Thanks Gavin for the confirmation of the pronunciation of Oyn. Doing some google searches I found this website with some interesting photographs by Anne Burgess of the old buildings at Oyn and the surrrounding area of Drumfold ,Smallburn and Sinsharnie http://www.geograph.org.uk/search.php?i=9916581 Like all photographs by Anne the ones on this site (almost a thousand images) are quite stunning and of great interest to someone like myself as they bring to life the landscape, buildings, places and farmsteads of this area which formerly were just names on the OPRs . Well worth a look if your ancestors came from the Strathbogie area of Aberdeenshire regards George -- George Brander Torre de la Horadada España

Hello, I am used to hearing people called "Wheel wrights" and "SHip Wrights" and have always assumed it denoted someone with some specific expertise with either building wagon wheels or ships. Regards Bill On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Alan Porter <duckesq@sasktel.net> wrote: > Another reply: > > On 1 Jan 2010 at 22:26, Ray Hennessy wrote: > > > 2010/1/1 Kathleen Ogg-Moss <koggmoss@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Is a joiner and a wright the same thing? Would a person be called a > wright > > > in Scotland and a joiner in England? > > > > With trepidation I'd like to comment on Gavin's response. A wright is > > a general term for a craftsman, a workman, a maker of things: e.g > > shipwright and playwright. [source: Oxford Dictionary] > > > > It appears that there is no universal link to wood [although I suppose > > some actors give a good impression of a plank at times] but maybe the > > original usage did always presume wood-fabrication and playwright is a > > more modern extension of the usage??? . > > > > -- > > Best wishes > > > > Ray > > > > ********************************************************** > > >From Ray Hennessy > > Forenames website: www.whatsinaname.net > > Preferred Email address: ray@whatsinaname.net > > Hints for Scotland's People at http://bit.ly/WIAN-SCP > > ********************************************************** > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ABERDEEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ABERDEEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Iamhydee@aol.com wrote: > To add to the occupation question - what then, is a "square wright?" As I tried to document in a previous posting, I think he was probably much the same as a plain "wright", and the use of the term may have been regional, rather than marking any particular subdivision of the woodworking trades. > > Heidi > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ABERDEEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Ron and Laura Bozzay wrote: > Here is an interesting URL from the guild perspective. > > http://www.tradeshouse.org.uk/associated_trades/wrights/Wrights.asp > > Depending on the time period the guilds had a lot of say in how someone was classified. It depended also on the *place*. The site you quote deals with the Incorporation of Wrights of the City of Glasgow, who take pride in the fact that they were separate from the Masons and Coopers. But in other places (eg Aberdeen) the trades combined differently, so that one of the "Seven Incorporated Trades" of Aberdeen is specifically the "Wrights and Coopers", and in the neighbouring (but separate) Burgh of Old Aberdeen, the same combination is commemorated in the street name: "Wrights' and Coopers' Close". It may well be that in other Burghs, the various trades will have combined differently when organising their Guilds. Gavin Bell

Richard Johnson wrote: > I have someone who was described as a Squarewright which is a maker of > furniture. In other records he was also described as a house carpenter. There is a problem with the definition of a "squarewright". Some sources (eg the "Concise Scots Dictionary") give meanings like: "a carpenter, specifically one who makes furniture" But to anyone who knows about woodwork, this makes very little sense. The woodworking trades (in standard English usage) are divided, on a continuum of decreasing size and increasing complexity, into carpenters, joiners and cabinetmakers. And while there is a degree of overlap, you would not expect the same craftsman who raises roof-beams and lays floors to also turn out delicate inlaid credenzas. I suspect this dictionary entry was contributed by an academic whose understanding of the practical crafts was limited. The online "Dictionary of the Scots language" rather opaquely defines a "squarewright" as: "The section of the wrights craft specialising in work involving use of the carpenters square" But again, as an amateur woodworker (and as a purchaser of the woodwork of others) I would rather hope that *all* woodworkers used a setsquare, and did not just guess at their angles! Other entries in this article and others in the dictionary do not make a clear case for suggesting that the term "squarewright" applied to one specific division of the woodworkers' craft to the exclusion of others, but rather supports the idea that the word may simply be a local variation on "wright", meaning "woodworker". Gavin Bell

