Vic wrote: > Hullo in Scotland > > Can any one help in looking up the admission registers for Aberader > school for any reference to Jane F Shaw who lived at Felagie and > would have attended that school probably between the years 1832/47 I think you mean Aberarder. This name occurs at least twice in Scotland, but from your mention of Felagie, I assume you mean the one in the parish of Crathie and Braemar If they exist, they will probably be held by Aberdeen City Archives: http://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/LocalHistory/archives/loc_ArchivesHomePage.asp but it would be unusual for any school records to survive from such an early date. Gavin Bell

On 28 February 2010 08:07, tim sewell <postmantim3@optusnet.com.au> wrote: > Ray, > > If by "discounted" you are suggesting that all LDS submissions should be ignored altogether, then I must disagree.  I would agree that a healthy scepticism may be justified. > > The IGI currently shows three entries listing the Christening of my 5g-grandfather, Joseph Suell at Great Musgrave, Westmorland, 1685 - one extracted, two submitted.  All agree on the date and father's name, but his mother's name only appears on one of the submitted entries.  The entry on the film of the relevant parish register is extremely difficult to decipher, but I did manage to verify the submitted mother's name after a fair amount of eye-straining examination.  I would give top marks to that particular submitter. _____________________________________ Fair point, Tim. I was really referring to those entries where there is *only* an LDS submission. Where is it supported by an extracted entry then usually the LDS entry can be ignored. Your case is a rare but important one where LDS did prove valuable outside their own field of interest. Of course for Scottish records we have Scotland's People who are pretty good at indexing and, where wrong [I've found two!], they are willing and anxious to correct their index. -- Best wishes Ray ********************************************************** >From                                      Ray Hennessy Forenames website:                www.whatsinaname.net Preferred Email address:         ray@whatsinaname.net Hints for Scotland's People at   http://bit.ly/WIAN-SCP **********************************************************

Hi Ray, thanks for your advice, no I didn't know you could do that, I think I'm in for some fun, now thanks again, Regards Marion Sydney On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 10:17 PM, Ray Hennessy <ray7033@googlemail.com>wrote: > On 28 February 2010 03:20, marion wakeford <marion.wakeford@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > ... I also looked for for William's father in Aberdeen and narrowed it > down to two, ... and a William ... born 24/10/1754 to John Grant and wife no > christian name surname Ingrahm. > ________________________________________ > > Hi Marion > > I clicked on the Batch number for William's birth and this set up the > film search. You probably know that for this search on the IGI you > can enter just the child's surname, in this case "GRANT". I added the > father's name "John" and got a list of 12 children of John GRANT [Take > care, it isn't necessarily just one man!!] > > When you look at the record for the first child listed, Helen GRANT b > 4 Dec 1766, you find that her mother was Christian INGRAM. If you > also look at Mary, b 7 Apr 1751, her mother is "Christ. INGRAHM". > Others just have the mother's surname. > > I think you can safely assume that William's mother was the same > Christian INGRAM/INGRAHM since his birth to Mother "INGRAHM" is > straddled by the others. > > My guess is that INGRAHM was the spelling favoured by the clerk of the > day and the mother's forename may have been indecipherable for some of > the births on the film when LDS transcribed it. > > > -- > Best wishes > > Ray > > ********************************************************** > >From Ray Hennessy > Forenames website: www.whatsinaname.net > Preferred Email address: ray@whatsinaname.net > Hints for Scotland's People at http://bit.ly/WIAN-SCP > ********************************************************** > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ABERDEEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Marion

Hullo in Scotland Can any one help in looking up the admission registers for Aberader school for any reference to Jane F Shaw who lived at Felagie and would have attended that school probably between the years 1832/47 Jill(Australia)

On 1 March 2010 11:14, marion wakeford <marion.wakeford@gmail.com> wrote: > I have another query I'm also looking at the Waddell family and I've been told that John and Elizabeth Waddell moved from Edinburgh to live at the gatehouse at Coll House near Tobermory. John Waddell was a shoemaker to Hugh MacLean. > > Do you think that means that they moved to the Isle of Coll and not Mull? ________________________________________ Hi Marion I think this is one for Gavin who is King of the Maps. However if you were told it was near Tobermory then I would have thought that Mull would be favourite. I've had a brief look at the Scottish 1890s maps on-line but haven't been able to find "Coll House". Gavin has much bigger screens on his computers so should be able to provide a better view of the placenames. When did the WADDELLs move there? A date might help a lot to decide which maps to look at. Ray

