Linn, try this: http://www.stemwedegenealogy.com/terminology.htm http://www.genealogie-reichel.de/monatsnamen.htm <http://www.zinkernagel.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=68&Itemid=82> http://www.ghgrb.ch/genealogicalIntroduction/monatsnamen.html Regards Bernd [email protected] schrieb: > > Ewald, thanks for sending this it is very helpful. Could you list the rest > of the months. I write all of this stuff in a book which helps me so very > much when I am "trying" to read records. > > Walk in peace, > > Linn > > Used in civil records to say months: > 7bre = Sept. > 8bre = Oct. > 9bre = Nov. > 10bre or Xbre = Dec > Ewald

Ewald, thanks for sending this it is very helpful. Could you list the rest of the months. I write all of this stuff in a book which helps me so very much when I am "trying" to read records. Walk in peace, Linn Used in civil records to say months: 7bre = Sept. 8bre = Oct. 9bre = Nov. 10bre or Xbre = Dec Ewald

Laura, Try www.geopatronyme.com This site tells you the distribution of surnames in France for four periods over the past 120 years. The default is the earliest period (1891-1915) and the results show you both a map and a list of departments. The get the names of the towns just click on the name of the department you are interested in (in the list, not on the map). Robert Behra -----Original Message----- From: Laura <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thu, Aug 4, 2011 10:43 am Subject: [A-L] Surnames in Moselle In an earlier email, Dave wrote " The surname Abba is only listed in Mosellein Walscheid and is not listed atall in Alsace for that time period."I would like to know more about the list to which Dave referred. I'm curiousabout my Gury and Houpert lines (they hail from Moselle) and I wonder ifthese surnames names appear in towns other than the ones I know thus far.Thanks for any information about "the list".It's all relative,LauraPS - Do we have an ancestor in common? Check my family history website<http://livinginthepastlane.com/> ormy blog <http://livinginthepastlane.blogspot.com/>.-- Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members:http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine- L.htm -------------------------------To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In an earlier email, Dave wrote " The surname Abba is only listed in Moselle in Walscheid and is not listed at all in Alsace for that time period." I would like to know more about the list to which Dave referred. I'm curious about my Gury and Houpert lines (they hail from Moselle) and I wonder if these surnames names appear in towns other than the ones I know thus far. Thanks for any information about "the list". It's all relative, Laura PS - Do we have an ancestor in common? Check my family history web site<http://livinginthepastlane.com/> or my blog <http://livinginthepastlane.blogspot.com/>.

