Kia said: > Another thing to remember is the the person involved in the event (baptism of Simon's child) probably wasn't checking on the person recording the event (clerk/vicar/etc) and so the clerk may have written NICHOL instead of NICOL and Simon was none the wiser. I'm sure he wouldn't ask to check that the entry had been done to his satisfaction. > The clerk may have assumed that the name was spelled with a "H" as he knew someone that spelled it that way. ** As I mentioned in another post, many of the name variants are as a result of the parent of the child being illiterate, amd so unable to correct any variant spelling used in the register; but you also have the situation that most entries were written up some time after the event (hours or even days later), which is why we find so many entries with the child's name left blank - beceause the minister has forgotten the child's name; and sometimes one of the parents is wrongly named due to there being others of the same surname in the parish. It is indeed seldom that the entry would be examined by the parents. Incidentally, "vicar" is a term not normally used in Scotland since Reformation, the word "minister" being the norm in most presbyterian denominations. Scottish Episcopal Churches used the term "Priest". Gordon.

Hi Sandy, There has just been some interesting discussion on this very topic - it would be worth you looking at the archives for the last week or so. Women were often regarded as completely irrelevant by the clerk. But do remember also that it's not the birth that is being recorded (the birth was irrelevant to the church except in cases of illegitimacy), but the baptism. It may well be that it was only the father who took the child to be baptised if the mother was still in childbed, or it may simply be that he was seen as the only parent worth recording. As someone previously said, often a change of clerk means a complete change in the detail recorded - sometimes we are lucky, and sometimes not! Most of the OPRs that I have consulted are easy to read but rather short on the sort of details we would consider important - but then (unfortunately) they weren't writing with us in mind! Louise Sandy wrote: > never once does he > recorded the name of the mother. > This practice of not recording mothers is also found in the Benholm OPR at > this time.  Maybe women were not considered that relevant when recording > births?

This is my first post to this Lists but I have posted the message below to other Lists. Apologies if you have read it already. I’m currently focusing on FREEMAN which is my maternal family line.  I'm the eldest son of Mary FREEMAN, youngest daughter of Walter FREEMAN who married Isabella ADAM of Johnshaven in Benholm Parish 27th Aug,1898.  Mary MACKIE FREEMAN married Alexander [aka Sandy ] PITTENDREIGH 11th Sept 1937 in Benholm Parish, Kincardineshire I have my PITTENDREIGH line back to William PTTENDREIGH who married Helen CATTO 15 June 1818 in Udny Parish.  I would obviously like to take this line further back and locate William’s parents for a start.  I’m happy to share data with anyone else researching this line?   Had much more success with my FREEMAN line which Itake back to John FREEMAN who married Isobel JEAMIE 1st April, 1681 Bervie Parish.  But I have hit an irritating problem.  Their son, Alexander, my Gx5 grandfather who was baptised in Bervie Parish 30th Aug 1691 was obviously 'married' in the early 1700s, but to whom?  The Bervie OPR records him fathering six LAWFUL children between 1713 & 1728. The same clerk, I can tell by the hand writing, who recorded all six baptisms lists him as a fisherman in Gourdon, but never once does he recorded the name of the mother. This practice of not recording mothers is also found in the Benholm OPR at this time.  Maybe women were not considered that relevant when recording births? Searching for a marriage in Scotlandspeople from the Parish of Kinneff south to St Cyrus shows only one Alexander FREEMAN marriage in this period: An Alexander FREEMAN married an Elspet CORMAK in Kinneff & Catterline in 1725 but this  marriage is too late for all but the last child born 1728. There are no death records to search for this area in this period and hope of finding an MI listing Alexander’s spouse that far back in Benholm or Bervie graveyards seems like wishful thinking. Any suggests? Sandy

Hi I have instances where the surname for an individual can vary over the different records and as it is unclear from this distance which is the "correct" spelling I use the most used spelling for the file but in the reference note I add an addendum to state that the name was spelt .... so that anybody looking up that particular record will know which variant to look for. this has seemed to work fine so far. regards Pauline Melbourne

