There is a site of old Scots occupations and according to that vinter was a wine merchant. Barb

Re previous emails about the history of licencing law in Scotland, the following extract might be of interest. It comes from a2003 paper by Bruce Ritson entitled "ALCOHOL LICENSING LAWS: PROPOSALS FOR CHANGES IN SCOTTISH LAW" "In August 2003 the Nicholson Committee published areview of Licensing Law in Scotland (Nicholson Committee,2003). Licensing legislation has a long history in Scotland andits content has always differed significantly from that ofEngland. For a long period it was more restrictive, althoughnot so in recent years. The first licensing legislation, making ita requirement to register to sell alcohol, was introduced in1756. In l887, the Hours of Closing Act fixed closing time at10 p.m. in all but the largest cities. There was a gradualevolution of licensing laws during the 19th century,culminating in the Licensing Act (Scotland) in 1903. Theregulations imposed at that time persisted with some minorchanges, until the 1962 Acts that provided for standardpermitted hours for the whole of Scotland and for Sundayopening (largely restricted to hotels). In 1971, a committeeunder the chairmanship of Dr Christopher Clayson wasformed, with many of its conclusions incorporated into theLicensing (Scotland) Act 1976, which formed the basis oflicensing law to the present (Clayson Report, 1973). John Simpson

You are absolutely right. Presumably the Kirk Sessions had something to say about being intoxicated. Janet ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gavin Bell" <g.bell@which.net> To: <aberdeen@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 11:21 PM Subject: Re: [ABERDEEN] Davidson-vintner-Peterhead > Janet wrote: > >>As far as I can recall Licensing Laws were introduced in response to the Gin Epidemic of >>the 18th century when by 1740 there was more gin being produced than beer. Legislation >>was more successful than a tax on gin producers because it restricted its sale to >>licensed >>only premises. >> >> > > But I fancy that legislation applied to England, not to Scotland. > Licensing (for the sale of alcohol) has long been different in the two > countries. > > > Gavin Bell > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ABERDEEN-request@rootsweb.com with > the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Janet wrote: >As far as I can recall Licensing Laws were introduced in response to the Gin Epidemic of >the 18th century when by 1740 there was more gin being produced than beer. Legislation >was more successful than a tax on gin producers because it restricted its sale to licensed >only premises. > > But I fancy that legislation applied to England, not to Scotland. Licensing (for the sale of alcohol) has long been different in the two countries. Gavin Bell

As far as I can recall Licensing Laws were introduced in response to the Gin Epidemic of the 18th century when by 1740 there was more gin being produced than beer. Legislation was more successful than a tax on gin producers because it restricted its sale to licensed only premises. Janet ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Hennessy" <ray7033@googlemail.com> > Interesting coincidence on different lists. > > Both Gavin and I said that licensing wasn't around > at the date of the original query [1841]. However > on an Irish List Dennis Ahern has been copying > the Assize records for County Cork in 1822. > > On the list of sentences is a relevant charge: > > "Timothy TOOMY, passing with unlicensed spirits, to be > imprisoned one month, and pay a fine of 10 [pounds]." > > As Ireland was subject to London's laws at the time, > maybe there actually were licensing laws in operation > in Britain then. > > Not an important point but interesting. Do you know, Janet? > > -- > Best wishes > > Ray

Interesting coincidence on different lists. Both Gavin and I said that licensing wasn't around at the date of the original query [1841]. However on an Irish List Dennis Ahern has been copying the Assize records for County Cork in 1822. On the list of sentences is a relevant charge: "Timothy TOOMY, passing with unlicensed spirits, to be imprisoned one month, and pay a fine of 10 [pounds]." As Ireland was subject to London's laws at the time, maybe there actually were licensing laws in operation in Britain then. Not an important point but interesting. Do you know, Janet? -- Best wishes Ray ********************************************************** >From Ray Hennessy Forenames website: www.whatsinaname.net Preferred Email address: ray@whatsinaname.net Hints for Scotland's People at http://bit.ly/WIAN-SCP **********************************************************

