Or, if a family had no sons, a son-in-law would be picked to take over; he would adopt the surname, which his sons and their descendants used. There's at least one family in my ancestry where this happened every couple of generations for a while. Marsha L. Ensminger --- On Mon, 7/18/11, Fred H Held <[email protected]> wrote: > From: Fred H Held <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [A-L] Illegitimate births? > To: [email protected] > Date: Monday, July 18, 2011, 3:48 PM > One must always be aware that in some > areas of old Germany, when a > deceased male left no male heirs, and his widow remarries, > the new > husband will change his surname to be the same as the > deceased > husband to get possession of the property. This will break > the DNA > line for any additional children. This was very common in > the Lippe > area to the north. > > > At 03:24 PM 7/18/2011, you wrote: > >From: "Ralph Taylor" <[email protected]> > >Subject: Re: [A-L] ALSACE-LORRAINE Illegitimate > births? > >To: <[email protected]> > > > >Bob wrote: "If there are male direct line descendants, > you can have a yDNA > >test done and possibly discover matches with the > European ancestors." > ... > > ____________________________________________________________ > Penny Stock Jumping 3000% > Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free > today! > http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/4e24b83f1c857916d0st02duc > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm  > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > subject and the body of the message >

One must always be aware that in some areas of old Germany, when a deceased male left no male heirs, and his widow remarries, the new husband will change his surname to be the same as the deceased husband to get possession of the property. This will break the DNA line for any additional children. This was very common in the Lippe area to the north. At 03:24 PM 7/18/2011, you wrote: >From: "Ralph Taylor" <[email protected]> >Subject: Re: [A-L] ALSACE-LORRAINE Illegitimate births? >To: <[email protected]> > >Bob wrote: "If there are male direct line descendants, you can have a yDNA >test done and possibly discover matches with the European ancestors." ... ____________________________________________________________ Penny Stock Jumping 3000% Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/4e24b83f1c857916d0st02duc

Brian, I would say that BELTZ and BELTZUNG are different names. Their etymology isn't clear. - BELTZ (BELZ) is an old name of Soultz, Haut-Rhin. The oldest known there are Luc BELTZ x Barbe WASNER. Their son Tobie B x 1653 Marie Madeleine WETZLER, he was "conseiller" in Soultz and died 1672. This family has a sketch on the CDHF website: <http://www.cdhf.net/fr/index.php?t=bases&d=bases%2Fnotices&c=notices&f=selection&p=&order=uid&order2=1&motcle=&nom1=beltz > Or: http://www.cdhf.net/ ; then 'Bases de données', then 'Notices de famille'. - BEL(T)ZUNG is an old name of the valley of Masevaux. The name (Jean BILLIGSUNG) is mentionned there in 1515 in Bourbach le Haut. In 1603 Jean B married Walbourge GLADEY there. Etienne Le 30 juin 11 à 04:58, [email protected] a écrit : > What is the likelihood of the Beltz and Beltzung surnames > originating from > the same progenitor? They seem to be of Alsatian origin? > > Also, I'd like to thank again everyone who helped me reconnect with my > cousin Jean. I recently gave him two pieces of data he was missing > and he > turned that into a dozen back at me! Well one missing and one wrong, > but > commonly quoted. > > Thanks, > > Brian

Bob wrote: "If there are male direct line descendants, you can have a yDNA test done and possibly discover matches with the European ancestors." Yes, it's possible. Genetic genealogy can provide significant clues for focusing documentary genealogy research. It may take a while though and probably requires learning a different approach to genealogy. The Y-DNA test tracks only the direct paternal/filial line of descent, as the Y chromosome is passed down only from fathers to sons. Its advantage (and sometimes its curse) is that Y-DNA takes a very long view. I'm the admin for a different surname project (one of British Isles origin), and would like to offer a couple of pieces of advice if Jacquie decides to go this route. First, by-pass the cheaper 12-marker test in favor of at least 37 markers. (67 is better and a 111 marker test is now available.) The 12-marker test produces too many "false positives" and little way to prioritize them for follow-up; it's false economy. Next, be aware that few Europeans have participated in DNA testing (especially for genealogy) at the present time. It's been slow to catch on in Europe. This fact, essentially, limits the opportunities for matches to descendants of immigrants to America. And, the immigrants were a small sub-set of the total population. Jacquie won't have a problem with this next item: Be alert to the possibility of an "NPE" (non-parental event) in which the child's surname is not that of the biological father's. While we normally assume that surnames always follow the Y chromosome, my rough investigation shows it's only about 60% true. NPEs seem to occur in about 3% of births and they're cumulative through the generations. Finally, be patient. If one does not have matches initially, more people are getting tested every day and each one has the possibility of providing you a match. -rt_/)