On 1 March 2010 03:20, marion wakeford <marion.wakeford@gmail.com> wrote: Re: Finding whole families on the IGI --------------------------------------------- > thanks for your advice, no I didn't know you could do that, I think I'm in for some fun, now ___________________________________________________ Hi Marion You can find out all sorts of families that way - providing they stay in the same parish, of course. If they move around you may need to look at several batches. And remember that spellings can vary from place-to-place, scribe-to-scribe and even day-to-day. Beware when only the father is named that there may be more than one man with that name inthe parish. The other thing is that each film only covers a certain period . To find out the "other" batch numbers for a parish, use the index for Family Search. I have the Scotland batch numbers from Hugh Wallis as a short url which anyone can use at http://bit.ly/IGIbatches. When you drill down to the county and then the parish, the list of batch numbers shows the dates covered. But note that some dates are covered by more than one film of each type [C for Christenings/births/baptisms & M for Marriages]. Have fun!! Ray

Ray, If by "discounted" you are suggesting that all LDS submissions should be ignored altogether, then I must disagree. I would agree that a healthy scepticism may be justified. The IGI currently shows three entries listing the Christening of my 5g-grandfather, Joseph Suell at Great Musgrave, Westmorland, 1685 - one extracted, two submitted. All agree on the date and father's name, but his mother's name only appears on one of the submitted entries. The entry on the film of the relevant parish register is extremely difficult to decipher, but I did manage to verify the submitted mother's name after a fair amount of eye-straining examination. I would give top marks to that particular submitter. Cheers, Tim S. (please delete myfairlyobviousspamtrap if you wish to reply directly) ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray Hennessy To: aberdeen@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 12:23 AM Subject: [genealogy] Re: [ABERDEEN] Morrison Hi Marion If you search the IGI for William GRANT births in Aberdeen(shire) for the period 1795 +/- 5 years, you get 15 "hits" of which four are "LDS submissions" and should be discounted.

Hi Ray, thanks very much for your help. I had looked at IGI and then Scotlandspeople and found that William, I've also found the marriage of William and Ann Castle and my William on 1851 census his first son was William and their first daughter was Mary, William's wife was Mary Stokes. Their 3rd son was Edwin John, John was the father to William born 1754. I also looked for for William's father in Aberdeen and narrowed it down to two, William born 26/9/1771 to Alexander and Cicilia Smith and a William Grant and his twin were born 24/10/1754 to John Grant and wife no christian name surname Ingrahm. When searching you really have to think outside the square don't you, I'm going to take another look on Scotlandspeople. Regards Marion Sydney Aust On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 12:23 AM, Ray Hennessy <ray@whatsinaname.net> wrote: > marion wakeford wrote: > > > My great x 3 grandfather William Grant was listed as born in Aberdeen on > the 1851 England census, and he stated that he was 55, I know I can't > assume > that he was born in Aberdeen, but do you think its worth a try? > ____________________________________ > > Hi Marion > > If you search the IGI for William GRANT births in Aberdeen(shire) for the > period 1795 +/- 5 years, you get 15 "hits" of which four are "LDS > submissions" and should be discounted. Two of the others are duplicated as > birth-plus-christening entries which leaves nine OPR entries. [numbers 1, > 4, > 6, 7/8, 9, 10/11, 13, 14 & 15] > > Only one of these is actually in Aberdeen City: 4 Apr 1791, son of William > GRANT & Ann CASTLE. This one is a bit early given the declared age in 1851 > but may still be right if he "adjusted" his age for the Census [or didn't > know it precisely]. > > The others are in outer parishes which may well have been recorded as > "Aberdeen" in the English Census since it was common to record only the > county name if born outside the county of residence. > > IF [a biggish "if"] he was baptized and hence registered in the OPR, then > your William will be one of these. With no further information, proving > which is him may be a bit difficult. One thing to try is the Scottish [and > sometimes English] naming pattern for his children. BEWARE: this is not > always followed but can be an indicator: > BOYS: > first son after the father's father, > second after the mothers father > and third after the father. > GIRLS: > first daughter after the mother's mother, > second after the father's mother > and third after the mother. > > If this leads to duplicate names then miss that stage out. > > For additional children the pattern suggests using names of uncles & aunts > and then great uncles & aunts but by that size of brood the names of > friends, local worthies, etc may be used. However this doesn't often lead > to useful detection! > > BUT BUT remember this is only a guide and it is seldom followed precisely, > if at all. > > I'll leave you to look at the IGI records and consider if any looks worth > examining further e.g. through Scotland's People. If you need more info, > let me know. > > -- > Best wishes and good luck > > Ray > > ********************************************************** > >From Ray Hennessy > Forenames website: www.whatsinaname.net > Preferred Email address: ray@whatsinaname.net > Hints for Scotland's People at http://bit.ly/WIAN-SCP > ********************************************************** > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ABERDEEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Marion