Good morning, listmembers, Please allow me to introduce myself, and hopefully I will be able to receive answers to a few questions. I'm very glad to have found this RootsWeb list. I have been researching my family tree now for almost 20 years. A sizable portion of my ancestors were "Pennsylvania Germans" who came from what is now southwestern Germany, Alsace, Lorraine, and parts of Switzerland to Pennsylvania in the 18th century. One of my main family lines is Brion/Breon. My 8th-great-grandparents, Hans Jacob and Maria (Jouin) Brion, were from Kirrberg, Bas-Rhin department, were married in the Diedendorf Reformed Church in 1706, and baptized a number of their children there between 1706 and 1727. Many of these children came to Pennsylvania on the ship "Lydia" in 1741. Over the years I've obtained various information on this family, from Annette Kunselman Burgert's book on 18th century immigrants from Alsace (which I have), as well as genealogical postings on the Internet and miscellaneous photocopies of material sent to me by various individuals. (These documents have traced the lineage to one Peter Brion, born ca. 1590, who had a son Jacob Brion, born in Burbach in 1619.) I also have a very thick paperback book, with a blue cover I believe (it is currently stored away) on the history of Kirrberg, which is written all in German. At least three distant cousins have visited the Kirrberg and Diedendorf area, and have made contact with some of the family still living there, and have sent back pictures. It is a trip that I also hope to make at some point. Recently, I was contacted by a Lucy Battersby, who descends from a different Brion who immigrated at a much later date from Kirrberg and settled in the Mid-West. She told me about this list. As I was attempting to piece together her connection to our Brion family, I discovered that the Bas-Rhin archives have placed their parish and civil records online, a fact probably well-known to most on this list. I am greatly enjoying going through the old Diedendorf parish registers, finding many, many records of Brions, Jouins, and their kin who were baptized, sponsored baptisms, etc., etc. But this leads me to a few questions: 1. First, is there anyone else on the list who is researching these families? If so, I'd love to hear from you! 2. Second, I notice that Brions from Kirrberg are listed in the Reformed Church registers from Diedendorf (which begin in 1698) and also in the Reformed Church registers from Rauwiller (which begin in 1723). I have read that the area was settled very early (16th century) by Protestant Huguenots, and that, at various times, church communities were closed/decimated. My question is: Is the Reformed parish at Rauwiller a "daughter" parish to the one in Diedendorf? I'm trying to analogize to the situation I've encountered in Eastern European research, which is, if you live in village X, you attend church in village Y, and your baptisms, marriages, funerals, are recorded in village Y 99.999% of the time, unless for some exceptional reason you happen to be in village Z when an important life event happens. Hence my question, can I analogize this properly to Reformed parishes in the Alsace? That is, if someone lives in Kirrberg, will they always go to the parish which "covers" their village for ecclesiastical acts? If so, did that change in 1723 or so for Kirrberg? Otherwise, why are Brions from Kirrberg mentioned in both Diedendorf and Rauwiller records? Any resources which can help me understand the development of these parishes would be very much appreciated. 3. Third, I've read that a Dr. Gerhard Hein has done extracts from many parish records in this area, compiling the records into family groups. Did he do complete extracts for all the families of a given parish for a given time period? Is there a record of which parishes, and time periods, he extracted? I heard that his work is available on CD-ROM. Where might I purchase it? Such a guide would likely help me focus my search of the parish registers to specific dates and names, rather than reading page after page. 4. Fourth, has anyone ever translated the old statements on the opening page of the Diedendorf parish register? I'm curious as to what it says. My Germanic-script reading is good enough to make sense of most of the vital acts, but when one gets into narrative sentences, my ability rapidly declines! I'm happy to share any of the family information that I have that might be of interest to anyone. In addition to the Brion/Jouin group from Kirrberg, I have other Alsatian roots which lead back to Joseph Schneider who lived in Diedendorf and who came from Melchnau, Canton Bern, Switzerland; David Mertz who lived in Hangwiller (now Phalsbourg), in Lorraine (as I understand it); Johann Barnhardt Borst, said to have been from "near Strasbourg" and who came to Pennsylvania in 1766; Johann Eader/Ader/Otter/Etris (c1711-1784), whose origin is mysterious, but who *may* have come from Alsace and settled in Montgomery County, Pa., where he was active in the Reformed Church. I am also related to a number of Anabaptist Schürchs who came from Sumiswald, Switzerland, to Alsace in the 17th and 18th century. Thanks for any insight that anyone can provide. I'm very glad to have found this list and look forward to joining in the discussions as time permits. Justin Houser Scranton, PA