That agrees with my limited research. The name Beltz cropping up after the name Beltzung. Not by much. I've always wondered if they don't share a common ancestor in Jean Billigzung. There is another connection of Jean Pelson l'aine who may be the father of Jean Beltzung (oo Walbourg Gladey). However, Pelson may have it's own etymology. However, it is the Beltz which interests me most, as it could very well be a shortening of the name Beltzung. I have names in other regions of Europe where this happened, and it almost always seems to happen in the early 1600s. But we would need records to tie the names together. Records which don't appear to exist. Either because they were destroyed or the two surnames are just different. Mysteries and windmills. What to chase and what not to chase? That is the question. I had just been musing on the subject, when I posted that email. Wondering if anyone else had come to my leap of logic. Thanks Etienne for responding. Brian On Mon, July 18, 2011 10:39 am, Etienne Herrbach wrote: > Brian, > > I would say that BELTZ and BELTZUNG are different names. Their > etymology isn't clear. >

The age of marriage without parental consent was 30 for men and 25 for women. This is why you see so many men marrying at age 30 and women around 25. Before that the parent(s) or eldest family member had to give consent. You also had to have the money to pay State/Church to get married and the local ruler also could deny marriage for any reason he/she wanted to, I believe. Those in the military needed to get consent, and that was frequently denied. If you belonged to one of the craft guilds, they may also have dictated who you were supposed/allowed to marry. It's not unusual to see people (especially the poor) not get married, or to do so secretly (especially if they belonged to a "heretical" religious sect). As far as I know "fils natural" means the same thing as illegitimate. I can't recall seeing any of the French records record anything in French other than "fils natural", or the equivalent for girls, for illegitimate ("unehelich" is German, not French). But that just be anecdotal evidence on my part and could easily vary from one recorder to another. It was customary to legitimize all children of a couple upon marriage. It was, in fact, probably required. You'd want to research that, though. As far as the Church "really" frowning upon it. I think that is more modern rewriting of history. It was common, plus you had lots of wars, and raping of women and resulting illegitimate births from that. Certainly, marriage was preferred, because it meant more money for the church state, and other benefits (from a church state viewpoint). Plus a bastard son might not be permitted to marry in the church without paying a, probably very hefty, fee to "legitimize" himself. Brian On Sat, July 16, 2011 6:37 pm, Chris Bauman wrote: > Steve, > I'm sure someone will have a more complete answer than I can provide, but > I have seen similar notions in German Catholic church records. "Fils > natural" translates (I believe) to "natural child"--a child born outside > of marriage. The birth register I saw listed a child as "illegitimate" > ("unehelich"), with both the father's and mother's names listed. But there > was a notation to the record (in the margin area) indicating that the > birth had been made "legitimate" by the parents' subsequent marriage. I > also located a web page (in French) talking about "fils natural"-- > ...