Hi Ray, Thanks, I read the message at least a couple of times before posting it and I didn't notice my mistake. Cheers Alex.

bj.davidson wrote: >... I have managed to trace back via a line of William Davidson, all farm workers, to a George Davidson of Buchanhaven, Peterhead listed in the 1841 census as aged 40, occupation Sp. dist.(which I take to be Spirits Distributor.) > Or possibly "spirits distiller" - I'm not sure the term "distributor" (in the sense of "seller") was in use at that date. >From family birth certificate records I know he married a Margaret Smart on 23-03-1826, both from Peterhead, and that he gave his occupation as 'vintner'. I grew up in N.E. Scotland from the 1940s to the 1960s and I cannot recall ever coming across 'vintner' as an occupation. Obviously, I know it means wine merchant today, but my questions are:- >a) what exactly was a 'vintner' back then? > > I think it meant much the same then as it does today - a dealer in alcoholic beverages. In older Scottish sources, it also occurs as "ventoner". This might have meant that he in effect ran an "off-licence", or perhaps that he kept a pub. It is not so long ago that landlords of pubs in Scotland were in the habit of proclaiming themselves as "retailers of wines and spirits". >b) how common was it as an occupation? > > Probably commoner than nowadays. Few of the people involved in the sale of alcohol nowadays would be liable to call themselves "vintners" or "sprit dealers", being for the most part short-term and/or part-time employees of major companies, but in the early 1800s, each pub or gin-shop was probably run by the owner. Not a few of the Ministers who contributed to the "New Statistical Account" published in the 1840s complained about the number of hostelries in their parish, and it was fairly easy to set yourself up as a vintner/spirit dealer as there were no licensing laws - if you had a little capital, and there was enough demand in the neighbourhood, you could open tomorrow. The Excise laws governing production of distilled liquor (ie whisky) had famously been relaxed a few years previously, and I imagine that keeping a pub might then have been a favoured occupation among people who had retired from more strenuous professions, or for widows, or wives with husbands away at sea. The 1851 Census of Peterhead gives a total population a little over 9,000. Of these, there are 8 who call themsleves "vintner", 4 "spirit dealers", and a further 10 who are "innkeepers" or similar, and I suspect there was a fair degree of overlap between these nominally different occupations. There were also 20 or so "merchants" - what we would nowadays call shopkeepers - some at least of whom might also have been "vintners" to the extent that they sold wines and/or spirits. >c) is it likely to have passed from father to son? > > It might have been passed on from a father to *one* of his sons (or more likely daughters - in the "alcohol-related" professions in Peterhead in 1851 there are twice as many women as men) but at a date when most families were large, it would clearly not be possible for a father to set up all of his offspring in the licensed trade. > I have traced a Charles Davidson who had a son,George, by his wife Jean Farquhar, in 1801 and who also gives his occupation as 'vintner' but the location is Inverurie. In the absence of any other George Davidson born around 1800 in the locality of Peterhead, how confident can I be that I am making the correct link to the birth of George Davidson > Well less than 100%. The coincidence of names and profession is suggestive, but I would say it was no more than that. And I have to say that "... the absence of any other George Davidson ..." is not significant. It is an unfortunate but well-documented fact that before 1855 many births/baptisms were simply not registered. >and is there any other means by which I can confirm it? > > Can you locate George in the 1851 Census? That ought to give you his parish of birth. And if he died in or after 1855, his entry in the Register of Deaths should name his parents (assuming, of course, that whoever reported the death knew his parentage). Gavin Bell

Re Vintner. -------------- Nowadays in the UK the accepted term for such an occupation might be "Off-licence seller". In those days a licence wasn't needed so there was no general term for a seller of wines & spirits. Wine was common throughout the British Isles in medieval times - it was safer to drink than water! - and the term "Vintner" was in use at least as early as the 15th century [OED] and probably long before that. Ray BTW Alex: I like your comment that many publicans & vintners had "duel occupations". Clearly they lived in dangerous times.

