website for early Catholic records in Ohio. The Theresa Louisa Piero you found bapt. in 1828 helps me narrow further the span of her birth---plus is another resource for many of my other family lines. THANK YOU! Sue > > Can anyone shed light on how twin births were usually recorded? Would they > have been listed in same entry or separately? > > > > > > >

Thanks to all who commented on this. I appreciate the "reading" help. Paul On Dé Sathairn, 16 Iúil, 2011, at 00:29, Bernd Krause wrote: > Hi Paul, > > the date is 24 Frimaire 9; French Revolution Calendary. The month > Frimaire begins on Nov. 22, so this date is December 15, 1800. > > Regards from Germany > Bernd > > > > [email protected] schrieb: >> Folks, >> >> I cannot make out the month in a record. >> >> The problem month is here, in date.jpg: >> >> https://public.me.com/uaine >> >> Could someone perhaps read this date from 1800? >> >> It is 24<some month> 9 >> >> Thanks. >> >> best, >> Paul >> > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Using a different browser: 24 Frim: 9 = 24 Frimaire IX = 15 Dec 1800 Brian On Fri, July 15, 2011 7:18 pm, [email protected] wrote: > Folks, > > I cannot make out the month in a record. > > The problem month is here, in date.jpg: > > https://public.me.com/uaine > > Could someone perhaps read this date from 1800? > > It is 24 <some month> 9 > > Thanks. > > best, > Paul

I would take a look, but apparently my FireFox 4 browser isn't allowed in. Brian On Fri, July 15, 2011 7:18 pm, [email protected] wrote: > Folks, > > I cannot make out the month in a record. > > The problem month is here, in date.jpg: > > https://public.me.com/uaine > > Could someone perhaps read this date from 1800? > > It is 24 <some month> 9 > > Thanks. > > best, > Paul > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Lucy, it is not Leonard GOEPP's birth record, but that of Anna Maria GOEPP (# 7), born 18 nivose XI, daughter of Johannes G shoemaker and Maria Salomea MECKERT. Whitnesses; Leonard MECKERT, Joh. Jacob HÜTT. Etienne Le 15 juil. 11 à 04:54, Lucy Battersby a écrit : > Hello, > I have found a page in the Archives du Bas-Rhin, but I can not > decipher it, especially as it is most probably in Alsacian dialect > or German. The reference is "Heiligenstein, N, An XI, 4E, 188/1 > (page 3 of 8)". Leonard Goepp died in 1840 and was 39 at the time, > but the records I see for Year X don't seem to have an entry for the > birth of Leonard Goepp (or Go -umlaut-pp). I have found the above > reference Uear XI, but the only words I can decipher are Jahr, > Leonard Goepp, and something that looks like Marie Salome (the name > of another relative, nee Hett). > If someone could give me a translation (even "rough and dirty") I > would be grateful. > Thank you, > Lucy

Paul this looks like 24 Fructidor 9 to me. See the FRC. Dave On 7/15/2011 5:18 PM, [1][email protected] wrote: Folks, I cannot make out the month in a record. The problem month is here, in date.jpg: [2]https://public.me.com/uaine Could someone perhaps read this date from 1800? It is 24 <some month> 9 Thanks. best, Paul References 1. mailto:[email protected] 2. https://public.me.com/uaine

Folks, I cannot make out the month in a record. The problem month is here, in date.jpg: https://public.me.com/uaine Could someone perhaps read this date from 1800? It is 24 <some month> 9 Thanks. best, Paul