Steve   In your message you made the following statement.   “It seems very unlikely to me that the Catholic Church, let alone the local citizens, would have been ok with all of these illegitimate births. I would think that they would have been ostracized from the community.”   My 2 nd great grandmother had a child born out of wedlock in Houssen in 1841 before marrying my 2 nd great grandfather and having 10 children.   She herself and her mother were born out of wedlock as were 9 members of the family over three generations.   In addition one of her daughters had a child born out of wedlock.   While researching the Houssen records I found many other out of wedlock births.   When I asked about this I was told it was probably due to the cost of getting married.   Based on the number of out of wedlock births I have to conclude that it was generally an accepted condition at the time with no great stigma applied to the mother or the child.   What offended me was that, with one exception, the father is never named in the records.   The one exception was the case of the father being away on military duty.   Evan in this case the child’s surname was that of the mother.   It seems to me this was men making laws to protect men from paternity claims or responsibilities.   I believe many of the fathers took responsibility for the children but if they choose not to there was no legal record of the paternity.   Curt ----- Original Message -----

By any chance do we have any member(s) of this list who live within shouting distance of Roppeviller, France and who are willing to do look-ups and/or take photos of gravesites in Roppeviller? TIA! -Kat-

Good Morning, All! A number of years ago, I happened upon information and suggestions on how to research German ancestors on one of the genealogy websites, can't remember which one now, though. In this information they made mention of German couples having and raising children out of wedlock. I cannot remember the entire article now, but it said it was a type of fully-acceptable "tradition" at one time. Many unmarried couples simply raised families without the benefit of marriage. It wasn't until well after their families were established that many of them married. In addition, oftentimes the woman continued to use her maiden surname even after marriage. If I can remember which website I read this on, I'll post the address on this list. Just don't hold your breaths waiting for it, since I bypassed "forgetful" at least five years ago and am now well into my "senility" years. (lol) -Kat-

When you speak of ostracism, be aware that the church's position, the priest's views and the opinions of the parishioners may all have been quite different. Be careful about generalizations. My experience with the attitudes in small towns in the Pfalz and Alsace and Lorraine is that views range from very permissive to intensely narrow-minded and prejudiced.

"It seems very unlikely to me that the Catholic Church, let alone the local citizens, would have been ok with all of these illegitimate births. I would think that they would have been ostracized from the community." I found the answers to this very interesting. I think any of them is worth pursuing, if you want to really know. I have just a thought or two to add. One thing I know from my own research is that the things we assume, such as earlier generations being uniformly Victorian in mores, may not be true in all cases. I know that while if you ask the average American where women were in the 1950's they will say home raising the children, but I know of numerous women who worked - in some cases to support themselves, and in others to support their families. In my family there were at least two who worked almost all of their adult lives, retired, and were able to live well on their retirement benefits. So it is clearly not true that ALL the women were home with the kids, even if our expectation is that they were. Especially if the laws made it difficult for a family to marry, the local church's response may have been more understanding than we would tend to think, if only to make sure that the children were raised Catholic, rather than something else. We might expect ostracism bases on what we have heard from the Church during parts of the 20th century, but that might have been far from the case in that time and place. Theresa

Jacquie: Never say never!  If there are male direct line descendants, you can have a yDNA test done and possibly discpver matches with the European ancestors. Bob Epp Epp Surname Researcher DNA Project: www.ftdna.com 703-475-6233 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred and Jacquie Schattner" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2011 12:26:06 AM Subject: Re: [A-L] Illegitimate births? Sometimes the couple just had to wait until they had enough money to marry. I think there was a marriage tax of some sort.  I don't think this was so unusual. There is a woman in our family who had 5 children, no father ever mentioned, all who have their mother's maiden name.  Each time the father of this woman goes to the village to record their births.  I can just imagine the shame of saying AGAIN, my unmarried daughter had another child.  When she came to the united states she declared herself a widow.  The children do not give father's names on the marriage certificates.  I'll never know who the father(s) are. Is it one father, and they never married, or 5 different fathers?  I'm trying to find photos to see if the children look anything alike. Jacquie

It is quite true that not all priests are alike. And therefore, not all parishes and communities either. Now that you mention it, I was very surprised to see the village registers labeled "Marriages and Divorces" and "Births and Adoptions". I have never seen this anywhere else in the 1800's. Steve  ________________________________ From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> To: [email protected]; [email protected] Sent: Sun, July 17, 2011 6:58:58 PM Subject: Re: [A-L] ALSACE-LORRAINE Digest, Vol 6, Issue 194 "It seems very unlikely to me that the Catholic Church, let alone the local citizens, would have been ok with all of these illegitimate births. I would think that they would have been ostracized from the community." I found the answers to this very interesting.  I think any of them is worth pursuing, if you want to really know.  I have just a thought or two to add. One thing I know from my own research is that the things we assume, such as earlier generations being uniformly Victorian in mores, may not be true in all cases...