Brian, If you go to FreeCen and select 1941, Aberdeenshire in Census county, and enter in occupation the word vintner, you will find that there were 57 Vintners. I also tried the aforementioned and found 123 Publicans, 1 Hotel Keeper and 53 Inn keepers recorded in the census for the county of Aberdeen. A number of them were entered as Vintner/Spirit Dealer, while others were Publican/Spirit Dealer and one as Publican/Vintner and a surprising number of all categories had duel occupations and were also farmers, blacksmiths, masons, ag labourer etc. It therefore looks as if there was no hard and fast rule, although I would hazard a guess that the publicans were running public houses, while the vintners and inn keepers were managing hotels/inns. Alex.

Margaret and family still appear to be in Buchanhaven, Peterhead in the 1851 census but she is a widow with Alexander head of the family and a 'Crofter of 6ac' The youngest child is 2 so George must have died between 1849-51 which means no death certificate I'm afraid. Isobel Davidson ----- Original Message ----- From: "bj.davidson" <bj.davidson@talktalk.net> >I have just started to research the male side of my family tree and am new to the List so >I hope I am not going over old ground. Using 'Scotland's People' website I have managed >to trace back via a line of William Davidson, all farm workers, to a George Davidson of >Buchanhaven, Peterhead listed in the 1841 census as aged 40, occupation Sp. dist.(which I >take to be Spirits Distributor.) From family birth certificate records I know he married >a Margaret Smart on 23-03-1826, both from Peterhead, and that he gave his occupation as >'vintner'. I grew up in N.E. Scotland from the 1940s to the 1960s and I cannot recall >ever coming across 'vintner' as an occupation. Obviously, I know it means wine merchant >today, but my questions are:- > a) what exactly was a 'vintner' back then? > b) how common was it as an occupation? > c) is it likely to have passed from father to son? > I have traced a Charles Davidson who had a son,George, by his wife Jean Farquhar, in > 1801 and who also gives his occupation as 'vintner' but the location is Inverurie. In > the absence of any other George Davidson born around 1800 in the locality of Peterhead, > how confident can I be that I am making the correct link to the birth of George Davidson > and is there any other means by which I can confirm it? > Thanks in hopeful anticipation, > Brian Davidson ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ABERDEEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you Ray, I had wondered about Auchnavaird but wondered if this was the modern version of an old name or if the place was elsewhere in Old Deer. Mary

I can only reply to the question about the "vintner". It isn't a term used very often. They were "vintners and victuallers" but I hesitate perhaps to say it didn't include the Whisky distillers. Have a look in Google perhaps. I have come across the DAVIDSON name in the Mearns, (Kincardineshire) Janet ----- Original Message ----- From: "bj.davidson" <bj.davidson@talktalk.net> >I have just started to research the male side of my family tree and am new to the List so >I hope I am not going over old ground. Using 'Scotland's People' website I have managed >to trace back via a line of William Davidson, all farm workers, to a George Davidson of >Buchanhaven, Peterhead listed in the 1841 census as aged 40, occupation Sp. dist.(which I >take to be Spirits Distributor.) From family birth certificate records I know he married >a Margaret Smart on 23-03-1826, both from Peterhead, and that he gave his occupation as >'vintner'. I grew up in N.E. Scotland from the 1940s to the 1960s and I cannot recall >ever coming across 'vintner' as an occupation. Obviously, I know it means wine merchant >today, but my questions are:- > a) what exactly was a 'vintner' back then? > b) how common was it as an occupation? > c) is it likely to have passed from father to son? > I have traced a Charles Davidson who had a son,George, by his wife Jean Farquhar, in > 1801 and who also gives his occupation as 'vintner' but the location is Inverurie. In > the absence of any other George Davidson born around 1800 in the locality of Peterhead, > how confident can I be that I am making the correct link to the birth of George Davidson > and is there any other means by which I can confirm it? > Thanks in hopeful anticipation, > Brian Davidson

