Try www.tribalpages.com they will give you a free site within tribal pages or you can pay a small annual fee for a site that allows you a little more scope. Robyn Fulton www.rif1945.tribalpages.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "ann zeman" <annzeman@msn.com> To: <aberdeen@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 1:24 AM Subject: Re: [ABERDEEN] recording a name > And I still say that, if the software forces you to make any such >> choice, then there is something badly wrong with the software! >> Computers can be good servants, but they make bad masters. >> >> >> Gavin Bell > > > > Which encourages me to ask, where can I find a template for helping me > construct a family history tree (with all the hundreds of names, side > branches and intricacies) without recourse to commercial computer > programs? I have Family Tree Maker, which will put your tree and info on > line, and then charge people to look at it! I would like to have something > readable and searchable to put online on a free site. > Ann > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ABERDEEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I believe Alexander MILNE and family, Isabella Caroline and Alexina may well have been in Tyrie in the 1850 -1880 period. Is anyone able to help with anything about this family please? Thank you Mike from Kawerau NZ on holiday in Vancouver.

If anybody has had the dubious pleasure of looking back over old documents, and I am especially thinking now of the microfilm copies of old 19th century Irish Catholic parish records, its amazing that more mistranslations don't occur. Old Copperplate handwriting may look beautiful but it's often a nightmare to try and decipher..... Sometimes I think that there would be a business goldmine in training budding genealogists to unravel such scripts! Mary

2009/10/5 M Keith Abel <kabel@kingston.net> wrote > Obvious typographical errors do not represent a name spelling change and I > haven't bothered to record them, although I suppose anyone checking through > my references could be saved a lot of time if I did. For example there is > a group of Abels in IGI where the name is spelled Abol. Looking at the > original handwriting it is obvious that the writer used an individualistic > lower case "e" in which the letter is actually written sideways. It doesn't > look like an "o" but the transcriber took it down that way. Surely the > transcriber could have realized that the writer did not write "Baptisod" in > the same references. Hi Keith The writing you describe was known as Secretary Hand - or at least that's the way it is defined today. The lower case "e" does indeed look like a modern cursive handwritten "o" and transcribers can easily get confused. Many or even most letters can be misinterpreted if today's style is dominant in the transcriber's mind. Also, of course, they weren't looking at the word "Baptized" unless they were being very careful. The IGI used about 10,000 volunteers for their transcriptions so the results are bound to be variable. And this could mean a transcriber and a checker for a film might both be below par so the results could be bowdlerised throughout that film. > Just one reason that after finding a reference in IGI, it is necessary to > go back to the original record. Yes indeed! > > ... I communicate between computers by means of diskettes. > =:-O -- Best wishes Ray ********************************************************** >From Ray Hennessy Forenames website: www.whatsinaname.net Preferred Email address: ray@whatsinaname.net Hints for Scotland's People at http://bit.ly/WIAN-SCP **********************************************************

Thanks for that Gavin, have a new computer and somehow the site did not get transferred from the old. Colleen > Colleen wrote: > >>Is it possible that the christian name Agnes can also be Ann, Nancy or >>Mary? >> >> > > Not sure about Mary, but I suspect the others may be interchangeable. > You can check this and many other questions regarding forenames at Ray > Hennessy's very useful site: > > http://www.whatsinaname.net/ > > > Gavin Bell