A good idea! Jacquie -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bob Epp Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2011 12:26 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [A-L] Illegitimate births? Jacquie: Never say never! If there are male direct line descendants, you can have a yDNA test done and possibly discpver matches with the European ancestors. Bob Epp Epp Surname Researcher DNA Project: www.ftdna.com 703-475-6233 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred and Jacquie Schattner" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2011 12:26:06 AM Subject: Re: [A-L] Illegitimate births? Sometimes the couple just had to wait until they had enough money to marry. I think there was a marriage tax of some sort. I don't think this was so unusual. There is a woman in our family who had 5 children, no father ever mentioned, all who have their mother's maiden name. Each time the father of this woman goes to the village to record their births. I can just imagine the shame of saying AGAIN, my unmarried daughter had another child. When she came to the united states she declared herself a widow. The children do not give father's names on the marriage certificates. I'll never know who the father(s) are. Is it one father, and they never married, or 5 different fathers? I'm trying to find photos to see if the children look anything alike. Jacquie -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Stephan, it may also have had to do with money. My researcher Rinehart Hofer from Bavaria told me that if you didn't have a certain amount of money back in the 1800's you couldn't get married. So, a lot of people were born out of wedlock. Manfred Russell. -----Original Message----- From: Stephan Wall <[email protected]> To: alsace-lorraine <[email protected]> Sent: Sat, Jul 16, 2011 11:00 pm Subject: Re: [A-L] Illegitimate births? Christine, I find it very interesting that you mention the need for parental consent, ossibly up to age 27. I've never heard of this before and I wonder if it pplies here. After all, the marriage took place after the grooms 28th birthday. And since the groom was illegitimate himself, could the fact that he had no ather to consent be the problem? I have always felt that there was some sort of ordinance or rule behind all of this. Thank You teve - esources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: ttp://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message

Jacquie,   You exactly described the feeling I had when I discovered these facts. I can only imagine the embarrassment of going to announce 4 illegitimate children over a 5 year period. It is this thinking that brings about the question of why this arrangement existed. I also feel your sentiment regarding not knowing the name of the father. As I said before the eventual husband in this relationship was also illegitimate. His father's name was never mentioned, the mother never married and he was an only child.  Therefore, as far as my research goes, I will never know anything more about that line. However, you did give me an idea in looking through the death records for any possible mentions or links. Manfred, I have also thought about the possibility of the reason having to do with lack of money. I read in "Our Daily Bread" that couples often didn't marry right away due to the lack of money for a home. Having had so many children in the interm leads me to believe this was not the reason. Even so, it may still have been for monetary reasons. I would love to to see their living arrangements in the Census. That could provide clues as to what was going on at the time. Thank You Steve  ________________________________ From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sun, July 17, 2011 10:59:30 AM Subject: Re: [A-L] Illegitimate births? Stephan,  it may also have had to do with money.  My researcher Rinehart Hofer from Bavaria told me that if you didn't have a certain amount of money back in the 1800's you couldn't get married.  So, a lot of people were born out of wedlock.  Manfred Russell.