One of the Peterhead films has lists of deaths. I can have a look for him if BJ wants, next Tuesday. Goldie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Isobel Davidson" <Isobel.Davidson@tesco.net> To: <aberdeen@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 4:26 AM Subject: Re: [ABERDEEN] Davidson-vintner-Peterhead > Margaret and family still appear to be in Buchanhaven, Peterhead in the > 1851 > census but she is a widow with Alexander head of the family and a 'Crofter > of 6ac' The youngest child is 2 so George must have died between 1849-51 > which means no death certificate I'm afraid. > > Isobel Davidson > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "bj.davidson" <bj.davidson@talktalk.net> > > >>I have just started to research the male side of my family tree and am new > to the List so >>I hope I am not going over old ground. Using 'Scotland's People' website I > have managed >>to trace back via a line of William Davidson, all farm workers, to a >>George > Davidson of >>Buchanhaven, Peterhead listed in the 1841 census as aged 40, occupation >>Sp. > dist.(which I >>take to be Spirits Distributor.) From family birth certificate records I > know he married >>a Margaret Smart on 23-03-1826, both from Peterhead, and that he gave his > occupation as >>'vintner'. I grew up in N.E. Scotland from the 1940s to the 1960s and I > cannot recall >>ever coming across 'vintner' as an occupation. Obviously, I know it means > wine merchant >>today, but my questions are:- >> a) what exactly was a 'vintner' back then? >> b) how common was it as an occupation? >> c) is it likely to have passed from father to son? >> I have traced a Charles Davidson who had a son,George, by his wife >> Jean > Farquhar, in >> 1801 and who also gives his occupation as 'vintner' but the location is > Inverurie. In >> the absence of any other George Davidson born around 1800 in the locality > of Peterhead, >> how confident can I be that I am making the correct link to the birth of > George Davidson >> and is there any other means by which I can confirm it? >> Thanks in hopeful anticipation, >> Brian Davidson > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ABERDEEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ABERDEEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I just did some look-ups on the OPR films on Peterhead on DAVIDSON I have here at the FHC for someone else. I'll dig thru the notes and see what I can come up with. Can you get his death certificate? There are errors on some of them as people were upset or just didn't know who the parents were, but mostly it's good info. This would give you some info on George Davidson. Civil registration became law in 1855, so if he lived that long it would be my first choice. You can also follow the family on the census infomation. The one I followed for the other person was James Davidson, shoemaker and Helen McKenzie and their family. But I took some baptism notes down, be aware I didn't take all of them. If you send me some dates I'll see what I've got. Goldie ----- Original Message ----- From: "bj.davidson" <bj.davidson@talktalk.net> To: <aberdeen@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 2:55 AM Subject: [ABERDEEN] Davidson-vintner-Peterhead >I have just started to research the male side of my family tree and am new >to the List so I hope I am not going over old ground. Using 'Scotland's >People' website I have managed to trace back via a line of William >Davidson, all farm workers, to a George Davidson of Buchanhaven, Peterhead >listed in the 1841 census as aged 40, occupation Sp. dist.(which I take to >be Spirits Distributor.) From family birth certificate records I know he >married a Margaret Smart on 23-03-1826, both from Peterhead, and that he >gave his occupation as 'vintner'. I grew up in N.E. Scotland from the 1940s >to the 1960s and I cannot recall ever coming across 'vintner' as an >occupation. Obviously, I know it means wine merchant today, but my >questions are:- > a) what exactly was a 'vintner' back then? > b) how common was it as an occupation? > c) is it likely to have passed from father to son? > I have traced a Charles Davidson who had a son,George, by his wife Jean > Farquhar, in 1801 and who also gives his occupation as 'vintner' but the > location is Inverurie. In the absence of any other George Davidson born > around 1800 in the locality of Peterhead, how confident can I be that I am > making the correct link to the birth of George Davidson and is there any > other means by which I can confirm it? > Thanks in hopeful anticipation, > Brian Davidson > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ABERDEEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I have just started to research the male side of my family tree and am new to the List so I hope I am not going over old ground. Using 'Scotland's People' website I have managed to trace back via a line of William Davidson, all farm workers, to a George Davidson of Buchanhaven, Peterhead listed in the 1841 census as aged 40, occupation Sp. dist.(which I take to be Spirits Distributor.) From family birth certificate records I know he married a Margaret Smart on 23-03-1826, both from Peterhead, and that he gave his occupation as 'vintner'. I grew up in N.E. Scotland from the 1940s to the 1960s and I cannot recall ever coming across 'vintner' as an occupation. Obviously, I know it means wine merchant today, but my questions are:- a) what exactly was a 'vintner' back then? b) how common was it as an occupation? c) is it likely to have passed from father to son? I have traced a Charles Davidson who had a son,George, by his wife Jean Farquhar, in 1801 and who also gives his occupation as 'vintner' but the location is Inverurie. In the absence of any other George Davidson born around 1800 in the locality of Peterhead, how confident can I be that I am making the correct link to the birth of George Davidson and is there any other means by which I can confirm it? Thanks in hopeful anticipation, Brian Davidson