On 28 February 2010 03:20, marion wakeford <marion.wakeford@gmail.com> wrote: > > ... I also looked for for William's father in Aberdeen and narrowed it down to two, ... and a William ... born 24/10/1754 to John Grant and wife no christian name surname Ingrahm. ________________________________________ Hi Marion I clicked on the Batch number for William's birth and this set up the film search. You probably know that for this search on the IGI you can enter just the child's surname, in this case "GRANT". I added the father's name "John" and got a list of 12 children of John GRANT [Take care, it isn't necessarily just one man!!] When you look at the record for the first child listed, Helen GRANT b 4 Dec 1766, you find that her mother was Christian INGRAM. If you also look at Mary, b 7 Apr 1751, her mother is "Christ. INGRAHM". Others just have the mother's surname. I think you can safely assume that William's mother was the same Christian INGRAM/INGRAHM since his birth to Mother "INGRAHM" is straddled by the others. My guess is that INGRAHM was the spelling favoured by the clerk of the day and the mother's forename may have been indecipherable for some of the births on the film when LDS transcribed it. -- Best wishes Ray ********************************************************** >From                                      Ray Hennessy Forenames website:                www.whatsinaname.net Preferred Email address:         ray@whatsinaname.net Hints for Scotland's People at   http://bit.ly/WIAN-SCP **********************************************************

Hi Gavin, I have just read your reply regarding parishes and names where born, My great x 3 grandfather William Grant was listed as born in Aberdeen on the 1851 England census, and he stated that he was 55, I know I can't assume that he was born in Aberdeen, but do you think its worth a try? Also on his son Edwin's birth certificate it was noted that his occupation was a sawyer previously with the Merchant Service. Regards Marion Sydney Australia On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 7:51 PM, Gavin Bell <g.bell@which.net> wrote: > Anne Evans wrote: > > Hello all On a very indistinctly copy of the hand written > > certificate of marriage my George Thompson Morrison states he was > > born in Aberdeen, Scotland. States his father George Thompson > > Morrison and mother Margaret formerly Henderson. Geo. would have > > been born about 1820-22. Also indistinct. I have not been able to > > find any family with the right combination of names and dates. He was > > married in Victoria, Australia in 1857 to Sarah Willis. They came to > > NZ and I have problems there too but not on this list. !!!! Any > > direction as to where next would be most welcome. > > > Do you know when he came to Australia? It might be worth checking > whether you can find him in the 1851 Census in Scotland. This is > available via transcriptions of variable quality (and cost to access) > but I would try www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk, the online arm of the > Registrar General, who holds the original records, and offers images of > them online. > > One cautionary thought - do you know what the Australian registrar asked > concerning "Place of Birth"? In Scotland, this is always given in > terms of parish, which narrows things down quite well - but "Aberdeen" > is not the name of a parish. My suspicion is that on his Marriage > Certificate, "Aberdeen" might mean, in effect "the nearest large town > that was near your birthplace and that a non-Scot might have heard." > > Regarding the names themselves - did George (b 1820-22) have exactly the > same name as his father? And did they both have ThomPson (with a "P" as > a the middle name? Middle names were not common in Scotland in the > early 19th century, and "Thomson" is much more commonly found in > Scotland without the intrusive "P". So when searching, I would look for > "George Thomson" (although, of course, that was a relatively common name). > > > Gavin Bell > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ABERDEEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Marion