Steve, I'm sure someone will have a more complete answer than I can provide, but I have seen similar notions in German Catholic church records. "Fils natural" translates (I believe) to "natural child"--a child born outside of marriage. The birth register I saw listed a child as "illegitimate" ("unehelich"), with both the father's and mother's names listed. But there was a notation to the record (in the margin area) indicating that the birth had been made "legitimate" by the parents' subsequent marriage. I also located a web page (in French) talking about "fils natural"-- http://www.geneafrance.org/rubrique.php?page=naturel Running it through the Google translator (I know, not the best, but gives the basics), it sounds like establishing paternity was important to allowing the child to be recognized by the state, even if it wasn't legitimate. So while I'm sure the church didn't "approve" of the circumstances regarding these children's birth, it would have still recorded the information, trying to preserve as many rights as possible for the child. Traditionally, I think the kids would have the mother's surname, even if the father was identified. I remember a mailing list conversation many years ago that mentioned something about needing parents' permission to marry (in Alsace) up to age 27 or something like that--much older than the 18 or 21 we typically have in the USA. So maybe the parents wouldn't give permission, & the kids just ignored that. I have a distant cousin whose great-grand-somethings weren't allowed to marry because "he wasn't good enough". So they got pregnant, figuring that would seal the deal. Girl's parents still said no, so he left for Chicago, made some money, and sent for/came back to get her and the baby. So there could be a LOT of different scenarios going on. Good luck! Christine, IBSSG Sure, a real job would be nice, but it would interfere with my genealogy! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephan Wall" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 6:18:23 PM Subject: [A-L] Illegitimate births? Hello everyone, I have been stumped for some time over the illegitimate birth of my 2nd Great Grandmother and I want to hear what you all think. The family was from Lemberg in the Moselle Department of Lorraine. The father, Pierre Kriegel, born in 1828, was himself illegitimate. The record of his birth in the Parish Register listed him as "fils natural" as opposed to illegitimate, with no father listed. What is the significance of the term "fils natural" ? Why wouldn't they use "Illegitimate" as I have seen in so many other Catholic Parishes? It is what happened next that really confused me. In 1851 Pierre fathered twins with Marguerite Schneider. The twins are listed in the Lemberg records as "fils natural", and given the surname Schneider. Pierre is listed in the records as being the father. The couple went on to have my Great Grandmother in 1853 and another son in 1855, both with the surname Schneider, and listed the same way in the records. Then in 1856 Pierre Kriegel and Marguerite Schneider finally married. In the marriage record, the church legitimized all 4 children that were born prior to the marriage. It seems very unlikely to me that the Catholic Church, let alone the local citizens, would have been ok with all of these illegitimate births. I would think that they would have been ostracized from the community. Could there have been another reason they were not married earlier? Could the reason have to do with Pierre being illegitimate himself? I would love to hear what you all think about this story. Thank You All Steve Wall -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Sometimes the couple just had to wait until they had enough money to marry. I think there was a marriage tax of some sort. I don't think this was so unusual. There is a woman in our family who had 5 children, no father ever mentioned, all who have their mother's maiden name. Each time the father of this woman goes to the village to record their births. I can just imagine the shame of saying AGAIN, my unmarried daughter had another child. When she came to the united states she declared herself a widow. The children do not give father's names on the marriage certificates. I'll never know who the father(s) are. Is it one father, and they never married, or 5 different fathers? I'm trying to find photos to see if the children look anything alike. Jacquie -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Stephan Wall Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 5:18 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [A-L] Illegitimate births? Hello everyone, I have been stumped for some time over the illegitimate birth of my 2nd Great Grandmother and I want to hear what you all think.  The family was from Lemberg in the Moselle Department of Lorraine. The father, Pierre Kriegel, born in 1828, was himself illegitimate. The record of his birth in the Parish Register listed him as "fils natural" as opposed to illegitimate, with no father listed. What is the significance of the term "fils natural" ? Why wouldn't they use "Illegitimate" as I have seen in so many other Catholic Parishes? It is what happened next that really confused me. In 1851 Pierre fathered twins with Marguerite Schneider. The twins are listed in the Lemberg records as "fils natural", and given the surname Schneider. Pierre is listed in the records as being the father. The couple went on to have my Great Grandmother in 1853 and another son in 1855, both with the surname Schneider, and listed the same way in the records. Then in 1856 Pierre Kriegel and Marguerite Schneider finally married. In the marriage record, the church legitimized all 4 children that were born prior to the marriage. It seems very unlikely to me that the Catholic Church, let alone the local citizens, would have been ok with all of these illegitimate births. I would think that they would have been ostracized from the community. Could there have been another reason they were not married earlier?  Could the reason have to do with Pierre being illegitimate himself? I would love to hear what you all think about this story. Thank You All Steve Wall -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Christine, I find it very interesting that you mention the need for parental consent, possibly up to age 27. I've never heard of this before and I wonder if it applies here. After all, the marriage took place after the grooms 28th birthday. And since the groom was illegitimate himself, could the fact that he had no father to consent be the problem? I have always felt that there was some sort of ordinance or rule behind all of this.  Thank You Steve 