Sometimes you just 'luck out' and get the whole story, other times you get nothing. Luck of the draw, as the cowboys say. Be thankful when you do find good stuff!! Mother's way back when didn't mean much in the overall of things, at least to the Session Clerks who did the recording. It was Man's world. You just hope when you view the films, the clerk is going to go 'someplace' and be replaced by someone with a bit more thought to what is going on. And it does happen. Goldie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Legarth" <legarthm@levin.pl.net> To: <aberdeen@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 5:12 PM Subject: [ABERDEEN] Missing Mothers > Hello Janet, > I can only reply ,there must have been an epidemic of Death in Childbirth. > As I mentioned, it seemed to me, when reading some Parish records there > were some 'Scribes , be it the Clerk, or the Minister , page after page > simply left out the name of the Mother. > Then sometimes she would be noted in subsequent Baptisms, along with > other > Mothers of Infants, when it was obvious from the change of handwriting > that there was a change of recorder, Clerk or Minister. > > Other records have given just an amazing amount of information. > A Banffshire record gave me 3 generations. Both sets of Grandparents > named, > frequently a Sibling of the Father of the child, occupations & places of > residence of all names, all in one Baptism. > It is a matter of luck, for which I was so grateful. > > Mary > > -----Original Message----- > From: aberdeen-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aberdeen-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Janet > Sent: Monday, 5 October 2009 10:33 p.m. > To: aberdeen@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [ABERDEEN] Missing Mothers > > The mother might have died in childbirth. > > Janet > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mary Legarth" <legarthm@levin.pl.net> > > | In my experience it is a matter of luck, whether or not the name of the > | Mother is noted. > | Whoever recorded the Baptism may have considered the Head of the House > the > | only important name, to be recorded along with that of the child. > | > | Then the handwriting may change , after a few years in the records, > | & the Baptism records have detail, i.e. who the child is named after > , > | occupation of the Father , places of residence of the parents, > | Mary > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ABERDEEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Ann, I teach a seminar on "Managing your Family Records on the Internet". In the seminar I encourage the use of RootsWeb WorldConnect. http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/ Although it is supported by Ancestry.com, it is totally free and free of any additional charges. I was terribly annoyed by Genes Reunited when I had to pay to see my own data, and insisted they remove my data. You have complete control of a RootsWeb WorldConnect submittal. You can specify the "cleansing" parameters, as well as many other display and download options. You can even specify if it is available for public view or not. If not for public view, it is still an excellent off-site backup of your data. (If you download a copy it is exactly as you uploaded it, not the "cleansed" version.) You can delete it if you want (something you cannot do on data burnt to CDs, such as Family Tree Maker's World Family Trees and LDS's Pedigree Resource Files.) At 06:09 PM 10/5/2009, you wrote: >From: "ann zeman" <annzeman@msn.com> >Subject: Re: [ABERDEEN] recording a name >To: <aberdeen@rootsweb.com> > >And I still say that, if the software forces you to make any such > > choice, then there is something badly wrong with the software! > > Computers can be good servants, but they make bad masters. > > > > > > Gavin Bell > > > >Which encourages me to ask, where can I find a template for helping me >construct a family history tree (with all the hundreds of names, side >branches and intricacies) without recourse to commercial computer programs? >I have Family Tree Maker, which will put your tree and info on line, and >then charge people to look at it! I would like to have something readable >and searchable to put online on a free site. >Ann ____________________________________________________________ Best Weight Loss Program - Click Here! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/fc/BLSrjpYSwrFzmshcdNAdsosoj12spU8YKlTaqh7lobPwfhTkgXVflQ1AY4A/

Gordon Johnson wrote: >... >So, deciding what spelling to use as the standard in a database is a >personal choice, with variant spellings noted in the "notes" page for >that person. > > And I still say that, if the software forces you to make any such choice, then there is something badly wrong with the software! Computers can be good servants, but they make bad masters. Gavin Bell

Wendy Main wrote: >Hi > >My husband and I travelled to Aberdeen in August and we have questions on what had happened to a building which looks like it was a church to the east of Denburn Road and between Union Street and Rosemount Viaduct. It looks like it is being rebuilt. Also, what it might have been originally? > > I nearly said: "There is no such place as Denburn Road!" but then checked my town plan. This apparently is what they have called the new dual carriageway which runs beneath Union Bridge beside the railway. The reason I didn't recognise the name is that there are no buildings on it, and most Aberdonians know it better as "The Road to Nowhere", having been built at great expense to carry scarcely any traffic. That established, I suspect what you may have seen is the sorry wreck of the former "Triple Kirks", on the corner of Belmont Street and Schoolhill. This was (since much of it has been torn down) a very unusual building for Aberdeen, because the 3 kirks and their shared steeple were built in brick. It was originally built (in 1844) for the East, West and South congregations of the Free Kirk, which split from the Kirk of Scotland in 1843. Only the buildings of the former East Free Kirk remain standing, being used now as a pub and dance studio. The other parts were torn down over 30 years ago, and since then, various proposals for redevelopment have come to nothing. Gavin Bell