Ray, The "more" box is just to the right of where you enter the person's name. >> > > Hi Barb > > Well, I'd love to use this but I can't find a "More" box. Could you > re-identify it for me [very tired brain cell!] > _____________________________________________ > This was in reply to: > 2009/10/6 Thomas Waskett <Thomaswaskett@aol.com> wrote: > >> For example Jane is sometimes recorded as Jean >> Windham Dean as an adult was known as Wyndham Warren. > > Hi Thomas > > If Barb's point doesn't apply for your package, you can probably enter > "Jean > or Jane" and "Windham DEAN or Wynham WARREN" in the relevant boxes. In > the > latter case you would have to be careful to get any children's names > right! > > Note that Jean and Jane are interchangeable in virtually all Scottish > records but the principle applies. > > -- > Best wishes > > Ray > > ********************************************************** >>From Ray Hennessy > Forenames website: www.whatsinaname.net > Preferred Email address: ray@whatsinaname.net > Hints for Scotland's People at http://bit.ly/WIAN-SCP > ********************************************************** > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ABERDEEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Mary, I agree with you. I count myself lucky with information such as you have found. I think death in childbirth was at one time in epidemic proportions. I found this about 19th century Britain which has some useful links to other information as each paragraph is set out. http://www.localhistories.org/19thcent.html I then searched for information about Scotland in particular http://www.scran.ac.uk/scotland/pdf/SP2_3Health.pdf which has some interesting facts. >From my own family research it appears to me that those who were in farming survived more and maintained their new born children more than those in towns and cities, probably for obvious reasons of nature but also, as SCRAN states, the rate of infectious disease amongst those in overcrowded accommodation. My paternal Gt grandfather outlived 3 wives. His 3rd was my grandmother, already pregnant when they married, not unusual, returning to his former matrimonial home. ;-) Their first child a daughter died within 5 months, the second was my father, and there was a 3rd, a son who survived until aged 2 and my grandmother died of puerperal fever, in childbirth, which was apparently an epidemic in Aberdeen. http://fds.oup.com/www.oup.co.uk/pdf/0-19-820499-X.pdf Janet ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Legarth" <legarthm@levin.pl.net> | Hello Janet, | I can only reply ,there must have been an epidemic of Death in Childbirth. | As I mentioned, it seemed to me, when reading some Parish records there | were some 'Scribes , be it the Clerk, or the Minister , page after page | simply left out the name of the Mother. | Then sometimes she would be noted in subsequent Baptisms, along with other | Mothers of Infants, when it was obvious from the change of handwriting | that there was a change of recorder, Clerk or Minister. | | Other records have given just an amazing amount of information. | A Banffshire record gave me 3 generations. Both sets of Grandparents named, | frequently a Sibling of the Father of the child, occupations & places of | residence of all names, all in one Baptism. | It is a matter of luck, for which I was so grateful. | | Mary

To record all the names found for any individual click on the "more" square and when the new page comes up--off to the right is a line of boxes, click on the "Lineage" box and use the AKA line to record all the other known names or spellings. Barb ----- Original Message ----- From: <Thomaswaskett@aol.com> To: <aberdeen@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [ABERDEEN] recording an alternate name > > > I use FTM software and would like to add alternate names which can appear > in the index. How do I do this? > > For example Jane is sometimes recorded as Jean > For example Windham Dean as an adult was known as Wyndham Warren. > > Thomas > researching STRACHAN from Fyvie > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ABERDEEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I use FTM software and would like to add alternate names which can appear in the index. How do I do this? For example Jane is sometimes recorded as Jean For example Windham Dean as an adult was known as Wyndham Warren. Thomas researching STRACHAN from Fyvie