Hi Lucy, Used in civil records to say months: 7bre = Sept. 8bre = Oct. 9bre = Nov. 10bre or Xbre = Dec Ewald +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 2011/8/3 Lucy Battersby <[email protected]> > > Dear Etienne and Rita, > > > > Thank you for pointing me to the German biographical and the English > Wikipedia sources. I'll explore the latter first, then will move (with > trepidation) to the German. > > > Gloria, both of your suggestions were interesting, although each had a > strike against him (and you can guess what they were). > > > May I know from someone expert in handwriiting what the month would be for > the birth of Geoffroi Goepp in Heiligenstein (Bah Rhin, Heiligenstein, TD, > 1833-1842, 4 E 188/10), forgive me I don't have the pages, but it is with > the births of all those Goepps. The months looks to be "ybu. Below > another one (David Goepp) thy looks to be "gbre" so I this is what I see > when I look down the page: "avril, janvier, aout, yby?, use?, mars, mai, > idt? (idt?) gbre?, Aout,? mars, mars, Avril, and gbre?". Thank you in > advance to anyone who can give a coup d'oeil. > > > Best wishes, > > > Lucy > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Lucy, although I'm no handwriting expert, Image 2 on the line for Geoffroi Goepp reads 27 7bre or 27 September in English. You can assume 1833 from the line above.  This can be confirmed when you go to Heiligenstein, N, 1833, i 5, #14 for Geoffroi which shows the month as Septembre. The ___ember months are often shown in Alsace (and many other places) with a number before them. I believe this is from the Latin Sept = 7 so 7bre Oct = 8  so 8bre Non = 9 so 9bre Dec = 10 or 10bre which is usually shown as Xbre. My french is limited but most of the rest of the months are very close to English except Aout which is August. There is an "Idem" date listed which just means ditto or "" in English. It means the as the record before it. When just idem is listed, like for Sophie Goepp,  it means the same date (often twins, but check the actual records). You can also see on that next page where idem is listed for the month.  Hope this helps, Dave

Dear Etienne and Rita, Thank you for pointing me to the German biographical and the English Wikipedia sources. I'll explore the latter first, then will move (with trepidation) to the German. Gloria, both of your suggestions were interesting, although each had a strike against him (and you can guess what they were). May I know from someone expert in handwriiting what the month would be for the birth of Geoffroi Goepp in Heiligenstein (Bah Rhin, Heiligenstein, TD, 1833-1842, 4 E 188/10), forgive me I don't have the pages, but it is with the births of all those Goepps. The months looks to be "ybu. Below another one (David Goepp) thy looks to be "gbre" so I this is what I see when I look down the page: "avril, janvier, aout, yby?, use?, mars, mai, idt? (idt?) gbre?, Aout,? mars, mars, Avril, and gbre?". Thank you in advance to anyone who can give a coup d'oeil. Best wishes, Lucy

Hi, The site of the CDHF in Guebwiller (Haut-Rhin, Alsace) says that "N. Rottenhausen" (New ? Rottenhausen) is an other name of Kutzenhausen located in Bas-Rhin, Alsace, ZIP 67250. See the site: http://cdhf.telmat-net.fr/fr/index.php?t=villages&d=villages&c=villages&f=show&lieu=529 I'm not at home to verify that in my book "Das Reichsland Elsass-Lothringen" Ewald ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 2011/8/3 <[email protected]> > Merci. > > Paul > > On Dé Máirt, 2 Lúnasa, 2011, at 06:41, Etienne Herrbach wrote: > > > Paul, > > > > no Rothenhausen or similar, nor 'Maison rouge', near Muttersholtz. > > > > Muttersholtz comprizes a hamlet named Rathsamhausen. A misreading may > > have changed it into Rothenhausen. > > > > Etienne > > > > > > > > Le 3 juil. 11 à 15:36, [email protected] a écrit : > > > >> I have a relative who supposedly came from "Rothenhausen, > >> Muttersholtz, Alsace." > >> > >> I do not see Rothenhausen on the list of towns on the French records > >> web site for Bas Rhin, but of course I do see Muttersholtz. > >> > >> Is Rothenhausen a town in the Alsace? > >> > >> I see it in Germany and Switzerland... > >> > >> best, > >> Paul > > > > > > -- > > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Lucy, Could either of these be the person you are looking for? The first seems more likely, similar to your grandfather in many ways and somewhat of a contemporary. I don't know if the second would be called a revolutionary but certainly an activist. Your grandfather may have "Frenchified" the spelling. Helmut von Gerlach Otto von Gerlach Both can be found on English Wikipedia. Gloria I