** This idea that we should never, never, alter a name to a modern version, is a decision that has reprecussions for people searching for a family whose name has been written down in different spelling at different times. Unless they have specialist knowledge, they are likely to not find many of their relatives as they are unaware of these variant spellings. We have to remember that as you go back in time the number of people who were illiterate continues to grow, until the time when even the monoarch was illiterate and depended on clerics (the origin of our modern word clerk) for writing things down. When someone other than yourself writes down information about you, and you are yourself illiterate, you have no choice or say in the spelling utilised. Thus the records are full of spellings which were written down to reflect how the name SOUNDED when said by the speaker. Many of these were never used by the person they applied to, and so one cannot claim that these spellings showed usage by that family at that time. Even where the person was able to write his own name, the concept of "standard" or "correct" spelling of any word or name did not apply back then. It was only the advent of dictionaries that brought about the idea that there should be a "correct" spelling, and it took a long time to percolate through the community. I remember my father telling me "Our JOHNSON surname has always been written without a T in it." Yet when I did our family research, once I got back to around 1800, all the records of our family showed up as JOHNSTON , with even a Johnston marrying a Johnston! What we have to get over to people doing family research is that names can be spelled in different ways, and two branches of the same family may elect to spell the surname differently. Does Elliott have two ls or one; two ts or one, for example? What about names that can appear in a Gaelic or English version: Farquharson or Ferguson? Getting back to the time when many scribes wrote in Latin, does the Latin version or English/Scots version take precedence? When Scots soldiers were mercenaries on the continent, records of them are often found in the Dutch language, or French. Should they remain untranslated? If you are tracing back Frasers far enough, you find that they started as the Norman "de Frisselle", which is the origin also of the Scots surname Frizzell. So, deciding what spelling to use as the standard in a database is a personal choice, with variant spellings noted in the "notes" page for that person. Gordon Johnson

Janet and Ray: Looking at the responses to name spelling I have done a bit of reflecting. Obvious typographical errors do not represent a name spelling change and I haven't bothered to record them, although I suppose anyone checking through my references could be saved a lot of time if I did. For example there is a group of Abels in IGI where the name is spelled Abol. Looking at the original handwriting it is obvious that the writer used an individualistic lower case "e" in which the letter is actually written sideways. It doesn't look like an "o" but the transcriber took it down that way. Surely the transcriber could have realized that the writer did not write "Baptisod" in the same references. Just one reason that after finding a reference in IGI, it is necessary to go back to the original record. Similarly after a massive search I found the reason I couldn't find "Hazard" in the index to marriages in the Province of Ontario Marriage records was that the transcriber had written "Maryford". I can imagine that the H looked like an M and the z looked like an ry but the f had to be pure invention. Recording the spelling of names in their original form has never been a problem for me (except in alphabetic indexes that I am prepared to live with). I am not sure I understand Janet's difficulties. I forget where but I have one family with three different spellings amongst the siblings. It might look "funny" but the problem is small. Incidentally I am using the original PAF version 2.3 in an equally antique 386 operating under DOS 6.0. This program won't operate properly with windows. It can't execute a data sort with windows in the way) This has the advantage of being safe from the visicitudes of viruses, worms and Trojan horses. I communicate between computers by means of diskettes. M Keith Abel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janet" <wightway@clara.co.uk> To: <aberdeen@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 5:45 AM Subject: Re: [ABERDEEN] Recording a name. > Hi Ray, Now that's interesting. I use the free PAF and have thought for a > while that I ought to purchase another package but, which one, because its > natural to want it to do everything that one might need and its not > possible to know at the time of purchase because we learn as we go along, > and find as I have that what I am using is not going to do it effectively. > It was for the reason that you and Keith have mentioned, that a name > should be "preserved" in its original spelling, that made me ask. In > time one might learn how to preserve it. > It is along the lines you have stated I have been thinking since I made > the first post. > It needs a Source for a "Name" I think alongside the birth record rather > than in PAF the Individual Sources > button s = sources against the birth, christening, marriage separately and > death and burial and the "Individual Sources for census and other > information. Putting the original name in Individual Sources it would be > lost. Making a Name Source against a birth I think is the best one can > achieve in PAF. Thanks for what you have found so far. > > Janet > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ray Hennessy" <ray7033@googlemail.com> > | > | Hi Janet > | > | I don't know about other packages but Family Tree Maker allows you to > enter > | an "Alternate Fact" for many items of personal data, including the name > of > | the person, with a "Citation" for where it occurred. It is stored as a > | "Note" but you can state a preference for which is to be displayed on > the > | Family View. I have just done this as a test but haven't examined how > | usable this feature is, e.g. whether one can index on the un-preferred > | fact. I suggest you look at your genealogy package for this or a > similar > | feature and experiment with it. > | > | In relation to Gavin's note, in FTM although a child's surname defaults > to > | the father's surname you can change it to any value. So if, say, > McCrumbie > | changes to MacCrumb, FTM lets you designate it thus. Of course this is > | mostly used for assigning the mother's surname to a child born to > unmarried > | parents. We have two cases where the name changes between the parental > | names from one census to the next and, in one case, back again for the > | following census. > | > | And as Keith Abel says, we should never, never amend historic versions > to > | the "correct" modern spelling. E.g. Since WW2 there have been over 20 > ways > | HENNESSY has been spelt in my family on official and unofficial records. > | None has more credibility as a "correct" version than most of the > others. > | [ENERSEA was an extreme aberration!!] > | > | -- > | Best wishes > | > | Ray