Although not relevant to the ABD list, I had Norwegian & French, seamen g grandfathers who anglicized their names and had no idea how to display these in my family tree, so I gave their anglicized names in the headings and made notes in FTM 'NOTES' that their original names were....and showed that their names had been anglicized to the names shown on the tree. I also had the same problem with my CHALMERS/STUART of Aberdeen ancestry as my gg grandfather was born a CHALMERS his mother never married but the Kirk Session records showed that his father's name was STUART and later William changed his name from Chalmers to Stuart, so I entered as a Stuart and put in the notes he was born a Chalmers. I have no idea if this is correct but it does show both names as being recorded. Cheers Joan > There doesn't seem to be one "standard" way to do this. > Some people record the name as it was used at the time. > Others record them with the current/most common form and then put the > spelling(s) used at the time in a note. -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 465 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message

No particular difficulty as such, more that I asked the question because I thought it might bring forth some useful hints and tips and cause an interest in others. We quite often correct an error in the spelling of our own name nowadays. We also ask "How do you spell that (your name) if we are uncertain". I share the view that it is important to attribute a name correctly and at the same time I think we have a duty to note down our findings about name variations. I'm guilty as charged that I have never viewed - had the opportunity to view - film but I do purchase copies of official documents. >From what I have seen of responses it has indeed caused thought in others who have shared their knowledge, and provided us with some useful information. I use PAF 5.5 which is the most up to date English version. I have a full list of Individual Source headings, Census, Certificates, Parish records, Obituaries, to name a few, and realised that a family name ought not to be lost under the alphabetical list of Sources and comment, but be more prominent in the same way as a birth, christening, marriage, death and burial which is key information about our ancestry. Janet ----- Original Message ----- From: "M Keith Abel" <kabel@kingston.net> > Janet and Ray: > > Looking at the responses to name spelling I have done a bit of reflecting. > > Obvious typographical errors do not represent a name spelling change and I > haven't bothered to record them, although I suppose anyone checking through > my references could be saved a lot of time if I did. For example there is > a group of Abels in IGI where the name is spelled Abol. Looking at the > original handwriting it is obvious that the writer used an individualistic > lower case "e" in which the letter is actually written sideways. It doesn't > look like an "o" but the transcriber took it down that way. Surely the > transcriber could have realized that the writer did not write "Baptisod" in > the same references. Just one reason that after finding a reference in IGI, > it is necessary to go back to the original record. Similarly after a > massive search I found the reason I couldn't find "Hazard" in the index to > marriages in the Province of Ontario Marriage records was that the > transcriber had written "Maryford". I can imagine that the H looked like an > M and the z looked like an ry but the f had to be pure invention. > > Recording the spelling of names in their original form has never been a > problem for me (except in alphabetic indexes that I am prepared to live > with). I am not sure I understand Janet's difficulties. I forget where but > I have one family with three different spellings amongst the siblings. It > might look "funny" but the problem is small. > > Incidentally I am using the original PAF version 2.3 in an equally antique > 386 operating under DOS 6.0. This program won't operate properly with > windows. It can't execute a data sort with windows in the way) This has the > advantage of being safe from the visicitudes of viruses, worms and Trojan > horses. I communicate between computers by means of diskettes. > > M Keith Abel