Merci. Paul On Dé Máirt, 2 Lúnasa, 2011, at 06:41, Etienne Herrbach wrote: > Paul, > > no Rothenhausen or similar, nor 'Maison rouge', near Muttersholtz. > > Muttersholtz comprizes a hamlet named Rathsamhausen. A misreading may > have changed it into Rothenhausen. > > Etienne > > > > Le 3 juil. 11 à 15:36, [email protected] a écrit : > >> I have a relative who supposedly came from "Rothenhausen, >> Muttersholtz, Alsace." >> >> I do not see Rothenhausen on the list of towns on the French records >> web site for Bas Rhin, but of course I do see Muttersholtz. >> >> Is Rothenhausen a town in the Alsace? >> >> I see it in Germany and Switzerland... >> >> best, >> Paul > > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dave, Thanks for your suggestions. Bob From: David Fetherston <[email protected]> Su You may want to start with the locations listed in http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/francecom.cgi?numero=0045441&periode=1&dept=57 for Oberle in Moselle during 1891-1915 and then move on to the ones in Bas Rhin and Haut Rhin later since you think she was from Moselle. The surname Abba is only listed in Moselle in Walscheid and is not listed at all in Alsace for that time period. It is not very far from Dabo or Lutzelbourg, two of the top listings for Oberle. You could also try going through the Oberles and Abbas in geneanet.org and try to find them. "I'm trying to locate a Rosina Oberle, who was born 19 March 1801, most likely in Moselle and her husband Jean Abba.? The family emigrated to Cincinnati, Ohio, around 1836. ..." You may also want to check for an obituary in or near Wilder, Campbell county, Kentucky, USA based on the following that lists a Rosina Oberle with the same birth date. It is possible that they are the same or that you have some info crossed. http://files.usgwarchives.net/ky/campbell/cemeteries/stjoej-p.txt Oberle,Rosina Abbe-married Krebs-19 Marz 1801-14 Mai 1882 Good luck, Dave -----------------

> (a dictionary of German biography must exist). Lucy, sure, German biography dictionaries exist. Here is one: <http://www.deutsche-biographie.de/index.html> Also, don't forget the German Wikipedia: <http://de.wikipedia.org> Good luck Etienne Le 29 juil. 11 à 21:29, Lucy Battersby a écrit : > Hello fellow Alsacians, > > My grandfather, born Othon Goepp, at some point in his life > (probably when he was in Paris in the late 19th, early 20th century) > changed his last name to Guerlac. I do not yet know when he changed > his name or where. I only know that he took the name Guerlac to > honor a 19th (18th?) century German whose life he admired. My > sister recalls my father saying that this German was a socialist, or > a revolutionary, "a good guy," she recalls him telling her. I have > searched web several times at some length, but have only found the > Gerlach brothers, one of whom seems to have been close to Bismark > (this is from memory, understand), so I suspect he was not the > Gerlach my grandfather, a journalist, translator, literary person, > and later French professor, wished to emulate. My German (which I'm > working on again) is currently insufficient to browse the German > web, but I wonder if any of the correspondents of this listserv, who > know so much, could point me towards a good prospect (a dict! > ionary of German biography must exist). > > Thank you, and I enjoy so much reading your daily posts. > > Lucy Battersby (soon to be Guerlac again, which suggests the urgency > of my inquiry)

Paul, no Rothenhausen or similar, nor 'Maison rouge', near Muttersholtz. Muttersholtz comprizes a hamlet named Rathsamhausen. A misreading may have changed it into Rothenhausen. Etienne Le 3 juil. 11 à 15:36, [email protected] a écrit : > I have a relative who supposedly came from "Rothenhausen, > Muttersholtz, Alsace." > > I do not see Rothenhausen on the list of towns on the French records > web site for Bas Rhin, but of course I do see Muttersholtz. > > Is Rothenhausen a town in the Alsace? > > I see it in Germany and Switzerland... > > best, > Paul