Is it possible that the christian name Agnes can also be Ann, Nancy or Mary? Have been tracking a very elusive woman that came to NZ in 1875 as Agnes but the only Scottish census and Birth and Marriage entries that I can find that fit all other criteria are for the names mentioned above. Colleen Auckland NZ

The general rule of thumb is to record the name the way it appeared in the record. If there are other options for the spelling, they can be listed in the notes or facts under "Also known as" (AKA). Most genealogy programs assume that when you enter the information about a father, this surname will be the spelled the same as the child's, and vice versa. When it's not, I change it to match what the original record says -- just a little quirk of mine... Which ever way you enter the name for each individual, it will appear that way in any gedcom you create. The gedcom can only read the data that is in your file and code it so another genealogy program can open it. It doesn't change anything. One of my ancestral surnames is SIGGESWICK. I found the name spelled 18 different ways in the records of the same parish over a period of about 100 years between the late 1600s and late 1700s. A father brought a child to the church for baptism, he told the clerk the name, and the clerk wrote what he heard. On that paternal line, the surname spelling changes each generation, and not all the children in any family group have their surnames spelled the same. That's one of the things that makes genealogy fun and challenging. Venita On Oct 4, 2009, at 1:49 PM, Janet wrote: > Many of us have names in our ancestry that have several variations. > Some of those > variations date back to originality, some are more common in usage. > It is easier to record > a forename or Christian name with a variation, but family names with > a variation are more > difficult, probably because of the importance of it. Should we > record the historical > variation of a family name in a GEDCOM file if we have proven it by > paper record or have > learned more about its historical background? What if its not the > name used by our > nearest ancestor? Will someone who has studied genealogy advise. > What is the correct way > of making such an entry? > > Janet > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ABERDEEN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

Thanks Robyn, it looks great. Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robyn Fulton" <jrfulton@bigpond.net.au> To: <aberdeen@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 10:04 AM Subject: Re: [ABERDEEN] recording a name > Try www.tribalpages.com they will give you a free site within tribal pages > or you can pay a small annual fee for a site that allows you a little more > scope. > > Robyn Fulton > www.rif1945.tribalpages.com

Janet wrote: >| >| There is, in many cases, no single "correct" version of many surnames, >| so whatever means we choose to record our genealogies should be capable >| of accommodating such variations. If the software packages we use are >| not sufficiently flexible to do so, then perhaps we should not regard >| GEDCOM (or any other software resource) as the principal repository of >| our family histories. > >Do you suggest an alternative principal repository? > > As a long-time user of computers, I would not make any computerised system the "principal repository" of my genealogy. Quite apart from their propensity to lose large volumes of data, computers have a lamentable track-record in archival terms because of the seemingly inevitable obsolescence of their storage media. I first started using computers in the late 1970s, and since then, I can think of ten or a dozen different storage formats which have been superseded by "newer, better" devices, leaving inaccessible any data held on them, and there are serious technological doubts on the longevity of any magnetic or laser storage format.. In contrast, written or printed documents commonly survive for hundreds (and in some cases for thousands) of years. They seem to me a better bet. Gavin Bell