Vielen Dank. Paul On Déardaoin, 14 Iúil, 2011, at 09:02, Etienne Herrbach wrote: > Paul, > > -ingen or -ing is common in many parts of the Germanic linguistic area. > > Since you speak German, have a look at this page: > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/-ing > > Etienne > > > Le 14 juil. 11 à 14:20, [email protected] a écrit : > >> Merci. >> >> Does anyone know what the "ingen" suffix means? >> >> Paul >> >> On Dé Céadaoin, 13 Iúil, 2011, at 11:41, Etienne Herrbach wrote: >> >>> Paul, >>> >>> German surnames ending with "inger" usually derive from the name of a >>> place ending with "ingen". >>> >>> E.g. "Kentzinger" means "originating from Kentzingen", etc. >>> >>> In the case of Schwarzinger, there should be a place "Schwarzingen" >>> or >>> "Schwerzingen" somewhere in Germany, Switzerland, or Austria -- but >>> don't know where. >>> >>> I guess Schwarzenegger means "from the place named Schwarzenegg or >>> Schwarzeneck". There is a Schwarzenegg in Switzerland. >>> >>> >>> Etienne >>> >>> >>> >>> Le 13 juil. 11 à 14:48, [email protected] a écrit : >>> >>>> Does anyone know what the surname Schwarzinger means? >>>> >>>> Dark/Black - something? >>>> >>>> Or is it a corruption of Schwarzenegger? Or the other way around? >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> A google search did not help. >>>> >>>> Paul >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: >>> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine- >>> L.htm >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] >>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >>> the body of the message >> >> >> -- >> Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >> the body of the message > > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> If I see the word Calvin in an Alsatian German birth record, coming right after someone's surname, does it mean that they are a Calvinist? > > Thanks. > > best, > Paul

Hi, Take care that there are at least 2 Leonhard GÖPP at that time in Heilig. 1) Johann Leonhard GÖPP, married Anna Maria VOGEL on 21 Pluviôse Year III 2) Leonhard GÖPP, married Maria Salomea HÜTT on 18 Brumaire Year X, according to 'Table des M, 1793-An X, 4E188/10', page 2/4. According to 'Table des N, 1793-An X, 4E188/10', page 3/5, your Johannes Leonhard GÖPP is born on 27 Frimaire Year VIII. See Birth record in Heiligenstein, N, An VIII, 4E188/1, page 4/10 bottom right and following. Charles. Selon Lucy Battersby <[email protected]>: > > Hello, > I have found a page in the Archives du Bas-Rhin, but I can not decipher it, > especially as it is most probably in Alsacian dialect or German. The > reference is "Heiligenstein, N, An XI, 4E, 188/1 (page 3 of 8)". Leonard > Goepp died in 1840 and was 39 at the time, but the records I see for Year X > don't seem to have an entry for the birth of Leonard Goepp (or Go > -umlaut-pp). I have found the above reference Uear XI, but the only words I > can decipher are Jahr, Leonard Goepp, and something that looks like Marie > Salome (the name of another relative, nee Hett). > If someone could give me a translation (even "rough and dirty") I would be > grateful. > Thank you, > Lucy

Hi, Birth of Johannes GÖPP, born on 23 Brumaire Year XI, son of Leonhard GÖPP, wine grower, 33 years old, and of Maria Salomea HÜTT Charles Selon Lucy Battersby <[email protected]>: > > Hello, > I have found a page in the Archives du Bas-Rhin, but I can not decipher it, > especially as it is most probably in Alsacian dialect or German. The > reference is "Heiligenstein, N, An XI, 4E, 188/1 (page 3 of 8)". Leonard > Goepp died in 1840 and was 39 at the time, but the records I see for Year X > don't seem to have an entry for the birth of Leonard Goepp (or Go > -umlaut-pp). I have found the above reference Uear XI, but the only words I > can decipher are Jahr, Leonard Goepp, and something that looks like Marie > Salome (the name of another relative, nee Hett). > If someone could give me a translation (even "rough and dirty") I would be > grateful. > Thank you, > Lucy

Hi, Marriage of : Leonard GÖPP (= GOEPP) born on 20 Frimaire Year VIII = Dec. 18, 1799 at Heiligenstein, son of Jean Leonard GÖPP, wine grower, and Anne Marie VOGEL and Marie Madeleine MIEG born on 10 Nivose Year X = Dec. 30, 1796 at Heiligenstein, daughter of Joseph MIEG, shoemaker, and Sophie HELLMANN regards, Charles Selon Lucy Battersby <[email protected]>: > > The marriage document for Leonard Goepp (Heiligenstein, M, 1823, 4E188/4, > page 4/8) gives the name of the epouse as Marie Madeleine with a last name I > can't decipher. It could be Mieg, Krieg, Tieg, Stieg, whose father is > Joseph (looks like) Mieg, cordonnier, and mother is Sophie Gellmann. Can > someone with a good eye and some experience with the documents look at this > name and let me know what you think? > Thank you.