I don't think I was on the list in 2000. If you can't find it in a local library do what I did. I also have instances of pre-marriage births in my ancestral research, I recently found the reference to this book. If you can't find it in your library, try what I did. Google "illegitimacy Alsace" and the google books reference came up. You can read more pages there. I would suppose you could type in instead of "ill ... Alsace" another topic. I did it the other day for weddings. Remember Lutherans are saved by grace alone. Smile even if you aren't one. Cf the Lutheran mention below. Gloria I On Aug 1, 2011, at 1:17 PM, [email protected] wrote: > Since this topic has been getting quite a lot of attention recently I > thought there might be some interest in a book I first recommended to > this list in 2000: > > Culture, religion and demographic behaviour : Catholics and Lutherans > in Alsace, 1750-1870, by Kevin McQuillan (Montreal : McGill-Queen's > University Press, ©1999; ISBN 0773518606; Liverpool University Press > ISBN 0853238642) > > You can read the publisher's description at: > > http://catdir.loc.gov/catdir/enhancements/fy1001/2001334356-d.html > > You can find a copy in a library near you at: > > http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/40813680 > > Chapter four of the book (p. [78]-101) is titled "Illegitimacy and > bridal pregnancy". The first sentence in this chapter: > > "Sexual relations outside marriage, and the births that might be > expected to follow in a setting where contraception was limited, were > far from rare in Alsace, particularly in the aftermath of the French > Revolution." Alsace was near the top in terms of rural illegitimacy > among regions in France. > > The last sentence in this chapter: > > "Rising rates of illegitimacy and bridal pregnancy were, I believe, > one > part of the new demographic regime that came to characterize the > Lutheran community of Alsace in the nineteenth century." > > Overall the book makes for very dry reading, as it is full of > statistics (with a 15-page appendix titled "Issues of data quality and > method"), but if you have a serious interest in the lives of everyday > Catholics and Lutherans in Alsace during this period it would be worth > your time to find a copy. > > Robert Behra > > > -- > Resources for Alsace-Lorraine list members: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~valorie/Alsace-Lorraine-L.htm > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

Since this topic has been getting quite a lot of attention recently I thought there might be some interest in a book I first recommended to this list in 2000: Culture, religion and demographic behaviour : Catholics and Lutherans in Alsace, 1750-1870, by Kevin McQuillan (Montreal : McGill-Queen's University Press, ©1999; ISBN 0773518606; Liverpool University Press ISBN 0853238642) You can read the publisher's description at: http://catdir.loc.gov/catdir/enhancements/fy1001/2001334356-d.html You can find a copy in a library near you at: http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/40813680 Chapter four of the book (p. [78]-101) is titled "Illegitimacy and bridal pregnancy". The first sentence in this chapter: "Sexual relations outside marriage, and the births that might be expected to follow in a setting where contraception was limited, were far from rare in Alsace, particularly in the aftermath of the French Revolution." Alsace was near the top in terms of rural illegitimacy among regions in France. The last sentence in this chapter: "Rising rates of illegitimacy and bridal pregnancy were, I believe, one part of the new demographic regime that came to characterize the Lutheran community of Alsace in the nineteenth century." Overall the book makes for very dry reading, as it is full of statistics (with a 15-page appendix titled "Issues of data quality and method"), but if you have a serious interest in the lives of everyday Catholics and Lutherans in Alsace during this period it would be worth your time to find a copy. Robert Behra

For those who are doing Oberseebach Catholic research I now have color digital photos of almost all the 19th century civil Catholic birth records photographed from the original registers in the mairie in Seebach. These documents might contain information not available on the LDS films which are available either through your local FHC or on-line from the Archives. If you know that your ancestor was born in Oberseebach please contact me with the name and date of birth. I also have most Catholic civil marriage and death records. NO CHARGE. This is not a research offer. Church records – for a donation to St. Martin’s in Seebach I am again offering color digital copies of all Catholic church records from the 1790s to the 20th century. Some register years have been lost or destroyed. If interested contact me personally. Charlie [email protected]