marion wakeford wrote: > My great x 3 grandfather William Grant was listed as born in Aberdeen on the 1851 England census, and he stated that he was 55, I know I can't assume that he was born in Aberdeen, but do you think its worth a try? ____________________________________ Hi Marion If you search the IGI for William GRANT births in Aberdeen(shire) for the period 1795 +/- 5 years, you get 15 "hits" of which four are "LDS submissions" and should be discounted. Two of the others are duplicated as birth-plus-christening entries which leaves nine OPR entries. [numbers 1, 4, 6, 7/8, 9, 10/11, 13, 14 & 15] Only one of these is actually in Aberdeen City: 4 Apr 1791, son of William GRANT & Ann CASTLE. This one is a bit early given the declared age in 1851 but may still be right if he "adjusted" his age for the Census [or didn't know it precisely]. The others are in outer parishes which may well have been recorded as "Aberdeen" in the English Census since it was common to record only the county name if born outside the county of residence. IF [a biggish "if"] he was baptized and hence registered in the OPR, then your William will be one of these. With no further information, proving which is him may be a bit difficult. One thing to try is the Scottish [and sometimes English] naming pattern for his children. BEWARE: this is not always followed but can be an indicator: BOYS: first son after the father's father, second after the mothers father and third after the father. GIRLS: first daughter after the mother's mother, second after the father's mother and third after the mother. If this leads to duplicate names then miss that stage out. For additional children the pattern suggests using names of uncles & aunts and then great uncles & aunts but by that size of brood the names of friends, local worthies, etc may be used. However this doesn't often lead to useful detection! BUT BUT remember this is only a guide and it is seldom followed precisely, if at all. I'll leave you to look at the IGI records and consider if any looks worth examining further e.g. through Scotland's People. If you need more info, let me know. -- Best wishes and good luck Ray ********************************************************** >From Ray Hennessy Forenames website: www.whatsinaname.net Preferred Email address: ray@whatsinaname.net Hints for Scotland's People at http://bit.ly/WIAN-SCP **********************************************************

marion wakeford wrote: > Hi Gavin, > I have just read your reply regarding parishes and names where born, My > great x 3 grandfather William Grant was listed as born in Aberdeen on the > 1851 England census, and he stated that he was 55, I know I can't assume > that he was born in Aberdeen, but do you think its worth a try? Most genealogy involves "trying" searches that may not turn out to be successful. I can't offer any guarantees! But if you do try to find William (whose name, I regret to say, is a fairly common one) in the town of Aberdeen, note that the ancient town parish of Aberdeen is called St Nicholas, and that the town expanded, from the late 18th century, into the neighbouring parish of Old Machar. Gavin Bell

Hi Ray The link below will take you to an index to Assisted Immigration to Victoria. Just enter the name of the ship, Bloomer, and year 1854, This will give you a list of passengers on arrival including James & Margaret GRANT. http://proarchives.imagineering.com.au/index_search.asp?searchid=24 Curiously the Unassisted Inward Passenger List to Victoria has the Bloomer arriving in August 1854 and this has a Geo GRANT age 25. It would be necessary to look at the actual passenger lists to work out whats going on. I'm not sure whether a ship carried both Assisted and Unassisted Migrants, if it did then there would be 2 lists but they should have the same date. It may be a transcription error. http://proarchives.imagineering.com.au/index_search.asp?searchid=23 Andy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Hennessy" <ray@whatsinaname.net> To: <aberdeen@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 2:35 AM Subject: Re: [ABERDEEN] DEATH REG. GRANT Australia > Hi again Jenny > > My lad has let me know that the James and Norman GRANT on the Ellon MI > are listed as Norman MELDRUM's grandsons ["died in infancy"] but > doesn't say if they died in Australia or in the UK where they aren't > registered. > > I haven't found the passenger list for the "Bloomer" on which James > GRANT & Margaret MELDRUM sailed from Liverpool 20 July 1854 so don't > know if they took any children with them. > > -- > Best wishes > > Ray >