Lucy, they are distinct places. Heiligenstein, Germany, is now part of Römerberg. Etienne De : Lucy Battersby <[email protected]> Date : 15 juillet 2011 05:03:54 GMT+02:00 Objet : [A-L] Heiligenstein under France and Germany? Is Heiligenstein in Bas Rhin, Alsace, the same as the Heiligenstein, Pfalz, Bayern?  Or am I looking at two distinct locations? Thanks.       

Lucy, the bride is named Marie Madeleine MIEG, her mother is Sophie HELLMANN (not Gellmann -- compare the initial H of Heil(i)genstein and the G of Goepp). Etienne De : Lucy Battersby <[email protected]> Date : 15 juillet 2011 05:41:34 GMT+02:00 Objet : [A-L] Spelling name of spouse of Leonard Goepp The marriage document for Leonard Goepp (Heiligenstein, M, 1823, 4E188/4, page 4/8) gives the name of the epouse as Marie Madeleine with a last name I can't decipher.  It could be  Mieg, Krieg, Tieg, Stieg, whose father is Joseph (looks like) Mieg, cordonnier, and mother is Sophie Gellmann.  Can someone with a good eye and some experience with the documents look at this name and let me know what you think? Thank you.     

I have seen records from the late 1700s into the 1800s in Germany which have twins listed as "Gemini" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rollie R" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 5:47 PM Subject: Re: [A-L] Recording birth of twins in 1826?? > Sue--I can't help on the twins problem but I noticed you memtion Magdalena > Richards. Are you sure the spelling was RICHARDS? Not RICHART, RICHERDT or > RICHERT?? My G-G-father came to Stark Co., later a part of Stark became > Rose Twp (near village of Morges)in Carroll county, in 1832 from > Bouxwiller,(between St Louis --roughly to the west and Colmar to little > North-East) Haut Rhin, Alsace, Fr. > > -----They too were Catholics and my G-mother was Magdalena > Zengler---common > mane in Rose Twp at that time--they came from the Bas Rhin area of Alsace. > The family name of Piero is nuknown to me --never notice it in all the > work > I did in Start or Carroll Cl. > > Sue I have a problem getting mail from an unknown sender so be patient on > a > reply from me --- I have to find your answer in a 'spam folder' and that > takes time Rollie Richards > >[email protected]< > > Original Message----- > From: shill [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 7:10 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [A-L] Recording birth of twins in 1826?? > > > Hi, > > Can anyone shed light on how twin births were usually recorded? Would > they > have been listed in same entry or separately? They too were Catholics and > my > G-mother was Magdalena Zengler---common mane in Rose Twp at that > time--they > came from the Bas Rhin area of Alsace. > > > I am researching the supposed birth of twins Joseph & Louisa PIERO in > Oberbronn in January 1826. In checking the ten year index, as well as, > each > page for the year 1826, I find only a birth for Henry Joseph PIERO on 9 > January 1826, entry #4. If Louisa had died the same day, I might > understand > how she was missed. However, there is no death for a PIERO in 1826. > > According to a family history book in the Stark County, Ohio, USA district > library (where this family immigrated in 1826) both children Joseph & > Louisa > were alive until c 1844 when they died same day. This book also states > that > both were baptized in St. Stephen's Church (Catholic) in > Oberbronn---Louisa, > either 9 or 19 January 1826 and Joseph on 10 January 1826. Parents were > Ignatius Piero & Magdalena Richards. (I googled St. Stephen's Catholic > Church & Oberbronn, but no hits.) > > Would love to have some input on recording of twin births & perhaps where > to > proceed next. The 1840 Stark County, Ohio census---although only recorded > head of household---seems to substantiate her existence as there is a > quantity of 2 girls listed for age group 10-15 years old. > > Thanks, > Sue > > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

The marriage document for Leonard Goepp (Heiligenstein, M, 1823, 4E188/4, page 4/8) gives the name of the epouse as Marie Madeleine with a last name I can't decipher. It could be Mieg, Krieg, Tieg, Stieg, whose father is Joseph (looks like) Mieg, cordonnier, and mother is Sophie Gellmann. Can someone with a good eye and some experience with the documents look at this name and let me know what you think? Thank you.