Bill Wood wrote: > I am used to hearing people called "Wheel wrights" and "SHip Wrights" and > have always assumed it denoted someone with some specific expertise with > either building wagon wheels or ships. That is perfectly valid in terms of the wider English language, but the original query concerned the older usage in Scots of the simple term "wright", and how it related to the English terms "carpenter" or "joiner". According to the online "Dictionary of the Scots language"*, a "wright" or "vricht" is: "one who works with wood and woodworking tools, a carpenter or joiner" which confirms that it is general term for a worker in wood. In this regard, the same dictionary's entry for "joiner" ("jyner" etc) is also illuminating: "A woodworker in gen., not restricted as in Eng. to one who does lighter or more ornamental work than a carpenter, which word is not native to Sc. usage. 'Joiner' itself has supplanted the earlier 'Wricht', from the early 19th c." Gavin Bell * which combines the wisdom of the "Scottish National Dictionary" and the "Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue", two major dictionaries which, in their printed form, occupy about a metre and a half of shelf-space and are equivalent to the "Oxford English Dictionary" in scope and authority

I have someone who was described as a Squarewright which is a maker of furniture. In other records he was also described as a house carpenter. Richard

A wheel-wright was a wheel maker or repairer, and a ship-wright was a maker or repairer of ships (aka ship's carpenter).  Both of these occupations would have required the person undertaking training through an apprenticeship, which may have lasted as long as seven years, providing them with the requisite expertise for carrying out their trade. The term wright has more or less died out now - in Scotland a person who works with wood is known as a joiner and in England the same would be known as a carpenter.  On the odd occasion that we do have a carpenter in Scotland it's usually a person who has relocated from south of the border. Alison ________________________________ From: Bill Wood To: aberdeen@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, 2 January, 2010 4:07:33 Subject: Re: [ABERDEEN] Occupation Help   ________________________________ > > > 2010/1/1 Kathleen Ogg-Moss wrote: > > > > > Is a joiner and a wright the same thing?  Would a person be called a wright > > > in Scotland and a joiner in England? > > > > With trepidation I'd like to comment on Gavin's response.  A wright is > > a general term for a craftsman, a workman, a maker of things: e.g > > shipwright and playwright.  [source: Oxford Dictionary] > > > > It appears that there is no universal link to wood [although I suppose > > some actors give a good impression of a plank at times] but maybe the > > original usage did always presume wood-fabrication and playwright is a > > more modern extension of the usage??? . > > > > -- > > Best wishes > > > > Ray Hennessy Hello, I am used to hearing people called "Wheel wrights" and "SHip Wrights" and have always assumed it denoted someone with some specific expertise with either building wagon wheels or ships. Regards Bill

To add to the occupation question - what then, is a "square wright?" Heidi

Here is an interesting URL from the guild perspective. http://www.tradeshouse.org.uk/associated_trades/wrights/Wrights.asp Depending on the time period the guilds had a lot of say in how someone was classified. Just because this group is not shown in the link above I am giving you the one for the printing guild. http://www.nls.uk/catalogues/resources/sbti/index.html Enjoy! Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Gavin Bell <g.bell@which.net> >Sent: Jan 2, 2010 3:57 AM >To: aberdeen@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [ABERDEEN] Occupation Help > >Bill Wood wrote: > > >> I am used to hearing people called "Wheel wrights" and "SHip Wrights" and >> have always assumed it denoted someone with some specific expertise with >> either building wagon wheels or ships. > > >That is perfectly valid in terms of the wider English language, but the >original query concerned the older usage in Scots of the simple term >"wright", and how it related to the English terms "carpenter" or "joiner". > >According to the online "Dictionary of the Scots language"*, a "wright" >or "vricht" is: > >"one who works with wood and woodworking tools, a carpenter or joiner" > >which confirms that it is general term for a worker in wood. > >In this regard, the same dictionary's entry for "joiner" ("jyner" etc) >is also illuminating: > >"A woodworker in gen., not restricted as in Eng. to one who does lighter >or more ornamental work than a carpenter, which word is not native to >Sc. usage. 'Joiner' itself has supplanted the earlier 'Wricht', from >the early 19th c." > > >Gavin Bell > > > >* which combines the wisdom of the "Scottish National Dictionary" and >the "Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue", two major dictionaries >which, in their printed form, occupy about a metre and a half of >shelf-space and are equivalent to the "Oxford English Dictionary" in >scope and authority > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ABERDEEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