On 24 February 2010 23:42, Andy Candlish <andycandlish@ozemail.com.au> wrote: > The link below will take you to an index to Assisted Immigration to Victoria. Just enter the name of the ship, Bloomer, and year 1854, This will give you a list of passengers on arrival including James & Margaret GRANT. > > http://proarchives.imagineering.com.au/index_search.asp?searchid=24 > > Curiously the Unassisted Inward Passenger List to Victoria has the Bloomer arriving in August 1854 and this has a Geo GRANT age 25. It would be necessary to look at the actual passenger lists to work out whats going on. I'm not sure whether a ship carried both Assisted and Unassisted Migrants, if it did then there would be 2 lists but they should have the same date. It may be a transcription error. > > http://proarchives.imagineering.com.au/index_search.asp?searchid=23 _______________________________ Thanks Andy. These are very useful Immigration records. The difference in arrival dates of James [aged 24] & Margaret [23] in November and George [25] in August 1854 is a bit odd. Am I right to suppose that Bloomer was unlikely to have arrived twice 3 months apart - or am I being naive and the passenger ships could make journeys that frequently?? There is a James who would be exactly the right age, christened 1.1.1830 so born at the end of 1829. He has an older sister, Anne, in 1825 and a younger brother, Hugh, in 1835, parents James GRANT and Anne HARPER, parish Birse. It looks very likely that this is the right James GRANT although without digging further, this may not be true. If this is James GRANT who went to Australia, then George GRANT does not appear to be related to him as there is no record of him in the IGI. There are several George GRANT births around 1827-1831 but none of them have the same parents nor are they born in the same parish. Gwen WARNE who supplied the initial data in 1990 didn't have the same information about James's parentage. She suggests his father was Alexander GRANT [no details] - presumably from James's 1901 Death Certificate?. She had Margaret MELDRUM's parents & grandparents correctly but they may have been easier to find. I don't know what researching was like 20 years ago but I doubt it was as easy as it is [sometimes] today. -- Best wishes & thanks again. Ray ********************************************************** >From Ray Hennessy Forenames website: www.whatsinaname.net Preferred Email address: ray@whatsinaname.net Hints for Scotland's People at http://bit.ly/WIAN-SCP **********************************************************

Ray, If you have any Australian details forward them to me and I will endeavour to find information for you. Regards Jenny

Hello all On a very indistinctly copy of the hand written certificate of marriage my George Thompson Morrison states he was born in Aberdeen, Scotland. States his father George Thompson Morrison and mother Margaret formerly Henderson. Geo. would have been born about 1820-22. Also indistinct. I have not been able to find any family with the right combination of names and dates. He was married in Victoria, Australia in 1857 to Sarah Willis. They came to NZ and I have problems there too but not on this list. !!!! Any direction as to where next would be most welcome. Anne, NZ

Hi again Jenny My lad has let me know that the James and Norman GRANT on the Ellon MI are listed as Norman MELDRUM's grandsons ["died in infancy"] but doesn't say if they died in Australia or in the UK where they aren't registered. I haven't found the passenger list for the "Bloomer" on which James GRANT & Margaret MELDRUM sailed from Liverpool 20 July 1854 so don't know if they took any children with them. -- Best wishes Ray ********************************************************** >From Ray Hennessy Forenames website: www.whatsinaname.net Preferred Email address: ray@whatsinaname.net Hints for Scotland's People at http://bit.ly/WIAN-SCP **********************************************************