I have posted this to the Alsace-Lorraine list before, though not recently. It seems like the appropriate time to repeat the post. The legal age of majority in France was set in 1803 at 21 years (lowered in 1974 to 18 years). However, there was an exception in the case of marriage: a man younger than 25 (and a woman younger than 21) needed the consent of their parents in order to marry. If there was disagreement between the parents, it was sufficient to have consent of the father. If one parent was dead or incapable of indicating consent, the consent of the remaining parent was sufficient. If both parents were dead or incapable of indicating consent, the grandparents took their place. Even after having reached 25 (21 for women) it was still required for the prospective bride and groom to make a formal, respectful request to their parents for their counsel regarding the marriage -- this was necessary until the groom had reached 30 and the bride 25. If the parents were opposed to the marriage, this formal request was required to be repeated two more times, once a month. One month after a third unsuccessful request the marriage could go ahead. And even after a prospective groom had reached 30 he was still required to make this formal request to his parents. In the event of an objection on the part of his parents he could go ahead with the marriage one month later. If the parents and grandparents were all dead or all incapable of indicating consent, it was necessary for anyone younger than 21 to obtain consent of the conseil de famille. There were stiff penalties for civil officials who didn't enforce these regulations. The conseil de famille was composed of a justice of the peace and six blood relatives or relatives by marriage, half from the father's side and half from the mother's side. (There were more complex regulations for the composition of the group, but this is the basic idea.) This is all from Le Code Civil (also known as the Code Napoléon), the body of French civil law first promulgated in 1803. I have a 1997 edition, which includes the current text as well as that of all the superseded portions. >> Robert Behra

Thank you for sharing this information and the web site, Karen. I too have found this topic interesting! We cannot apply today's standards, customs or traditions when trying to understand the lives of our ancestors. It almost seems as if we (as a society) have become more close-minded in our view of births outside marriage. On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Karen Crisalli <[email protected]>wrote: > I am usually a "lurker" and not a poster, but I have been watching the > comments about illegitimacy with some interest. I found the following > information on www.understandingyourancestors.com and it may give yet some > more insight into birth customs in Europe at the time. I have found > several > sites on the internet which voice the same general attitude about such >

I am usually a "lurker" and not a poster, but I have been watching the comments about illegitimacy with some interest. I found the following information on www.understandingyourancestors.com and it may give yet some more insight into birth customs in Europe at the time. I have found several sites on the internet which voice the same general attitude about such births in that time period. I have found in my own research that the 'illegitimate' birth status falls into 3 categories: those children NEVER legitimized (parents never married); marriages that occurred AFTER conception but BEFORE the child was born (usually considered legitimate from birth); and marriages that occurred AFTER the child was born (child born illegitimate, but "legitimized" after the parents finally married). In general, there was not as much stigma as one would think, to being born to a couple who were not married at the time of conception. "Illegitimacy was a common occurrence in Western Europe in the 1700 and 1800s, although rates varied widely. Children conceived before marriage were much more common. For example, while only two to four percent of births in England in the late 1700s were illegitimate, thirty-seven percent of first births to a couple followed pre-marital conception. Rates varied from place to place. In 1820, illegitimacy rates in Germany as a whole fell just under twelve percent of all live births. In 1850, about seven percent of births in France were illegitimate, while eleven percent of those in Denmark were. Despite the abundance of illegitimacy, children born to unmarried parents still experienced some setbacks early in life. For one thing, laws often discriminated against them. In many areas, illegitimate children couldn't inherit property. However, if the parents married later many of the limitations didn't apply anymore. Illegitimate children also had a higher infant mortality rate. Illegitimacy in the 1700 and 1800s took on a much different appearance than illegitimacy today. Although it was common for couples who weren't married to have children, it was uncommon for these couples not to marry eventually. In essence, many illegitimate children were born into family units, although their families lacked the official blessing of the state church. These couples often lived together and considered themselves families at the time of the child's birth. Couples delayed marriages for several reasons. Sometimes, they didn't have the money to pay the marriage fee. Other times, the church was far away or the pastor wasn't easily accessible. Some German states, in an effort to control the booming population, placed legal restrictions on marriage, making it more difficult. And sometimes, the couple simply didn't feel that much concern about whether marriage or children came first. Peasant society had its own marriage customs apart from the customs of the state church. In earlier times, the community had viewed living together, making a commitment to one another, and especially having children as basically equivalent to getting married. Despite valiant efforts by churches, stamping out traditions and convincing people to first perform the ceremony in a church proved difficult. Karen Researching GAUNY, GAUNEY in France