Christine, I find it very interesting that you mention the need for parental consent, possibly up to 27. I have never heard of this before and wonder if it applies here. After all, the marriage took place after the grooms 28th birthday. And since the groom was illegitimate himself, could the fact that he had no father to consent be the problem? I have always felt that there was some sort of ordinance or rule behind all of this.  Thank You Steve  ________________________________ From: Chris Bauman <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sat, July 16, 2011 7:37:10 PM Subject: Re: [A-L] Illegitimate births? Steve, I'm sure someone will have a more complete answer than I can provide, but I have seen similar notions in German Catholic church records. "Fils natural" translates (I believe) to "natural child"--a child born outside of marriage. The birth register I saw listed a child as "illegitimate" ("unehelich"), with both the father's and mother's names listed. But there was a notation to the record (in the margin area) indicating that the birth had been made "legitimate" by the parents' subsequent marriage. I also located a web page (in French) talking about "fils natural"-- http://www.geneafrance.org/rubrique.php?page=naturel Running it through the Google translator (I know, not the best, but gives the basics), it sounds like establishing paternity was important to allowing the child to be recognized by the state, even if it wasn't legitimate. So while I'm sure the church didn't "approve" of the circumstances regarding these children's birth, it would have still recorded the information, trying to preserve as many rights as possible for the child. Traditionally, I think the kids would have the mother's surname, even if the father was identified. I remember a mailing list conversation many years ago that mentioned something about needing parents' permission to marry (in Alsace) up to age 27 or something like that--much older than the 18 or 21 we typically have in the USA. So maybe the parents wouldn't give permission, & the kids just ignored that. I have a distant cousin whose great-grand-somethings weren't allowed to marry because "he wasn't good enough". So they got pregnant, figuring that would seal the deal. Girl's parents still said no, so he left for Chicago, made some money, and sent for/came back to get her and the baby. So there could be a LOT of different scenarios going on. Good luck! Christine, IBSSG Sure, a real job would be nice, but it would interfere with my genealogy! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephan Wall" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 6:18:23 PM Subject: [A-L] Illegitimate births? Hello everyone, I have been stumped for some time over the illegitimate birth of my 2nd Great Grandmother and I want to hear what you all think. The family was from Lemberg in the Moselle Department of Lorraine. The father, Pierre Kriegel, born in 1828, was himself illegitimate. The record of his birth in the Parish Register listed him as "fils natural" as opposed to illegitimate, with no father listed. What is the significance of the term "fils natural" ? Why wouldn't they use "Illegitimate" as I have seen in so many other Catholic Parishes? It is what happened next that really confused me. In 1851 Pierre fathered twins with Marguerite Schneider. The twins are listed in the Lemberg records as "fils natural", and given the surname Schneider. Pierre is listed in the records as being the father. The couple went on to have my Great Grandmother in 1853 and another son in 1855, both with the surname Schneider, and listed the same way in the records. Then in 1856 Pierre Kriegel and Marguerite Schneider finally married. In the marriage record, the church legitimized all 4 children that were born prior to the marriage. It seems very unlikely to me that the Catholic Church, let alone the local citizens, would have been ok with all of these illegitimate births. I would think that they would have been ostracized from the community. Could there have been another reason they were not married earlier? Could the reason have to do with Pierre being illegitimate himself? I would love to hear what you all think about this story. Thank You All Steve Wall -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm  ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message