2009/11/13 Mary Simpson <mary@msimpson.demon.co.uk> wrote: > Can anybody tell me where Auchnaven  -  could be Auchnavend, Old Deer actually is? _______________________________________________ Hi Mary The modern map has Auchnavaird at NJ944404. Have a look at Streetmap, at http://bit.ly/auchnavaird Use the zoom control to set the scale at 1:50000 -- Best wishes Ray ********************************************************** >From Ray Hennessy Forenames website: www.whatsinaname.net Preferred Email address: ray@whatsinaname.net Hints for Scotland's People at http://bit.ly/WIAN-SCP **********************************************************

Can anybody tell me where Auchnaven - could be Auchnavend, Old Deer actually is? I have been poring over the Ord Survey 427, Peterhead & Fraserburgh map, and cannot, for the life of me, find it...... and Google cannot bring it up either. I have a Margaret Youngson born there and baptised 14th March 1790, daughter of William Youngson and Isabel Shirar. It's a bit difficult to make out the placename on the old baptismal entry. Many thanks, Mary

Hi   Wanted to also thank you  for the site you listed. I was able to add more information pertaining to Catherine McLeman and William Ritchie,George Sclater.   Vicki  --- On Sun, 11/1/09, Bill Wood <steamingbill@gmail.com> wrote: From: Bill Wood <steamingbill@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [ABERDEEN] PIRIE in Rhynie To: aberdeen@rootsweb.com Date: Sunday, November 1, 2009, 6:06 AM Hello, *I have noticed people discussing PIRIE* This site may be of some use ............. its quite stunning. http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/pirie Bill On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 5:35 AM, Brad and Jen <bradandjen@iinet.net.au>wrote: > I'd like to contact anyone researching PIRIE in Rhynie and/or anyone with > information on the following family. > > William PIRIE married Isobel GRANT on 02 June 1818 in Rhynie.  Children of > this couple are Jean 20 Sep 1818; Isobel 13 Aug 1820; Anne 15 Feb 1823; > Helen 03 Feb 1824 and William Allardyce 16 Nov 1826.  Isobel GRANT > re-married in Aug 1829 so William must have died between 1826 and 1829. > > Thanks, > Jen.  10230 > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ABERDEEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ABERDEEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Many thanks for your input Gordon. Not wishing to leave any stone unturned <groan> Janet ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Johnson" <gordon@kinhelp.co.uk> > >> Is there recorded anywhere who commissioned the most recent > engraving of a stone? > > ** The only possibility might be the firm of monumental scultors whose > company name is often inscribed at the bottom of the stone. However, > from past experience, the company's own records may not be specific - > e.g. their accounts might have a record of an additional engraving on a > stone, with the bill payable by a named person, but the account may not > make clear WHICH stone it refers to! In addition, many of these > companies destroyed old records, instead of passing them to the local > archives (you could try Aberdeen City Archives, just in case). > Gordon.