Hi Ray, Now that's interesting. I use the free PAF and have thought for a while that I ought to purchase another package but, which one, because its natural to want it to do everything that one might need and its not possible to know at the time of purchase because we learn as we go along, and find as I have that what I am using is not going to do it effectively. It was for the reason that you and Keith have mentioned, that a name should be "preserved" in its original spelling, that made me ask. In time one might learn how to preserve it. It is along the lines you have stated I have been thinking since I made the first post. It needs a Source for a "Name" I think alongside the birth record rather than in PAF the Individual Sources button s = sources against the birth, christening, marriage separately and death and burial and the "Individual Sources for census and other information. Putting the original name in Individual Sources it would be lost. Making a Name Source against a birth I think is the best one can achieve in PAF. Thanks for what you have found so far. Janet ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Hennessy" <ray7033@googlemail.com> | | Hi Janet | | I don't know about other packages but Family Tree Maker allows you to enter | an "Alternate Fact" for many items of personal data, including the name of | the person, with a "Citation" for where it occurred. It is stored as a | "Note" but you can state a preference for which is to be displayed on the | Family View. I have just done this as a test but haven't examined how | usable this feature is, e.g. whether one can index on the un-preferred | fact. I suggest you look at your genealogy package for this or a similar | feature and experiment with it. | | In relation to Gavin's note, in FTM although a child's surname defaults to | the father's surname you can change it to any value. So if, say, McCrumbie | changes to MacCrumb, FTM lets you designate it thus. Of course this is | mostly used for assigning the mother's surname to a child born to unmarried | parents. We have two cases where the name changes between the parental | names from one census to the next and, in one case, back again for the | following census. | | And as Keith Abel says, we should never, never amend historic versions to | the "correct" modern spelling. E.g. Since WW2 there have been over 20 ways | HENNESSY has been spelt in my family on official and unofficial records. | None has more credibility as a "correct" version than most of the others. | [ENERSEA was an extreme aberration!!] | | -- | Best wishes | | Ray

The mother might have died in childbirth. Janet ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Legarth" <legarthm@levin.pl.net> | In my experience it is a matter of luck, whether or not the name of the | Mother is noted. | Whoever recorded the Baptism may have considered the Head of the House the | only important name, to be recorded along with that of the child. | | Then the handwriting may change , after a few years in the records, | & the Baptism records have detail, i.e. who the child is named after , | occupation of the Father , places of residence of the parents, | Mary

| Janet wrote: to which Gavin replied | | >Many of us have names in our ancestry that have several variations. Some of those | >variations date back to originality, some are more common in usage. | | Sorry, what does that mean? *** As you state, surnames do not "remain constant between generations". Some names we have today, I am told, are Hugenot, or Norman English. I have one, with about 15 variations in use over the time when I am able to trace with some certainty. In more modern times, a name gets changed because that's the way it looks on paper. | >It is easier to record a forename or Christian name with a variation, but family names with a variation are more | >difficult, probably because of the importance of it. Should we record the historical variation of a family name | > in a GEDCOM file if we have proven it by paper record or have learned more about its historical back | > ground? What if its not the name used by our nearest ancestor? Will someone who has studied genealogy | >advise. What is the correct way of making such an entry? | | I think there is a danger of letting the tail wag the dog here. GEDCOM | (and the genealogical programs that can read or write files based on it) | are useful resources, but they do rather tend to assume that surnames | remain constant between generations, which is not an accurate reflection | of the real historical situation. *** This is why I asked, should someone know how to process the record | | There is, in many cases, no single "correct" version of many surnames, | so whatever means we choose to record our genealogies should be capable | of accommodating such variations. If the software packages we use are | not sufficiently flexible to do so, then perhaps we should not regard | GEDCOM (or any other software resource) as the principal repository of | our family histories. Do you suggest an alternative principal repository? Janet

It was for all the reasons and more that you mention that caused me to ask. The results of a report cant be got round, but as you say, I agree also that changing spellings to a modern used name is just not right. Time causes change and sometimes not for the better. In software I think there ought to be a place where name change can be recorded. Perhaps its in a Source for name change against the birth of a person that would be reflected in a Report. I cant see any other way. Janet ----- Original Message ----- From: "M Keith Abel" <kabel@kingston.net> | Janet: | | I spell all names the way the person bearing the name would have spelled it, | if he could spell. | | When several records for the same person have variations in spelling I | choose the one that reflects the way he/she would have spelled it in | adulthood. | | It is true this can wreck havoc in an alphabetic index of names in a report | but it can't be helped. I consider changing spellings to a modern | equivalent is an impertinence. | | M Keith Abel

Colleen wrote: >Is it possible that the christian name Agnes can also be Ann, Nancy or Mary? > > Not sure about Mary, but I suspect the others may be interchangeable. You can check this and many other questions regarding forenames at Ray Hennessy's very useful site: http://www.whatsinaname.net/ Gavin Bell