2010/1/1 Kathleen Ogg-Moss <koggmoss@gmail.com> wrote: > Is a joiner and a wright the same thing?  Would a person be called a wright > in Scotland and a joiner in England? With trepidation I'd like to comment on Gavin's response. A wright is a general term for a craftsman, a workman, a maker of things: e.g shipwright and playwright. [source: Oxford Dictionary] It appears that there is no universal link to wood [although I suppose some actors give a good impression of a plank at times] but maybe the original usage did always presume wood-fabrication and playwright is a more modern extension of the usage??? . -- Best wishes Ray ********************************************************** >From Ray Hennessy Forenames website: www.whatsinaname.net Preferred Email address: ray@whatsinaname.net Hints for Scotland's People at http://bit.ly/WIAN-SCP **********************************************************

Kathleen Ogg-Moss wrote: > Is a joiner and a wright the same thing? Would a person be called a wright > in Scotland and a joiner in England? That is partly dependent on the time-period under consideration. "Wright" is not a term in modern use, while "joiner" still is. There may also be a difference in scope of the two terms. Traditional English usage would distinguish between a carpenter, who does the woodworking part of housebuilding, such as roofs and floors, and a joiner, who does finer work involving more complex joints, such as cupboards and rough furniture. The older Scots term wright does not make this distinction, possibly because, in smaller communities, the one woodworker would do everything. This would include making coffins, and the local wright was consequently often also the undertaker (or mortician). Gavin Bell

Another reply: On 1 Jan 2010 at 22:26, Ray Hennessy wrote: > 2010/1/1 Kathleen Ogg-Moss <koggmoss@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Is a joiner and a wright the same thing?  Would a person be called a wright > > in Scotland and a joiner in England? > > With trepidation I'd like to comment on Gavin's response. A wright is > a general term for a craftsman, a workman, a maker of things: e.g > shipwright and playwright. [source: Oxford Dictionary] > > It appears that there is no universal link to wood [although I suppose > some actors give a good impression of a plank at times] but maybe the > original usage did always presume wood-fabrication and playwright is a > more modern extension of the usage??? . > > -- > Best wishes > > Ray > > ********************************************************** > >From Ray Hennessy > Forenames website: www.whatsinaname.net > Preferred Email address: ray@whatsinaname.net > Hints for Scotland's People at http://bit.ly/WIAN-SCP > ********************************************************** > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ABERDEEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Is a joiner and a wright the same thing? Would a person be called a wright in Scotland and a joiner in England? Thanks.

Here are some good links to occupations. http://www.scotsfamily.com/occupations.htm http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?r=551&430 I think that in some cases they were the same thing but wright could also indicate a craftsman and I am not sure if that always meant a woodworker or if a craftsman could also work with other materials. Laura > [Original Message] > From: Kathleen Ogg-Moss <koggmoss@gmail.com> > To: <Perthshire@rootsweb.com>; Aberdeen List <aberdeen@rootsweb.com> > Date: 1/1/2010 11:52:45 AM > Subject: [ABERDEEN] Occupation Help > > Is a joiner and a wright the same thing? Would a person be called a wright > in Scotland and a joiner in England? > Thanks. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ABERDEEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Gavin, Thanks for your reply. My main source of information at present is that of Burkes Peerage and Landed Gentry. I have a pedigree chart, and a copy of the Book of Gardens from Aberdeenshire and Banffshire from the A&NESFHS. In this book it also states that the Gardyne/Garden/Gardin/Gardine name and variations are originally from Angus and branched out. I just thought that I might be able to get some information about some of them leaving Angus and going to other parishes. Thanks again for your reply. It is much appreciated. Regards Roslyn. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gavin Bell" <g.bell@which.net> To: <aberdeen@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 8:19 PM Subject: Re: [ABERDEEN] Re GARDEN/GARDYNE Family > Greg Garden wrote: > > >> I am wondering if someone might be able to help me please. Apparently >> our roots lie in the GARDYNE/ GARDIN/GARDEN family from Angus. > > > "Apparently?" Would you like to tell us something about the evidence > for this? The name GARDYNE is certainly recorded at an early date in > Angus, but it does not necessarily follow that all other or later > occurrences of the name are linked to the first - many names came into > existence independently in more than one place, and I would guess that > one that is linked to such a common thing as a garden, or such a common > trade as a gardener, might well have multiple beginnings. > > >> I am trying to find out when they actually arrived in Aberdeenshire >> please. I have posted an enquiry on the Angus list but to no avail. > > > The earliest record I can find is that of Simon GARDIN, who was entered > in the Burgess Roll of Aberdeen on 7th January 1471/2. But that does > not necessarily make him the first GARDIN in the Royal Burgh of Aberdeen > - only the first to be recorded in that particular source. > > >> I thought that someone on this list might be able to tell me where to >> look to see when the Angus families may have migrated to the Aberdeen >> area. > > I can't imagine any source that would tell you anything as tidy as that. > The further you go back in time, the thinner the written record > becomes, and what does survive is often a record of transfers of land. > This will typically name the parties exchanging property, but it may not > say anything about the identity or origins of the parties, or where the > rest of their family were. > > > Gavin Bell > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ABERDEEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

aberdeen-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > Many thanks to Richard and Gavin for their most helpful answers, Margie