Ann, My pleasure, I have found it to be as good as any available, and you have the choice of keeping it private or completely open but no living dates are shown. As you can see if you go to my site I have 1 paid webpage and 1 free attached with a link. It is easy to manage and they have help available to members. Robyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "ann zeman" <annzeman@msn.com> To: <aberdeen@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 6:07 AM Subject: Re: [ABERDEEN] recording a name > Thanks Robyn, it looks great. > Ann > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robyn Fulton" <jrfulton@bigpond.net.au> > To: <aberdeen@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 10:04 AM > Subject: Re: [ABERDEEN] recording a name > > >> Try www.tribalpages.com they will give you a free site within tribal >> pages >> or you can pay a small annual fee for a site that allows you a little >> more >> scope. >> >> Robyn Fulton >> www.rif1945.tribalpages.com > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ABERDEEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I can't speak for all family history software but I use FTM and that can easily be accomplished. You can add alternative names for anyone. My grandfather was adopted and his record in my tree has both of his names (birth name and adopted name). You can also add an AKA to someone. So in this example you could create a record using Simon Mulvenny, add alternative names of Simon Nicol and Simon Nichol and even give him an AKA of "George" if it was applicable. You can choose which name you want to have the person indexed by by setting it as a "default". You can then add a note to any "event" or "fact" to state which name was used at that time. I have many where I have a note on their birth entry to say that the name was recorded as (for example) COLLINS, although the family used COLLINGS at the time. The same person may also have a note on the marriage entry that the name used there was COLLYNS. Another thing to remember is the the person involved in the event (baptism of Simon's child) probably wasn't checking on the person recording the event (clerk/vicar/etc) and so the clerk may have written NICHOL instead of NICOL and Simon was none the wiser. I'm sure he wouldn't ask to check that the entry had been done to his satisfaction. The clerk may have assumed that the name was spelled with a "H" as he knew someone that spelled it that way. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Gordon Johnson" <gordon@kinhelp.co.uk> Subject: Re: [ABERDEEN] recording a name Here is one of these "difficult" occasions: A sailor named Mulvenny, supposed pressganged and eventually ending up at Ferryden, Angus, decides to stay. Simon Mulvenny of Montrose and Jean Anderson of Craig parish are married in 1799. He appears as "Nichol alias Mulvenny" in 1808 and 1817, but by the 1841 census he appears as Simon Nicol. His first child is baptised under Nicol in 1800, his second under Nichol and third under Nicol. So he changed his name from Mulvenny to Nicol/Nichol shortly after marriage (possibly to avoid being found again by the pressgang), but officials still include the "alias Mulvenny" in registers for some time afterwards. Genealogical software doesn't appear to be able to cope with such name changes and variants, so we have to do what we can within these limitations. Gordon Johnson.

Hello Janet, I can only reply ,there must have been an epidemic of Death in Childbirth. As I mentioned, it seemed to me, when reading some Parish records there were some 'Scribes , be it the Clerk, or the Minister , page after page simply left out the name of the Mother. Then sometimes she would be noted in subsequent Baptisms, along with other Mothers of Infants, when it was obvious from the change of handwriting that there was a change of recorder, Clerk or Minister. Other records have given just an amazing amount of information. A Banffshire record gave me 3 generations. Both sets of Grandparents named, frequently a Sibling of the Father of the child, occupations & places of residence of all names, all in one Baptism. It is a matter of luck, for which I was so grateful. Mary -----Original Message----- From: aberdeen-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aberdeen-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janet Sent: Monday, 5 October 2009 10:33 p.m. To: aberdeen@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ABERDEEN] Missing Mothers The mother might have died in childbirth. Janet ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Legarth" <legarthm@levin.pl.net> | In my experience it is a matter of luck, whether or not the name of the | Mother is noted. | Whoever recorded the Baptism may have considered the Head of the House the | only important name, to be recorded along with that of the child. | | Then the handwriting may change , after a few years in the records, | & the Baptism records have detail, i.e. who the child is named after , | occupation of the Father , places of residence of the parents, | Mary

Here is one of these "difficult" occasions: A sailor named Mulvenny, supposed pressganged and eventually ending up at Ferryden, Angus, decides to stay. Simon Mulvenny of Montrose and Jean Anderson of Craig parish are married in 1799. He appears as "Nichol alias Mulvenny" in 1808 and 1817, but by the 1841 census he appears as Simon Nicol. His first child is baptised under Nicol in 1800, his second under Nichol and third under Nicol. So he changed his name from Mulvenny to Nicol/Nichol shortly after marriage (possibly to avoid being found again by the pressgang), but officials still include the "alias Mulvenny" in registers for some time afterwards. Genealogical software doesn't appear to be able to cope with such name changes and variants, so we have to do what we can within these limitations. Gordon Johnson.

The Master Genealogist (TMG) from Wholly Genes allows for "name variations" as they have called the "tag" that one uses to record this. I use it all the time to record that at x date y was called/named z. You can record any part of the name, or the whole. It allows for one "primary" name, but will index all variations if you chose that setup. It has the same feature for many of the other data tags. Depending upon what reporting you require, these tags will print in date order, so you get a chronological report for all (or some of) the events. I find it a very powerful and flexible piece of kit - and not desperately expensive. And although a US product, there is a UK version. TMG can be seen here http://www.whollygenes.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?screen=TMG Pat Gavin Bell wrote: <[snip]> This bears out my point about "the tail wagging the dog". The software is forcing you to decide that he was called the one thing or the other, when, as you know, he was called both, but at different points in his life. <[snip]>

Gavin, "Cleansing" is the term used to remove from view those people in your online family tree that might still be alive. This would cover the European 100-year secrecy laws, as well as the American 72-year courtesy rule. In RW WorldConnect you can choose to not show a person that might be alive (no death date entered) or show only the surname with the given name as "Private" with no dates or additional information. In the USA we have no 100-year secrecy law, in fact it would be difficult to have one. It is common practice to have births and marriages, as well as deaths, announced in the newspapers, which puts that information into public domain. It is only a courtesy that we do not show living people. Fred At 10:50 AM 10/6/2009, you wrote: >From: Gavin Bell <g.bell@which.net> >Subject: Re: [ABERDEEN] recording a name >To: aberdeen@rootsweb.com >Message-ID: <4ACAF763.9030300@which.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > >Fred H Held wrote: > > >... > > > >You have complete control of a RootsWeb WorldConnect submittal. You > >can specify the "cleansing" parameters, as well as many other display > >and download options. > > > >I don't like the sound of "cleansing". What does this do? > > >Gavin Bell ____________________________________________________________ See the difference professional window cleaning can make. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/fc/BLSrjpYWvrYmgz8Ij3I4GElYOVhfjM8MHYb0BXHM87EQrEQYNXCJFj0N5Hy/

I share Gavin's reservations about "allowing" software to set parameters, though my solution is admittedly rather extreme. I don't use genealogical software at all. All my data is in WordPerfect, which allows me to record and to format (manually!) pretty much as I see fit. Of course, I lose the ease of sorting, all the automatic functions, the charts, shareability via GEDCOMS etc. And WordPerfect is gradually being pushed out of the market (and so I back-up in Word ...). But given that I'm primarily interested in historical, social and cultural context, I generate a lot of text beyond names, dates and places, and so a word-processor is just the thing for me. I gladly trade the extra work for the control I get. So far,anyway ... Wm in Alberta, Canada

Joan Birtles wrote: >... > >I also had the same problem with my CHALMERS/STUART of Aberdeen ancestry as >my gg grandfather was born a CHALMERS his mother never married but the Kirk >Session records showed that his father's name was STUART and later William >changed his name from Chalmers to Stuart, so I entered as a Stuart and put >in the notes he was born a Chalmers. > > This bears out my point about "the tail wagging the dog". The software is forcing you to decide that he was called the one thing or the other, when, as you know, he was called both, but at different points in his life. It should not be beyond the wit of man to devise software which, while keeping track of the individual, would automatically show him as William CHALMERS as a child, but William STUART as a father. >I have no idea if this is correct but it does show both names as being >recorded. > > It sounds like the best your software will *allow* you to do. My point is that we shouldn't let the software dictate to us in this way! Gavin Bell

Fred H Held wrote: >... > >You have complete control of a RootsWeb WorldConnect submittal. You >can specify the "cleansing" parameters, as well as many other display >and download options. > I don't like the sound of "cleansing". What does this do? Gavin Bell

Mary Simpson wrote: >..... > >Sometimes I think that there would be a business goldmine in training >budding genealogists to unravel such scripts! > > I doubt it. Like various other abstruse skills (eg French Polishing) these things take half an hour to teach, but half a lifetime to learn. I have been transcribing 17th and 18th century documents (mostly in Secretary Hand) for something approaching 10 years, and I'm just beginning to think I've got the hang of it. Mind you, that doesn't mean I can decipher everything, just that, when I get stuck, the professionally-trained archivists are often puzzled, too. Gavin Bell