On 24 February 2010 12:43, Jenny Myers <jenm@exemail.com.au> wrote: > If you have any Australian details forward them to me and I will endeavour to find information for you. > > Regards Jenny ___________________________________________ Hi Jenny I don't have any details yet about Norman GRANT who appears on the gravestone for Sheena's grandmother [Mary Ann MELDRUM/BISHOP] - I have a young laddie looking for it for me! Gwen WARNE posted her family chart to ANESFHS in 1990 but she is no longer a member. She gave only her own ancestors, including Mary Ann GRANT, born 1862. I have assumed that Norman GRANT [presumably named after Margaret GRANT's father Norman MELDRUM] is 'our' Mary Ann MELDRUM/BISHOP's nephew. Norman GRANT's birth isn't listed in th IGI between 1851 [marriage of his parents] & 1854 [emigration to Portland, Victoria]. Unless I am missing something, the IGI doesn't have Australasian records so I know no more about him. Remember that he isn't a direct ancestor so please don't expend too much effort to find him. I'd certainly like more information if only to spread our understanding of the wider family tree and we'll be very grateful for any information that's easy to come by of him and/or any siblings. Thanks again for your interest. -- Best wishes Ray ********************************************************** >From Ray Hennessy Forenames website: www.whatsinaname.net Preferred Email address: ray@whatsinaname.net Hints for Scotland's People at http://bit.ly/WIAN-SCP **********************************************************

Gavin This is the comment of the Commission on your query: "Although I would still be interested to know what sort of date the court was liable to "determine" - was it the start of the cohabitation, or the 5th anniversary, or what?" "The law on marriage by cohabitation with habit and repute gives rise to a number of difficulties. First, what is a sufficient length of cohabitation? No firm answer can be given. It was stated in the Inner House in 1909 that a period of 10 months was not enough. " More recently, however, a period of 10 months and 23 days was accepted as sufficient in the Outer House. Secondly, what is sufficient reputation? Again no firm answer can be given. The fact that a few people know that the cohabitants have never been regularly married will not necessarily prevent a marriage, but the repute of marriage must be "substantially unvarying and consistent". Thirdly, when will the presumption of tacit consent be rebutted? Clearly the presumption will be rebutted if both parties deny, credibly, that they ever intended to get married. Indeed, as both parties must consent, it should be sufficient if one party denies ever having had matrimonial intent, provided that he or she is believed. .......... A further problem is that of fixing the date of the marriage. There are cases and dicta which tend to push the date of the marriage back to the earliest possible date -for example, the date when cohabitation began or when an impediment to the marriage is removed -but, as a matter of logic, it seems odd to regard a marriage as constituted before the requirements for it (including a sufficient period of cohabitation in Scotland while the parties are free to marry) have been fulfilled. It was for these reasons that the Commission recommended its abolition but this was not implemented. Other recommendations were enacted in the Children (Scotland) Act 1995 relating to parental responsibilities and guardianship. John

On 24 February 2010 08:32, Isobel Davidson <isobel.davidson@tesco.net> wrote: > Have you seen the gravestone at Ellon?  From the MI index there appear to be 2 Mary Anns on it with the same death date.  I can go and look - if it is not buried under more snow! Hi Isobel Yes, I did know about that inscription. Havn't actually been to see it yet but as we will be there in the summer for a change we may well have a look. The family on that stone is Norma MELDRUM's. The reason Mary Ann is on twice would be because she is Mary Ann BISHOP née MELDRUM. James GRANT was married to her sister Margaret in 1851. In 1854 they went to Australia which may be where Norman GRANT was born. [I haven't found a source for Aussie records - they aren't on the IGI as far as I can tell.] I'm not sure why Margaret GRANT [née MELDRUM] isn't recorded on the MI. My initial thought was that possibly she came home after being widowed and had the stone erected. But she actually died 8 years before her husband so that can't be the reason. It's a mystery. An early member of ANESFHS recorded the Australian branch and there is no sign that any of them came back to Britain. Thanks for the offer of looking at the stone for us. Judging by the reports from Aberdeenshire, it could be a few weeks before the snow goes. We'll be there in June and hope it will have gone by then! I'll bring a shovel. -- Best wishes Ray ********************************************************** >From                                      Ray Hennessy Forenames website:                www.whatsinaname.net Preferred Email address:         ray@whatsinaname.net Hints for Scotland's People at   http://bit.ly/WIAN-SCP **********************************************************