I have ADAM in my line from Banff and Aberdeen see: http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=SHOW&db=kosmoid&recno=399 > Looking for others researching, or some suggestions for finding, > information about the family of LAWRENCE HAY WATT ADAM.> > I know that Lawrence was born July 4 1885 in Lilydate Cottage Kemnay, > Scotland and was the son of John Adam and Maggie Violet Watt.> > Lawrence married HELEN THOMPSON PATTISON on Feb. 10, 1921 in St. Paul St. > Congregational church, Aberdeen.> > Helen was the daughter of James Young Pattison and Margaret Smyth.> > Several of Helen's siblings moved to Canada but I have no indication that > Lawrence and Helen joined them. > There are no indications in Scotlands' People of a death for Lawrence or > Helen so it is possible they did not stay in Scotland. > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > Michael Ball > 1903-100 Quebec Ave > Toronto, ON, M6P 4B8 > mdball@sympatico.ca

Looking for others researching, or some suggestions for finding, information about the family of LAWRENCE HAY WATT ADAM. I know that Lawrence was born July 4 1885 in Lilydate Cottage Kemnay, Scotland and was the son of John Adam and Maggie Violet Watt. Lawrence married HELEN THOMPSON PATTISON on Feb. 10, 1921 in St. Paul St. Congregational church, Aberdeen. Helen was the daughter of James Young Pattison and Margaret Smyth. Several of Helen's siblings moved to Canada but I have no indication that Lawrence and Helen joined them. There are no indications in Scotlands' People of a death for Lawrence or Helen so it is possible they did not stay in Scotland. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Michael Ball 1903-100 Quebec Ave Toronto, ON, M6P 4B8 mdball@sympatico.ca

Hello, I came across a place called OYNE in a census form a few days ago. COuld that be a variation on the spelling ? Bill On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 1:56 AM, George Brander <george.brander@gmail.com>wrote: > I am looking for some guidance in determining the location of Oyn in the > parish of Cairnie and whether or not it still exists. It would have been a > farmsteading, probably with not more than a couple or so dwellings. > > In the second half of the 18th century my early Branders lived there and I > have a few Cairnie OPR baptismal references to Oyn. > > *"1758 John Brander** in Oyn had a child with his wife Jean Adamson called > George wit. Jerom Craigen in Oyn and George Cowe in Smallburn Oct 15th > 1758 > > * > > *"1763 John Brander in Oyn had a daughter by his wife Jean Adamson Jan 19th > 1763 baptised and called Jean before wit. Jerom Craigen and Wm ?????"* > > *"1773 John Brander had a son by his wife Isobel Hepburn in Oyn 24th May > 1773 and called John . Witnesses ?????(I think the surname of the witnesses > is “Henderson” GB Nov 2009)* > > *"1775 John Brander in Oyn had a son by his wife Isobel Hepburn Feb2 1775 > called James witnesses Al. Brander in Cair*ny *and James Brander (or > Bremner) Bracklog *" > > At the 1841 Census there were two families, both Forbes, in Oyn and it also > appears in the 1881 census. > > I found Oyn on Robert Gordon's 17th century map of Strathbogie and Aenzie. > It is on the NLS website. > > http://www.nls.uk/maps/counties/detail.cfm?id=10 > and it appears to be south southeast of Smallburn not far from Brakleys > (Brackley?) and Shyncarne (Shynsharnie?) but cannot find any trace on a > more > modern map, possibly the farm is no longer in existence. Intriguingly there > is a "Een" shown not far from Smallburn. > > Could Een be an alternative spelling for Oyn based on the local Strathbogie > pronunciation of Oyn. I am thinking of the Scots pronunciation of the > numeral one! > Any help or information gladly received. > > feliz año nuevo a todos > > George > > -- > George Brander > Torre de la Horadada > España > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ABERDEEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >